My Problem With Tolerance

[Ezio Auditore 702]

"Love and Tolerate"

 

It's an interesting motto isn't it? Sounds great when you first hear it, some people try to live by it, most Bronies seem to promote it. I can see how it would be appealing, but I don't think that "tolerance" is the way to go, I would much prefer "Love and Respect." Let me explain,

 

Tolerance at an institutional level can be very dangerous, because it voids judgement. Tolerating something implies that you accept something, and withhold judgement from that thing. If you're disagreeing with something that means you are passing judgement on it, and therefore not tolerating it at all. This can be extremely harmful to a society, especially in the facet of justice, imagine there was a rape case, and at the end of it the judge said "Well we've caught the guy, he's definitely guilty,but seeing as how we've had laws against rape for hundreds of years and haven't eradicated it, we're just going to have to tolerate this sort of thing, it just happens." At this point it seems to be we have a problem with tolerance that people would instantly react against.

 

Most of us tend to think of tolerance as a positive word, but in reality we all define it negatively. Let's say I was visiting your town, and you invite me over, take me out to eat, and give me a nice meal, and room to stay in, and the next day you overhear me speaking to someone else and they ask how the people I stayed with were and I replied "Oh yes, they were very tolerable." Would you feel good? Would you be happy? 

 

It's very interesting, we talk about tolerance, but I know of no one that wants to be tolerated, and I know very many people who want to be respected.

 

If you're tolerating something, in the way we typically define it today, you are merely accepting what people say, but you cannot disagree with someone and tolerate them, but you can respect them, and disagree with them

 

So instead of having big debates about what tolerance is or isn't, we should begin asking what it really means to treat another person with respect, because I desperately want to live in a society, where we can respect each other as individuals, even though we may disagree at certain levels of ideas.

[Archi the Atmomancer 564]

I agree with you on every point. However, I think that - in some respects - the word tolerance in this community is used in the respectful sense that you're talking about here; at least, that's how I use it.

 

But yes, the word "tolerate" does have negative connotations in that it suggests you're just putting up with someone rather than accepting that their thoughts and feelings are just as valid as your own.

[Ezio Auditore 702]

 

 

I agree with you on every point. However, I think that - in some respects - the word tolerance in this community is used in the respectful sense that you're talking about here; at least, that's how I use it.

 

I agree, and I'm not accusing anyone of trying to be mean by the use of tolerance, I just find that the word has strings attached to it, that not many in this community seem to consider, and I wouldn't want someone to be misrepresented through "tolerance"

[Arctic Night 884]

I agree with this post 100%. As someone who is willing to criticize potentially offensive, fallacious, or misleading messages in a scientific manner, it's very frustrating to hear people demand that I "tolerate" things, whether it is the spreading of false information or obvious scams. This does not mean however that I cannot "respect" people who fall for scamming.

 

I've always thought the "love and tolerate" thing was ridiculous, mostly because I thought it silly that we'd be attaching moral or philosophical doctrines to an internet fandom, but also because I've always thought the message itself was inherently flawed.

 

tolerate |ˈtäləˌrāt|
verb [ trans. ]
allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference : a regime unwilling to tolerate dissent.

 

Is there really no point in which we'd need to interfere in an event and say "this is morally wrong?" Would you "tolerate" your neighbor bashing your car windows?

 

It's something to think about.

[ShadowPirateX 600]

"Love and Respect". That has a much better ring to it, don't you think?

When you put the word "Tolerate" like that, it does indeed make more sense to use "respect".

[Discordian 6,015]

While I agree on your tolerance points I don't agree about changing it to respect. I don't believe respect is something we should automatically give to people. I don't think anyone deserves respect by default. I have a very high threshold for who I do and don't respect.

 

I prefer to treat others with courtesy, which is an entirely different concept.

[Arctic Night 884]

While I agree on your tolerance points I don't agree about changing it to respect. I don't believe respect is something we should automatically give to people. I don't think anyone deserves respect by default. I have a very high threshold for who I do and don't respect.

 

I prefer to treat others with courtesy, which is an entirely different concept.

My proposition is to have a fan motto that doesn't involve any sort of "command," if that makes sense. "Friendship is Magic." That should be the motto.

 

Although "love and be courteous" does sound pretty creative.

[Pinkamena-Pills 6,839]

The motto "Love and Tolerate" isn't going to change in the fandom. Ever. Especially to "Respect".

 

 

Deal with it.

(or you can just not care in all honesty)

[Discordian 6,015]

My proposition is to have a fan motto that doesn't involve any sort of "command," if that makes sense. "Friendship is Magic." That should be the motto.

 

Although "love and be courteous" does sound pretty creative.

I honestly don't agree with any part of the love and tolerate motto anyway. I can't and won't force myself to love or tolerate anything. If I don't like someone or something I'm just gonna keep on not liking it.

[Troblems 5,617]

I don't see tolerance and respect being mutually exclusive. If you take tolerance in the sense of I'm going to put up with you, I think it's rather fitting. There are going to be bronys you don't like, because there will always be people you don't like. That doesn't mean you don't respect them.

