Male Ponies' Jobs/Roles and Gender Equality

[Wishing Star 27]

From the first few episodes of MLP:FiM I've noticed a distinct difference in how jobs and placement in society are assigned to male and female ponies. And yes, I understand this is a show marketed towards girls, so naturally the female characters should have a more prominent role. As a feminist myself, however, I believe in gender equality, and that female supremacy is not actually a good thing. In MLP: FiM males seem to be put down and held back over and over again. 

Small disclaimer: I don't take the show seriously enough that this actually bothers me, for me MLP is a way to unwind and get in touch with my inner child. But as a female brony, I am very curious about what you men have to say about this and what effect it has (if any) on your opinion of the show.

 

Let's look at some examples: 

• Big Mac - barely speaks, manual labor only
• Flim and Flam - practically villans, sleazy con men that get what they deserve
• Snip and Snails - uncoordinated, easily manipulated, blissfully unaware of their own failures
• Prince Blueblood - high status, but he's a jerk
• Shining Armor - probably the strongest male character in the show, but always secondary to Cadence. His primary role is loving, supporting, and being saved by her.
• Spike - forced to stay a baby because his female friends/providers/captors (we don't even know how they got his egg in the first place) would rather he remain obedient and manageable instead of completing a natural life cycle It was brought to my attention that Spike was growing because of his greed, not purely by nature, making this point moot. Unless anyone has a theory on where his egg came from.
• Finally my favorite: "Over a Barrel" Season 1 Episode 21 - in the first few seconds we see four male ponies pulling a train carrying the Mane 6. (I have looked for more train-pulling scenes, this seems to be the only one.   )

I wouldn't be bothered by any of this if the females were given the same treatment. Even the females that are easy to dislike (Trixie, Glinda, Diamond Tiara, etc) all have a decent amount of strength and prestige, and they only clash with, or are defeated by, other females.

Also all small-time service jobs in the show are dominated by males from taxi-pulling to waiting tables. This is especially discouraging because it reinforces the negative stigma of those jobs having lesser value along with female supremacy.

One more side question: According to the Brony Study, a very high percentage of male Bronies value traditional gender roles. Despite that, why does a female-dominated society appeal to you?

I hope I'm not raising any sensitive topics, I love MLP and I love all of you. If I'm being honest, one of the main reasons I love the Brony movement is because of how fabulously unique it is. I just want to get inside your heads! 

Edited September 1, 2014 by Wishing Star

[Pastel 7,630]

I am very curious about what you men have to say about this and what effect it has (if any) on your opinion of the show.

 

Personally, that doesn't bother me much. I don't really care about it even if it's true: there isn't a gender equality in the show. Maybe because the characters are ponies and not humans.

I don't pay attention to the male characters' roles, however I find annoying there're almost no main characters who are male...

I wish there were more male characters, regardless of their jobs/roles.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Blobulle

[lelouch. 625]

Im really not bothered by it at all. It's the mane 6's personalities that appeal to me. And shining armour doesnt seem to have a secondary role in my case. And ive always thought of the guys in equestria to be in the gaurds section. And in canterlot there are a lot of males who aren't run down and broke. Like fancy pants etc.

[RockinRarity 1,605]

Personally, that doesn't bother me much. I don't really care about it even if it's true: there isn't a gender equality in the show. Maybe because the characters are ponies and not humans.

I don't pay attention to the male characters' roles, however I find annoying there're almost no main characters who are male...

I wish there were more male characters, regardless of their jobs/roles.

 

This is pretty much how I feel as well. But with an addition.

 

The men who like this show don't seem to be bothered by any of the examples mentioned in the OP.

 

However, several of them are severely bothered by Flash Sentry, despite the fact that, if you think about it, he really isn't all that different from the rest of the male characters who have appeared in the show.

 

I think that part of the reason why guys are bothered by Flash is because he was introduced in Equestria Girls (which a good chunk of the fandom dislikes by principle) and also because he is a waifu thief. But those aren't the /only/ reasons. Most people dislike his blandness and the fact that he is the love interest to the mane character who doesn't appear to be much more than a typical guitar hottie.

 

But if you think about it, Flash Sentry is the male embodiment of the female character (in a different show/movie/story/whatever) who is only defined by her relationships with the male characters.

 

That's kind of the nature of secondary characters, however. There isn't enough time to flesh them out in-depth, so the writers take shortcuts and define characters based off their relationships with the main characters. Unfortunately, this can have a sexist connotation to it.

