Is Timber Really Better Than Flash?

[Malcontent 196]

I'm just gonna leave this here:

 

https://mlpforums.com/topic/160924-interesting-flash-facts-and-rants-on-flash-hate/

 

You were saying?

 

 

Are you implying I may not have entire objective thoughts on that matter?

[darknessrising24 56]

Are you implying I may not have entire objective thoughts on that matter?

No, just pointing out the fact that Flash has just as if not more potential than Timber.

[Thrond 3,263]

Yes.

 

In the first movie, Twilight and Flash go through the motions without any specificity, and so they lack chemistry. Twilight and Flash like each other because the film says so, and even in the second movie, where it has more emotional weight, it plays out like an afterthought. Furthermore, despite Flash having aspects which could make him a compelling character, the films are allergic to exploring them, and the first in particular would lose nothing from his removal. If you want to make me like Flash, then give me something to like, or stop forcing him on me.

 

Timber at least has the backstory of the camp. He at least demonstrates some sort of personality. He at least contributes to the film's identity. And, most importantly, there's specific quirks to his and Twilight's flirting. Remove the age confusion and there's an actual base to build on, because there's a spark between the two which is actually fun to watch. Those science jokes are way more distinctive than anything involving Flash. The relationship isn't very well thought-out from a storytelling standpoint, but it's also the one part of its movie where I actually think charm is enough to compensate.

 

So I'll take a sketchy but cute relationship in my fiction over a completely boring one.

Edited March 20, 2017 by AlexanderThrond

[darknessrising24 56]

Yes.

 

In the first movie, Twilight and Flash go through the motions without any specificity, and so they lack chemistry. Twilight and Flash like each other because the film says so, and even in the second movie, where it has more emotional weight, it plays out like an afterthought. Furthermore, despite Flash having aspects which could make him a compelling character, the films are allergic to exploring them, and the first in particular would lose nothing from his removal. If you want to make me like Flash, then give me something to like, or stop forcing him on me.

 

Timber at least has the backstory of the camp. He at least demonstrates some sort of personality. He at least contributes to the film's identity. And, most importantly, there's specific quirks to his and Twilight's flirting. Remove the age confusion and there's an actual base to build on, because there's a spark between the two which is actually fun to watch. Those science jokes are way more distinctive than anything involving Flash. The relationship isn't very well thought-out from a storytelling standpoint, but it's also the one part of its movie where I actually think charm is enough to compensate.

 

So I'll take a sketchy but cute relationship in my fiction over a completely boring one.

Gonna have to disagree with that.

 

The problem is that the flirting comes completely out of nowhere from Timber. He's there, he sees Twilight, he just starts putting the moves on her, and then suddenly she's into him. Flash at the very least get something to earn Twilight's affection at first, sure it was a minor thing, but he did something before said spark happened and they started giving each other the "I want you so badly" eyes. Not to mention the fact that they're little romance didn't really get put to use.

 

I wouldn't have minded as much as it actually contributed to one of the major arcs, mainly the Midnight Sparkle issue since it looked like he was going to be one of the few people who could get through to her in the end, but that doesn't even come into play near the final part of the movie. It really speaks volumes when your romantic subplot is supposed to be a big deal and yet Spike the Dog manages to outdo it in plot relevance.

 

If Flash is an example of too little backstory and not much to do with him, then Timber is the exact opposite, too much backstory and absolutely nothing done with it.

 

Him wanting to leave the camp and head to the city? Never brought up after it's mentioned.

 

Him covering for his sister? Done only so Sunset's got a red herring to chase around.

 

Sorry, but I'll go with Flash. He's at least been built up more and has a few more aspects to be explored, not to mention his history with Sunset. Timber is limited to Camp Everfree at the moment and really has no reason to be involved with the humane cast barring visiting Sci-Twi.

Edited March 20, 2017 by darknessrising24

[ChocolateCrane 156]

I don't HATE Timber Spruce, nor am opposed to him and Sci-Twi being together

 

^well, that is where we differ, my good sir.

