What'd be the opposite of a Mary Sue?

[They call me Loyalty 1,941]

Mary sue characters tend to be sterile for the most part.

So I'd be the opposite of artificial, life-like.

When it comes to celestia, an example would be, spontaneous and easy-going.

[Luminance 2,181]

A character who fails so much that in return they're actually really good a failing.

[cider float 2,536]

An person that would be below even average as a person and is dependent on certain characters to bring out his heroic side. This person is also prone to certain moral weaknesses like being an alcoholic, easily seduced, easily choosing money over a noble choice and just being somewhat hated by most characters. Other characters don't have good hopes or care for this hero. The hero would also make too many mistakes and out of sheer dumb luck makes it out but with some scars that won't heal. You have to also see the character as being somewhat expendable.

Edited October 31, 2016 by cider float

[Applejacket 185]

Applejack. That's why I love her, really. She's the most imperfect, awkward, weird, hard done by pony in the mane 6 and I love her to bits.

[gamecubeguy214 2,511]

A character that is capable of nothing. Like Melee Kirby but worse.

[EmeraldStar04 250]

A character that is capable of nothing. Like Melee Kirby but worse.

Spoken like someone who's never Kirbycided anyone.

[Widdershins 9,955]

 HAH! I'VE FINALLY FOUND IT! Way to go, TvTropes!

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue

 Because that is my question, indeed! If your character winds up so despicable & ineffectual from systematically removing any sense of sympathy for them that they're just so inherently hateable... what possible reason would your audience want to follow them? 

 Like, for example, Detective Gumshoe from the Phoenix Wright series. Pretty much every line & interaction with him is basically reinforcing the idea that he's poor beyond belief and too much of a blockhead to put two & two together to actually help your opponent like he's being paid to! Though then again, think he qualifies more as the Woobie trope since every fan loves the big teddy bear of a mug that he is!

 Me, think I'm aiming for the Chew Toy trope. A character you don't really want to have him get deeply hurt... but you have to admit a frequent mauling feels a bit kharmic. Schadenfreude!

[Brony Number 42 9,992]

I think Perer Parker in the animated Spectacular Spider Man is an anti Mary Sue. The character was awful. He kept getting blamed for things that wasn't his fault and he never stood up for himself. Everyone hated him because they thought he was to blame for various bad things, but the truth was he was trying to hide his identity as Spider Man while fighting the bad guys.

If I were him I would either tell the world I was Spider Man or I would say, "screw you guys. If you don't want my help then I will just let bad stuff happen and the police can handle it."

I guess the writers were trying to stack everything against him so that it would be more heroic when he won in the end. The show got canceled before that happened. But even so, the character came off as an idiot for not respecting himself. It is one thing to make sacrifices for the greater good, but he needs to take care of himself first.

[Twilight Luna 30,984]

There is also a parody sue which is a mary sue done that way to make fun in a comedic way  why mary sues are bad. Good examples are Hercule from DBZ and Yancy Fry from Futurama.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParodySue

[Widdershins 9,955]

@Inarguably BronyNumber 2A Well...

 Been listening to Likara talk about Spiderman for a while now & how he used to like him. Among all superheroes, Spidey does have the reputation of dealing with the most trouble. Probably don't need to tell any of you what the "Clone Saga" was about but it lasted for over a decade, some fifty issues and well past reader interest. Poor Peter has likely watched his girlfriend die more than he's even had girlfriends! 

 Peter Parker's more of a chew toy & punching bag, I'd say.

 Think that's the point though. That the gist is that he's a teen over his head; that he cares more about helping others than helping himself at all. Read that somewhere today, that back when Peter died & Doctor Octopus took over his body and life to be the new Spider-Man (SEE?!) Octy learned that the only way Parker managed was by sacrificing his own personal life & giving up on being anything other than the Hero. 

 ... and it's just easier to write that as constant drama hitting the fan. Especially when you can't have entire books to weave a prolonged suffering & series of difficult decisions. Has always been that way with protagonists since the Oddessy. Can't have a journey without suffering, eh? 

 Hmm... perhaps you're right... maybe one opposite of a Sue is a selfless hero... or in Spidey's case, Self-Inflicted Hero.

 He DID reveal his identity once too! That got redone quickly though... comic books being as they are.

@Twilight Luna 

 Did just look upYancy just now & I'm vaguely remembering that episode!  Rather it could be said that episode managed to turn Fry into a temporary Gary Stu! The colossal chump we had been following up until that point! Sure, think it said that Yancy was the "better brother" but there was the lesson that what you see is always only a part of the full story. That Fry might have held a grudge, but Yancy had always loved him in spite of their history together!

 Perhaps that can be said too. If a Mary Sue is defined by warping a story into how it relates to them, then the opposite Anti-Sue, while equally of debatable quality, cannot survive without their relationship to other characters. Like your typical one-shot antagonists.