 

If the show wants to aim towards equality among genders, then the male characters simply need to have more prominent roles, roles that are not defined by their relationships with the female characters, but are independent from them. Of course, this would take time away from the show's mane characters, so I doubt that this would be happening anytime soon. Not that it's a terrible thing if they never did strive for a more equal approach to the male characters, because I don't think that this will be starting a trend anytime soon. But it would be nice.

[Kulstor 254]

I guess the writers have not noticed, or maybe they don't care, that instead of just being aimed at girls they have made a society where males are 2nd citizens sort of place instead of showing one where both genders are equal.  That is to bad.  They could give a more positive message with both being equal. 

[Gernia 691]

I don't think it's a problem (except maybe for Snips and Snails, but I still think it's a relatively minor thing). I always saw this show as being pro-female. I never considered it to be anti-male at all.

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

None of these characters bother me that much, with the exception of Spike to an extent. Big Macintosh is actually a really great character. There's nothing wrong with him just because he's a hard-working silent type. That's just his personality. He seems perfectly content and I doubt he's being put down in any form. Shining is captain of the Royal Guard and is just as useful as Cadance. The two of them seem to be a team that works best when they are together.

 

 I do have a problem with Spike a bit. I like him as a character, but I sometimes feel like he's just used for comedic relief and they don't give him enough credit. He's Twilight's best friend/assistant/little brother/emotional support. He can be surprisingly mature at times and knows how to keep Twilight calm when she's freaking out over something. Sure he can be a bit childish or selfish, and has some identity issues with being a dragon living among ponies, but that's part of his character. I wish the writers would give him a bit more respect.

 

 I don't care too much about the others though. Flim and Flam were amusing antagonists, but others like Snips and Snails or Blueblood don't matter that much to me.

[AlbaTross 1,586]

I saw a video a while ago that analyzed this very topic. I can't remember the name of it, but I think it was posted here by another user. The guy who did that video made some pretty good arguments. He thinks the pony population is 50% male, but the reason why we don't see males as often is because they're off playing masculine roles in the society they live in and holding down corresponding professions. For example, Ponyville is an agrarian town. As such, the town revolves around farming. Sure, the Apple Family all work together on their apple farm, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility that other crops are grown nearby. Like with many towns built around a particular industry, the farming profession could be male dominated.

 

There would obviously be mares tending to fields, but I imagine more stallions would go for that kind of work. So, that would leave most of the jobs in town to most of the mare population, with a couple exceptions, like Mr. Cake. We do see a lot of stallions around town during holidays and festivals, so they could just be off working. We also don't see as many stallions because the Mane Six are mares, and are less likely to interact with them unless they're family members or love interests. Canterlot is a similar story. It seems that a good portion of stallions head into the royal guard. Again, that's a role typically though of as masculine. It seems about half of the upper class ponies milling about are stallions though.

 

Obviously this vid was part of a series that overanalyzes everything about MLP:FiM for the sake of promoting discussion, but I think the guy who made it is onto something. It seems that the prevailing theory though is that the pony population is 2/3 female. Because this is a topic that's firmly in head canon territory, there's definitely room for interpretation.

 

The portrayal of colts and stallions in this series doesn't bother me though. Snips and Snails are colts, so their clumsy nature doesn't bother me. Spike is a baby dragon, but as a main cast member, I do wish he was treated with more dignity. The writers tend to give him the short end of the stick for episodes, and he's often written out of major plots due to staying behind, or some other underlying reason. He almost had his moment in the Nightmare Rarity arc in the comics, but Heather Nuhfer trolled us by having Pinkie Pie save the day instead. When will Spike ever be the hero? I guess there's the Power Ponies episode.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Tross

[Wishing Star 27]

Hm... not quite the reaction I was expecting, but thank you all for chiming in.

 

But if you think about it, Flash Sentry is the male embodiment of the female character (in a different show/movie/story/whatever) who is only defined by her relationships with the male characters.

 

That's kind of the nature of secondary characters, however. There isn't enough time to flesh them out in-depth, so the writers take shortcuts and define characters based off their relationships with the main characters. Unfortunately, this can have a sexist connotation to it.

 

If the show wants to aim towards equality among genders, then the male characters simply need to have more prominent roles, roles that are not defined by their relationships with the female characters, but are independent from them. Of course, this would take time away from the show's mane characters, so I doubt that this would be happening anytime soon. Not that it's a terrible thing if they never did strive for a more equal approach to the male characters, because I don't think that this will be starting a trend anytime soon. But it would be nice.