 

Here is an excerpt of an article I wrote on the matter of Legend of the Everfree several moons ago (please note, I refer to "Sci- Twi" as Moe-Twi, since the REAL Sci-Twi, will forever be Scissor Twilight who predated this Glasses wearing chick by over 5 years)

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Anyways, the movie starts and we are greeted by two new characters. Yay, right? If there's one thing EQG knows how to do well, its introducing new likable characters like the Dazzlings in Rainbow Rocks, or Moe-Twilight and her hilariously bitchy classmates in Friendship Games. What could ever go wrong with this installment of EQG? =_=

 

I'm going to be honest, I disliked BOTH of these characters soooo damn much, that I don't even remember their names for fucks sakes. Therefore, I will be referring to them as Brad and Angie for the remainder of this post. So Brad is such an awkwardly psuedo-smooth talker that it made me uncomfortable throughout the entire movie. Any times that he had any real discourse with any of the other characters it just felt "wrong" and I would shift about in my seat by the cringy vibe I got. This is the kinda guy who tries to be cool/ funny and fails drastically, but for some reason everyone acts like he's the best thing since sliced cheese. His design is good enough, I suppose. The dark earthy colors match well and at least don't make my eyes sore on top of feeling uncomfortable. But then you get to the meat of my problems with the character. And that would be the forced mutual romantic interest with Moe-Twi. I do NOT like these characters together at ALL. Why? Because when they are together, talking, joking around, etc, BOTH of these characters become annoying as fuck. Like if Brad wasn't already enough of a pain in the ass, he somehow gets even more cringy when associating with Moe-Twi. And as for Moe-Twi herself, well, i suppose its a good Idea for me to address something about her that pervades throughout the entire movie. And that is the fact that she doesn't really act very similar to the Moe-Twi I knew and loved in Friendship Games. Sure, when she's with Brad she gets considerably worse. But even when she's just around normally, I find her to feel really "off". I found her to be much less likable in this movie than I expected, which was a real shame as that was the main thing that had me excited for this movie; getting to see the lovable moe-blob form Friendship Games getting the spotlight with her internal struggle against her dark side. And that's sort of what the movie trys to deliver, but while simultaneously watering that plot down to make way for the Scooby-Doo esque bullshit excuse for a subplot. Actually, the subplot pretty much overtakes Moe-twi's struggles and becomes the main plot itself. "

 

and

 

"A segway into greener pastures would be quite a treat for the tortured psyche this movie left me with, so how about I discuss the aforementioned character for awhile? Sunset Shimmer was probably one of the best things about this movie. She shined here brighter than any of her previous appearances, which caught me off guard honestly. I never liked Sunset when she was originally introduced. Similarly I never quite liked Starlight Glimmer during her debut either. Once these characters were reformed, however, they both became much more enjoyable and a genuine pleasure to watch. I especially like how these characters stumble around their newly found frontier of friendship, as it is quite adorable and makes me wanna give them a hug =^-^= This movie is one of the first times where Sunset mostly abandons the things that made her likable for me in the previous two movies; her helpless struggle to fit in and be a good person. And she takes up a new role as a headstrong leader who helps those in need and does a damn fine job of doing so. The way she comforts Moe-Twi in this movie is spot on. i loved almost every second of these two sharing a moment together. Similarly, Sunset's interactions with the previous "Brad" achitype,  Flash Sentry, are are very powerful and emotionally driven. Flash Sentry himself has improved TREMENDOUSLY over the course of these 4 movies, and this is his strongest showing yet. Every interaction he has with a character is a 10/10 in my book. From the awkward Moe-Twi tension to the desperate, advice seeking conversation with Sunset, his discourse is extremely satisfying to watch. The one thing that I cannot stand about what the writers did with these characters, however, was trying to set up a romantic relationship with them. I don't want these characters together, dammit! xD Why make Flash and Sunset a thing when he has improved so damn much? He is clearly PERFECT for normal Twilight at this point. What, are they just going to act like the romantic love interest was one sided in subsequent movies? Twilight herself was clearly quite taken by Flash, so the writers taking the route of "Flash you need to get over Twilight" doesn't sit right with me. i think they could have gone with something better in this instance, but other than that little snippet, both Flash and Sunset were utterly immaculate throughout the entire movie."