 Think... that might've been said before in this thread... my philosophy offers me no answers, lol!

[Brony Number 42 9,992]

@Widdershins I like Linkara but I don't read comics. I'm not talking about Spider Man generally, I mean that specific show just came off as a flop. I have liked other incarnations of Spider Man in shows.

I wouldn't say an anti Mary Sue is a selfless hero. I would say it is a failure of a hero. Think totally opposite.

[Twilight Luna 30,984]

7 minutes ago, Inarguably BronyNumber 2A said:

@Widdershins I like Linkara but I don't read comics. I'm not talking about Spider Man generally, I mean that specific show just came off as a flop. I have liked other incarnations of Spider Man in shows.

I wouldn't say an anti Mary Sue is a selfless hero. I would say it is a failure of a hero. Think totally opposite.

Would that be someone like Zapp Brannigan from Futurama? He’s selfish and does nothing right but still keeps his command and people love him. 

[Brony Number 42 9,992]

Just now, Twilight Luna said:

Would that be someone like Zapp Brannigan from Futurama? He’s selfish and does nothing right but still keeps his command and people love him. 

Yes! Let us make that a thing.

[SDP40F amtrak 2,443]

Mary Sue 

bebe any kind with crazy rainbow hair or horrible drawing 

Yes including ponies like alicorn earth pony pegasus and unicorn

Edited June 27, 2018 by Twilight Sparkle is best

[Widdershins 9,955]

@Inarguably BronyNumber 2A & @Twilight Luna

 Ooh! The Failure Hero! Just read that on TvTropes! The superheroes that can't ever catch a break! I have always thought it felt more empathetic & engrossing when everything goes comically wrong! Like how Twilight can't do anything big without first having a mild panic attack!

 Ought to look into Empowered! From the synopsis of it, the girl protagonist rarely ever wins, few times she does she either loses credit or comes under suspicion! Never mind her frequent embarrassment when the powersuit she gets her powers from fails & leaves her nude in public yet again!   ...

 ...yeah, there's a reason I haven't looked into the comic book series yet.

@Twilight Sparkle is best 

 So all it takes is Rainbow hair and natural, inexplicable ability? Dash it all if I just can't think of any examples of that now!

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

They have a name for that. It’s called an Anti-Sue. And they’re just as bad as Mary-Sues.

Because instead of creating a balanced character, they’re so busy worrying about making a Mary-Sue, that they make a character that’s just as limited, but for the opposite reasons.

[SDP40F amtrak 2,443]

17 minutes ago, Widdershins said:

@Inarguably BronyNumber 2A & @Twilight Luna

 Ooh! The Failure Hero! Just read that on TvTropes! The superheroes that can't ever catch a break! I have always thought it felt more empathetic & engrossing when everything goes comically wrong! Like how Twilight can't do anything big without first having a mild panic attack!

 Ought to look into Empowered! From the synopsis of it, the girl protagonist rarely ever wins, few times she does she either loses credit or comes under suspicion! Never mind her frequent embarrassment when the powersuit she gets her powers from fails & leaves her nude in public yet again!   ...

 ...yeah, there's a reason I haven't looked into the comic book series yet.

@Twilight Sparkle is best 

 So all it takes is Rainbow hair and natural, inexplicable ability? Dash it all if I just can't think of any examples of that now!

Yep 

[Pr0m4NV14 837]

Simple, a Divorice No-Lawsuits. 

[Props Valroa 26,161]

A character that has too many flaws and is very weak, I think.

[Meson Bolt 2,647]

An overlooked side character, as opposed to a significant central character.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Meson Bolt

[EpicEnergy 22,214]

I don't really know what a Mary Sue is, but I guess the opposite of a Mary Sue would be a good and well-developed character.

[cuteycindyhoney 13,284]

What'd be the opposite of a Mary Sue?

Schleprock!

 

[Splashee 28,538]

Not particularity interesting for a MLP show of a character. Ponies don't get many chances, they need to be 100% Mary Sues or more to survive the harsh competition

[Widdershins 9,955]

@EpicEnergy

 Well now, allow me to be more precise. A "Mary Sue" does not mean inherently bad of a character. The term isn't intended to be an insult or a shorthand of just saying that your character you made is bad. It comes back to an old, if not one of the first fanfics.

 A Mary Sue makes the story all about herself. Because, after all, that's what Main Characters in a Story are all about, right? You follow them, so you would see only how things pertain to their views. But a Mary Sue sucks in all the attention to herself: other characters, even pre-established ones are inable to do anything but talk of the main characters qualities and how superb they are in everything they do. Nothing exists in her story, but for how it relates to her and her suceeding.   ...kinda a trend these days in "Young Adult Literature."

 But when your making a chart or page specifically about your character's backstory and personality, it's kind of impossible to not have it be how everything centered around them. A good character should have room to interact and make friends with others, not dominate whatever situation she's in.