 

Confession: I finally watched Equestria Girls last night, partly because I wanted to understand this comment.  Anyway, I like your perspective, and it makes sense that the writers can't help that all the males are secondary characters. Especially in light of recent discussions concerning women in the Marvel and DC movies, the reversal of roles in MLP is quite refreshing! Thank you for helping me see it in a new light. 

 

None of these characters bother me that much, with the exception of Spike to an extent. Big Macintosh is actually a really great character. There's nothing wrong with him just because he's a hard-working silent type. That's just his personality. He seems perfectly content and I doubt he's being put down in any form. Shining is captain of the Royal Guard and is just as useful as Cadance. The two of them seem to be a team that works best when they are together.

 

 I do have a problem with Spike a bit. I like him as a character, but I sometimes feel like he's just used for comedic relief and they don't give him enough credit. He's Twilight's best friend/assistant/little brother/emotional support. He can be surprisingly mature at times and knows how to keep Twilight calm when she's freaking out over something. Sure he can be a bit childish or selfish, and has some identity issues with being a dragon living among ponies, but that's part of his character. I wish the writers would give him a bit more respect.

 

 I don't care too much about the others though. Flim and Flam were amusing antagonists, but others like Snips and Snails or Blueblood don't matter that much to me.

 

I generally agree with all this too (I adore Big Mac  ), but I just wanted to give examples that supported the trend. Like I said, I don't actually take the sociological elements of the show too seriously, it's just how my mind works!

Also, of all these things, I feel for Spike the most. It's ironic because I love Rarity, but damn does her manipulation of Spike piss me off!

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

Wishing Star, on 31 Aug 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

 

Also, of all these things, I feel for Spike the most. It's ironic because I love Rarity, but damn does her manipulation of Spike piss me off!

I don't think Rarity is manipulating him quite as much as some people seem to think. Spike has a crush on her and always seems completely willing to help simply because he wants to. And she willingly gives him gifts like that bow-tie in "Owl's well that ends well" and gems for him to snack on. She's not forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to do.

 

 Maybe she does take it a bit far sometimes, but Spike has never seemed upset by anything she's made him do. Actually that would make a pretty good episode. Rarity asks Spike to help in a way that makes him uncomfortable for some reason, and Spike is torn between helping her or not.

[Wishing Star 27]

I guess it's mainly "Secret of My Excess" that I'm thinking of, where she convinces him to give her the gem he'd been saving for his birthday. 

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

Wishing Star, on 31 Aug 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I guess it's mainly "Secret of My Excess" that I'm thinking of, where she convinces him to give her the gem he'd been saving for his birthday. 

I'd like to point out that we mostly see that scene from Spike's point of view. Part of that might have just been his own image of Rarity rather than the real one. Since he tends to put her on a bit of a pedestal. Also, while it's rather obvious Rarity wanted the gem, she might not have been purposely trying to convince him to give it to her. Sometimes it's really hard to hide a desire for something.

 

 It's like going to the store with your parents when you're a bit younger. You see something you really want and you know your parents probably won't be able to get it for you. Even if you don't outright try to convince your parents to get it for you, you might sort of end up unintentionally showing just how much you want it. Because it can be hard to hide that kind of thing sometimes. And she did try to repay him for it on his birthday.

[Castle Bleck 19,361]

Discord's the ex-ruler of Canterlot and Ponyville, and Sombra was the ruler of the Crystal Empire.

[ponylaces 1,870]

There are also tons of males guarding the castle in Canterlot, as seen in many scenes.

[Wishing Star 27]

I'd like to point out that we mostly see that scene from Spike's point of view. Part of that might have just been his own image of Rarity rather than the real one. Since he tends to put her on a bit of a pedestal. Also, while it's rather obvious Rarity wanted the gem, she might not have been purposely trying to convince him to give it to her. Sometimes it's really hard to hide a desire for something.

 

 It's like going to the store with your parents when you're a bit younger. You see something you really want and you know your parents probably won't be able to get it for you. Even if you don't outright try to convince your parents to get it for you, you might sort of end up unintentionally showing just how much you want it. Because it can be hard to hide that kind of thing sometimes. And she did try to repay him for it on his birthday.

Truth, but accepting someone else's birthday treat still seems a little low. She didn't have to take it. Also, I'm not seeing where she tried to repay him...?