Edited March 20, 2017 by ChocolateCrane

[Thrond 3,263]

Gonna have to disagree with that.

 

The problem is that the flirting comes completely out of nowhere from Timber. He's there, he sees Twilight, he just starts putting the moves on her, and then suddenly she's into him. Flash at the very least get something to earn Twilight's affection at first, sure it was a minor thing, but he did something before said spark happened and they started giving each other the "I want you so badly" eyes. Not to mention the fact that they're little romance didn't really get put to use.

 

I wouldn't have minded as much as it actually contributed to one of the major arcs, mainly the Midnight Sparkle issue since it looked like he was going to be one of the few people who could get through to her in the end, but that doesn't even come into play near the final part of the movie. It really speaks volumes when your romantic subplot is supposed to be a big deal and yet Spike the Dog manages to outdo it in plot relevance.

 

If Flash is an example of too little backstory and not much to do with him, then Timber is the exact opposite, too much backstory and absolutely nothing done with it.

 

Him wanting to leave the camp and head to the city? Never brought up after it's mentioned.

 

Him covering for his sister? Done only so Sunset's got a red herring to chase around.

 

Sorry, but I'll go with Flash. He's at least been built up more and has a few more aspects to be explored, not to mention his history with Sunset. Timber is limited to Camp Everfree at the moment and really has no reason to be involved with the humane cast barring visiting Sci-Twi.

I don't entirely disagree, but Flash simply isn't a very entertaining character to me, and I think you're overstating the extent to which his romance is built up, not to mention the "aspects to be explored," which the movies do zilch with. I have a touch more of an idea who Timber is, as I know nearly nothing about Flash. And without having any investment in Flash, his romance with Twilight feels just as lacking in buildup.

 

The Timber romance didn't have nearly enough presence, but at least for me that charm does make a difference. Timber is underused and underdeveloped, but anything is better than Flash, who is like a charisma black hole. The movies certainly could make him fun, but they don't.

[Pr0m4NV14 839]

You know that Grant Gustin acted as some guy from Glee before he became the flash.

[darknessrising24 56]

Timber is underused and underdeveloped, but anything is better than Flash, who is like a charisma black hole.

You've got it completely backwards.

 

So the guy who clumsily flirts with a girl within the span of a few seconds is somehow okay and yet you'll say he's underutilized and underdevelope, yet despite the fact that Flash shares the same problem apparently "anything is better than him"?

 

You do realize how hypocritical that sounds right?

[Thrond 3,263]

You've got it completely backwards.

 

So the guy who clumsily flirts with a girl within the span of a few seconds is somehow okay and yet you'll say he's underutilized and underdevelope, yet despite the fact that Flash shares the same problem apparently "anything is better than him"?

 

You do realize how hypocritical that sounds right?

Timber has more charisma and personality. It makes a difference.

[darknessrising24 56]

Timber has more charisma and personality. It makes a difference.

And Flash has his own brand of personality that everyone seems to ignore, it just needs to be explored more.

 

https://mlpforums.com/topic/160924-interesting-flash-facts-and-rants-on-flash-hate/

Edited March 21, 2017 by darknessrising24

[Thrond 3,263]

And Flash has his own brand of personality that everyone seems to ignore, it just needs to be explored more.

 

https://mlpforums.com/topic/160924-interesting-flash-facts-and-rants-on-flash-hate/

I gather that you'll never accept my general apathy towards Flash, but the vast majority of those don't strike me as particularly unique or compelling. Timber doesn't have all that much to him either, and he's hardly one of my favourite characters, but Legend of Everfree puts more effort into giving him a bit more uniqueness, given the camp and the campfire stories and all. More importantly, he has a lot more charisma, and I like his chemistry with Twilight way more. The romance is underdeveloped, but it also comes from a place of mutual interest; with Flash, the relationship is entirely superficial. Neither goes all that far beyond them meeting and eventually dancing, but I never felt like the Flash/Twilight relationship was based on anything, even considering Flash's input in the first movie. (Although to be fair, the Flash romance raises fewer questions about character ages.) I'd like to see stuff like Flash's interest in music and his friendship with Derpy fleshed out, but Timber specifically draws comparison with Flash in the first movie, where those character traits are barely present, and since then he's effectively become joke, excepting Legend of Everfree, but I dislike almost all of the characterization in that movie, so it's not much better. 