 

Also, I'm going to love and respect the shit out of you just doesn't have the same "umph" to it.

[Ezio Auditore 702]

I don't see tolerance and respect being mutually exclusive. If you take tolerance in the sense of I'm going to put up with you, I think it's rather fitting. There are going to be bronys you don't like, because there will always be people you don't like. That doesn't mean you don't respect them.

 

Also, I'm going to love and respect the shit out of you just doesn't have the same "umph" to it.

 

I used to think that tolerance and respect were pretty much synonymous, but the disjointing at the aspect of disagreement, I believe, separates the two terms almost completely. Tolerance, basically implies disagreement, as you don't tolerate things you like but at the point of overt disagreement, tolerance ceases to exist, since you are now passing a judgement. 

 

Since I think disagreements over things are healthy, and promote positive changes, the ability to disagree must remain in tact, and it is my contention that with a "tolerant" society this would be implausible, but a society that can have disagreements, but still express a mutual respect for the individual, I think, will prosper.

[Arctic Night 884]

I don't see tolerance and respect being mutually exclusive. If you take tolerance in the sense of I'm going to put up with you, I think it's rather fitting. There are going to be bronys you don't like, because there will always be people you don't like. That doesn't mean you don't respect them.

 

Also, I'm going to love and respect the shit out of you just doesn't have the same "umph" to it.

 

*Sees neighbor lighting my car on fire.*

 

"Oh well. Everyone's different."

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

That's why I extend the motto to " love and tolerate anything that's not hurting anything"

[Stalliongrad 982]

I don't think we will see the "Love and Respect" thing happen for a while and quite frankly id say I have to disagree with you a bit. I think to some degree we all practice tolerance that is the appropriate thing to do. But I cant "Love" everyone. There will be people you meet everyday that will piss you off, you have nothing in common with and no desire to get to know. I have tried the love and respect thing to be scorned over and over and I don't believe in it really. I think we should all respect one another and tolerate each other but you cannot force love.... ever. The sense of the word Love in this sense needs to be exaggerated for it to conform to the standard we are applying it in. Nobody gets up and just wants to hug everyone. The sad reality is there are some crazy people out there. There are thieves, violent individuals, liars, cheaters all who will use your kindness as a weapon against you if given the chance. And the problem arises when people who were raised in a sheltered environment really believe the world is all "Love one another" and whatnot. They get let down and that seriously impacts their view of man. We ... well at least I cant ever afford to let my guard down for everyone. I once extended a gesture of friendship and compassion to a stranger and in return I was carjacked at gunpoint. I do not like to be alone in parking lots and I have a fear of them. I still have nightmares. I wont make that mistake again. I think for the concept of love and tolerance to become reality, walls need to be knocked over and we need to communicate better. I can love anyone if I get to know you and I really trust you. Some people are just crooked and always will be.  For these people the most courtesy I can extend is tolerance. The sense of community that exists in some areas of the world is there because everyone is on the same playing field.

[Sceethe 704]

i live by the simple motto of:

if it doesnt harm me or anyone else in any way whatsoever,i will not speak against it. i am allowed to have my own opinion about it and dislike it though!

 

a good example would be r34:although i really do not see the appeal of it, since its not hurtful to me or others in any way, i will not speak negatively about it.

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

Here's something The Round Stable put up about the same issue. They even use examples from the show on why it's wrong.

 

http://www.roundstable.com/2012/06/20/love-tolerance-and-other-myths/

Edited July 10, 2014 by Wind Chaser

[Justin_Case001 4,889]

I love topics like this.  Regularly rethinking and redefining things like this is how we continue to grow as individuals and as a species.  It's how we keep our minds open to new ideas.  I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other.  I just like to see these sort of discussions.  In the end, we all just want things to be moar better, and that's what matters.

 

If you're tolerating something, in the way we typically define it today, you are merely accepting what people say, but you cannot disagree with someone and tolerate them, but you can respect them, and disagree with them

That said, I tend to disagree with this part.  I believe you can absolutely disagree with someone and still tolerate them.  You can also respect and disagree.  You can also disagree, tolerate, but not respect.  There are many people whom I disagree with but still respect and tolerate.  There are also many people whom I disagree with, tolerate, but do not respect.  I can disagree with someone, but still put up with them if they're not hurting anyone.  But I might not respect them.  Respect is more difficult to earn.  But I always treat others with respect, regardless of how I truly feel inside.

 

Ooh, this is a good opportunity for some fun with "if-then" statements!  I love these.  Let's take a look at which ones would be true for me.

 

Initial statement:  If I respect someone, then I tolerate them.  (True)

Converse statement:  If I tolerate someone, then I respect them.  (Not necessarily true)

Inverse statement:  If I do not respect someone, I do not tolerate them.  (Not necessarily true)

Contrapositive statement:  If I do not tolerate someone, I do not respect them.  (True)

 

Well, nuts.  I've always wanted to find an if-then statement where all four are true.  I've never done it.  The most common is to have the initial and contrapositive be true.