 

Discord's the ex-ruler of Canterlot and Ponyville, and Sombra was the ruler of the Crystal Empire.

Yes, but both are villains, not respected characters that set any kind of example for viewers.

[Castle Bleck 19,361]

@Wishing Star,

 

Were villains; one's an antihero now, and the other's dead/dormant/whatever.

[Sceethe 704]

it doesnt really bother me, mainly because it is not a real society.

 

even if what you say is true, that doesnt mean that it has to be a problem.

its a cartoon show, so what if it is female-centered?it doesnt represent real society and it doesnt really "feel" like female superiority to me anyways.(more like the creators didnt really have the time to flesh out the male characters, since the show is still aimed for girls)

 

MLP appeals to me for the same reason stuff like "game of thrones" appeals to people.

that show shows a horrible representation of the medieval ages, a world in which noone would like to live.

 

it doesnt, however, mean that i would welcome such a society.

i just find it to be interesting.

[Wishing Star 27]

@Wishing Star,

 

Were villains; one's an antihero now, and the other's dead/dormant/whatever.

I'm not disputing that they had/have power. My initial argument was that the show overall is biased towards females. Discord is still not a role model type of character, most recently his purpose has been to present challenges to the mane characters. Sombra's role was always just to be villain. Again, not a character that promotes males.

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

Wishing Star, on 31 Aug 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Truth, but accepting someone else's birthday treat still seems a little low. She didn't have to take it. Also, I'm not seeing where she tried to repay him...?

 

That is a bit of a flaw right there. She could have said no, but she didn't. But I can't be completely upset at her for it, it's not always easy to resist temptation when someone offers you something you want. Perhaps she was a bit greedy, but everyone is at times. And I'm pretty sure she designed a new line inspired by his generosity, which isn't really repaying him quite that much but it is better than nothing.

 

 Rarity can be a bit selfish, vain, or manipulative at times. Whether that manipulation is conscious or something she does without always realizing is up to debate. But she's never really done anything that particularly bad to Spike, nor has she ever been malicious to him. I do think that she can push it a bit far at times, and that's a character flaw she might need to work on a bit.

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

This is outrageous! Colts in Equestria are clearly being oppressed by the matriarchy! Masculinists must come together and fight!

Edited August 31, 2014 by LZRD WZRD

[Heliodor 156]

To me, you know what I think about it? So what if it's biassed towards females? When 99% of everything else is biased towards males, I find it a little refreshing island.

[chaos rains 190]

Its nothing to do with the male or female thing its down to friendship and how we should learn to care for the ones we hold close through thick and thin but the idea it is centered around females as I always say is so that males who always get the big roles are not so big and women get the equal spotlight which I as a guy am for since where ever you look its more often women getting dragged through the dirt with sexist crap like men thinking they are worth sleeping with then just dumping like a friggin toy not saying just guys do it but its more likely males would do it. My sisters been through it way too often as has others I met I even had a girl I didnt know ask me what would I do if I was in her shoes at which I was taken aback. Feminism is just a vile form of racism which is not being dealt with appropriately.we should have had equality an extremely long time ago.

[Wishing Star 27]

Feminism is just a vile form of racism which is not being dealt with appropriately.we should have had equality an extremely long time ago.

I appreciate that you support gender equality and support women. However please be careful of how you define feminism. It is a movement that was vilified early on, and thus people tend to believe all feminists are bra-burning, lesbian man haters (as I was taught and also believed for much of my life).

Try reading some of the posts in the Pro-Feminism thread on this site, and you'll see most Feminists only want equality and tolerance just like you.

[Malinter 3,064]

Stallions need to do more manual labour anyway, how else can get become as awesome as Big Mac.

[chaos rains 190]

I appreciate that you support gender equality and support women. However please be careful of how you define feminism. It is a movement that was vilified early on, and thus people tend to believe all feminists are bra-burning, lesbian man haters (as I was taught and also believed for much of my life).

Try reading some of the posts in the Pro-Feminism thread on this site, and you'll see most Feminists only want equality and tolerance just like you.

lol I understand completely as im on that post aswell accept I can call myself feminist but im more equalist meaning im for pure equality no matter who we are or where we are from or even what we look like. Maybe I came across as close to extreme but im not its just its a massive subject. I would give my own life if it meant equality for everybody.

 

Also we are villified as bronies all the time anyway because we like a cartoon. People dont want to know a lot of the time.

Edited August 31, 2014 by chaos rains