So if a Mary Sue means, specifically, A Character that forces everything to be about themself, then the opposite would be.... A Character that forces everything on everyone else and has nothing to their own character but for how they support everyone else?...

@cuteycindyhoney

I just looked that... Him? up on Youtube.

(You have actually blindsighted me with a reference I had not previously known. I stand flattered & in awe of you, My Good Being!)

That's.... that is actually a great example. Not that he's inherently negative in all situations and only a failure as opposed to the inherent success we seed in archetypal Mary Sue... but in that he's a One-Off Character. The guy that shows up to hand over what the main cast is gonna do that episode and have literally nothing else behind them other than presenting the hook for that episode.

... Basically, yeah. How Applejack is often and ESPECIALLY Celestia. A character who only supports other characters, promotes what they're doing but otherwise has no agency or life of their own to define their own character but for how they helped others. A Support-Only Class, no offense or defense capabilities, but good at bolstering others.

 One doesn't have to be the protagonist and cause things to happen, it's okay to be only ever in the background cheering others on, but... it feels like having no character of your own is also a bad sign.

 

 What i'm thinking here! Is how often others tend to talk about the trope of a Hated Comedic Relief Character.

 The guy who always points out what others are doing to make some joke in the middle of an otherwise tense scene, basically popping in to remind the audience he still exists and checking to see if their still awake for the major plot developments. The ones that get on an audiences' nerves for their incessant pointing out of not their quirky humor (well, that too) but for what's going on currently in the story. 

 Because, as I feel I might've said before, you can very likely go far too far the opposite direction with a character that is forcibly telling you their not part of the story. That this character so totally isn't going to come important later, even thematically, and just beggars the audience to ask why you even created the character to begin with in the first place.

 The shmuck that ruins everything he touches. Or the guy that never stops talking about how unimportant he is to the point of irratation.

 

 

  ....If it sounds like i'm talking about myself here, it's only because I am. I don't have very good self-esteem. S' why i think so much about this topic. 

[Goat-kun 2,500]

Let me activate my weebery!

 

Aqua and Ristarte could fit the bill. We have to understand that something that is opposite to a Mary Sue is still a main protagonist, but a main protagonist that is completely flawed and quite useless. But we also need to understand that both Aqua and Ristarte aren't useless to the point of complete, monotonous predictability. They have their moments, and so they cannot fit what one would describe as a perfect, useless anti-Mary Sue, but they are as close as one can get without hitting into problems, same as with the inclusion of a Mary Sue in the story. Thus a completely dysfunctional anti-Mary Sue, a character you should never create, would be a white heterosexual male character that has crawled out of modern western entertainment. Someone like Kevin the Receptionist from Ghostbusters 2016.

 

So, for a Mary Sue you ask yourself: would the story be more interesting without her? The answer is always yes.

For an anti-Mary Sue you ask yourself: does this character matter? Would the story change if we delete it? The answer is always no.

 

Lately, the Mary Sue is once more being subverted and used for antagonists, although only in Eastern anime. I'm saying "once more" cause we too had the ragtag band trope here; however, the current "ragtag bands" are filled with all-powerful Mary Sues by soy-stained hipsters who don't know how to human. Ironic, I know. You can't really be an underdog if you're the bestest ewah now and forever. Anyhow, Shield Hero is one such protagonists where the traditional heroes in shining armor are flawed trash while still abiding by the standard Mary Sue isekai protagonist principles. From the beginning, the other heroes were liked just because of what they were while Shield Hero was despised for same reasons. One could even say that Princess Bitch and the Melromarc court can serve as a mirror to the modern writers who are trying to elevate the intended Mary Sues at the cost of Shield Hero who represents the consumer. It can then be said that a character that is put in opposition to the mere motif of a Mary Sue can be an anti-Mary Sue, or even that a well-made character is always anti-Mary Sue whether they are put in such opposition or not.

 

Then we have gals like Tanya Degurechaff from Youjo Senki who is walking a thin line that separates her from a Mary Sue. In fact, Tanya is so powerful and cunning that she is able to compete with a Mary Sue. What is preventing her from being one is her internal monologue and the fact that she always fails to get what she wants. Other characters often regard her as a Mary Sue while spectators, privy to her personal story, find such misinterpretations of Tanya's intentions and character traits as comedic. A character that can come across as a Mary Sue to other characters but is ultimately flawed and interesting can, in a way, be regarded as an anti-Mary Sue due to the ability to stand against them toe to toe while, unlike a true Mary Sue, keeping the audience entertained.

 

Perhaps by understanding those who stand against Mary Sue we will one day be able to develop diagnostic criteria for a Mary Sue. It seems that both the attitude of other characters and writers themselves play a huge role in the Sue pathology. However, when dealing with an anti-Sue one must ask oneself if they see anti-Sue as something that is equally bad but just on the other side of the graph, or is anti-Sue just a particular example of a well-written character. I personally see it as the Aqua option.