 

Anyway, fun stuff.

[Zekromic 1,054]

Discussed many times, but I stand my point, people seems to mix acceptance with tolerance, South Park taught me acceptance is the way to go

[Ezio Auditore 702]

 

 

That said, I tend to disagree with this part.  I believe you can absolutely disagree with someone and still tolerate them.  You can also respect and disagree.  You can also disagree, tolerate, but not respect.  There are many people whom I disagree with but still respect and tolerate.  There are also many people whom I disagree with, tolerate, but do not respect.  I can disagree with someone, but still put up with them if they're not hurting anyone.  But I might not respect them.  Respect is more difficult to earn.  But I always treat others with respect, regardless of how I truly feel inside.

 

I think I phrased that a bit weird. You can tolerate someone and absolutely disagree with them, in fact tolerance, usually, implies disagreement. The problem comes with the outward expression of disagreement. If you are, say, having a debate with someone, and you say "I disagree" then you are not tolerating them, you are then in respectful disagreement.

 

Of course this is just how I look at it, it all boils down to semantics after a certain point.

[SkyDream 315]

I'm rather partial to the Witches Rede, "an it harm none, do as ye will." Fairly self-explanatory.

 

Obligatory short but sweet "I agree with most of the opinions here," because all the good opinions have been taken.

[IcyHaze 594]

I don't respect bigots and racists, but I do tolerate them. Most of the time.

Edited July 10, 2014 by IcyHaze

[Celli 4,338]

I totally agree with you. I never cared for the motto. I'm not going to tolerate someone who insults me for liking a show.

[Solid 1,327]

I tolerate and respect ideologies, irrational or not, but I don't tolerate people who go out of bound and harm innocent souls for their own personal gain, like some of the haters.

 

This quote of Valkyrie from my fanfic sums my point up pretty well. (Yep she's Russian :3)

 

"We do not fight them because of their Hatred for colorful horses; We fight them because of the consequences of their Ignorance."

                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                         - Valkyrie Voyevoda, Blue Butterflies - Compilation

Edited July 22, 2014 by Solid Scorpion

[Linds 34]

For me "Love & Tolerance" shouldn't exist, because this isn't a real motto of the show. The real motto is "Friendship is magic". I will tell you more - in the show we can find things proving that there are examples of intolerance.

For me "L&T" is just a sentence created on 4chan just for trolling people, which was accidentaly taken as a main motto of the show and brony fandom.

 

 

I don't know how does it looks in your places, but in Poland on the start there were people trying to accomodate the motto. But we've found that is impossible. Why?

 

Firstly - people couldn't understand what is the real meaning of tolerance and there were stupid situations like "I don't like him, he's making me nervous, but I will just sit silencely. I can't tell him/her anything, because it would be intolerant". NO. The show is teaching us that one of the most important parts of friendship is HONESTY. A true friend should tell us if there is something wrong.

 

Secondly - in the society there are unacceptable behaviors. And people behaving like that cannot be tolerated. Example: Once upon a time there was a one 19-years-old guy appearing to Warsaw Ponymeets. On the first time, he was just too loud about yaoi and porn in public place. A little more and our group would have a problems with the menager of the KFC we were sitting then. Later those guy came back his home, apologized on the forum. Ok, so he gained another chance. What has he did? He haven't been only so loudly - he was offending one pegasis without a reasons, with more vulgar name for prostitute*... But ok, he later came back home, apologized, gained another chance.

Third chance. Last chance. Then he did the worst thing.

During ponymeet he suddenly tried to take a pocket knife from one pegasister, who was examinating this. Thanks to him, the girl had a cutted arm in one place. Some seconds later he decided to shoot it through the room in the KFC - thanks to that at least 4 people was close to have a new "souvenirs" in their face. Then the cup of bitterness have overflowed. The guy was banned from ponymeets in Warsaw.

He tried anything to make us wanting to invite him back. Starting from apologizes, coming through blackmailing and trying to tell us his behavior was just a trolling or effects of sitting with otaku (sorry, but in Poland otaku aren't making such problems!), using face-accounts to defend himself, finishing on coming to every other local fandoms in Poland (for example Facebook group "Bronies Polska") asking for help, because "Very bad Warsaw doesn't want to allow him to come to their meetups!". He didn't explained the reasons of his permban. So I had to be the one, who did it and now, those guy is hated not only among Varsovian otaku, but between most Polish bronies too.

 

In my opinion, ponies are for everybody, but the fandom isn't for everybody. If there is person forming a danger in the group of people, who only want to spend time with friends, those person should be deleted from the group - forming a danger CANNOT be tolerated.

 

 

* Dear mods, I'm not perfect in English and I don't know your culture perfect. If those word is too hard, just please, correct me. I don't want to offend anybody.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Linds

[Fractured 2,684]

I don't quite like the word "tolerate"... to me, it signifies dismissal. It signifies that we're going to just roll over whenever someone tries to pick a fight. It signifies that we're unwilling to try to change people. (Maybe it's for the best though, I have a tough time believing people can change.)