[darknessrising24 56]

I gather that you'll never accept my general apathy towards Flash, but the vast majority of those don't strike me as particularly unique or compelling. Timber doesn't have all that much to him either, and he's hardly one of my favourite characters, but Legend of Everfree puts more effort into giving him a bit more uniqueness, given the camp and the campfire stories and all. More importantly, he has a lot more charisma, and I like his chemistry with Twilight way more. The romance is underdeveloped, but it also comes from a place of mutual interest; with Flash, the relationship is entirely superficial. Neither goes all that far beyond them meeting and eventually dancing, but I never felt like the Flash/Twilight relationship was based on anything, even considering Flash's input in the first movie. (Although to be fair, the Flash romance raises fewer questions about character ages.) I'd like to see stuff like Flash's interest in music and his friendship with Derpy fleshed out, but Timber specifically draws comparison with Flash in the first movie, where those character traits are barely present, and since then he's effectively become joke, excepting Legend of Everfree, but I dislike almost all of the characterization in that movie, so it's not much better. 

 

It can only really be apathy if you knowledge both of their good aspects, which you barely have up until now.

 

 

As I've said, Flash at the very least get something to earn Twilight's affection first, he actually did something before Twilight really started showing more interest in him.

 

Twilight's attraction to him was somewhat superficial at first, but it was more a of an "interested yet uncertain" kind of way. For Sci-Twi? It was all of two second of flirting and they instantly started giving each other the "I want you so badly" eyes were ready to suck-face right of the bat.

 

If Flash and Twi's romance is underdeveloped, then Timber and Sci-Twi were an example of moving too fast.

 

While I'll agree that Timber got more effort put into him, as I've shown in the link above Flash has his own aspects that can be built on, and if that's not enough then now many character flaws does Timber have that you can point out?

 

And as I said in the link above, Flash was far from a joke, especially when we see him slowly acknowledge he has to let Twilight go, and his attempt to at least patch things up Sunset shows more maturity to his character, something that was built up over the course of these movies.

Edited March 23, 2017 by darknessrising24

[Violet_S 785]

I dont think one is better than the other to be honest >.< I just think that Timber was more straight forward with what he wanted and showed Twilight the way he felt right away.. Flash...not so much sadly. He tried his best during three movies but I guess it just wasnt enough.. thanks to this he didnt really had much of a character t show but with Timber it was completely different.. he appeared and talked more times in a single movie than Flash every did in the last three movies. I just think they didnt have the same amount of time on the screen for us to be able to judge who was the best... 

[SONICchaos 824]

On 3/19/2017 at 11:43 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

Yes.

 

In the first movie, Twilight and Flash go through the motions without any specificity, and so they lack chemistry. Twilight and Flash like each other because the film says so, and even in the second movie, where it has more emotional weight, it plays out like an afterthought. Furthermore, despite Flash having aspects which could make him a compelling character, the films are allergic to exploring them, and the first in particular would lose nothing from his removal. If you want to make me like Flash, then give me something to like, or stop forcing him on me.

 

Timber at least has the backstory of the camp. He at least demonstrates some sort of personality. He at least contributes to the film's identity. And, most importantly, there's specific quirks to his and Twilight's flirting. Remove the age confusion and there's an actual base to build on, because there's a spark between the two which is actually fun to watch. Those science jokes are way more distinctive than anything involving Flash. The relationship isn't very well thought-out from a storytelling standpoint, but it's also the one part of its movie where I actually think charm is enough to compensate.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Flash never really displayed a "personality". He just had attributes you noticed about him like he is nice, plays guitar and appears in a few scenes. Thats his character. I dont think he even has more than 5 lines in the first movie and yet i'm supposed to feel some kind of connection between these two. Its written in so it will be there and complete the high school romance plot.

Timber's affection toward Twilight while brief showed a lot more affection a human being would show another instead of "im nice" "you're female" "the script now says we're in love and dating". I at least felt Timber was trying to get Twilight to warm up to him rather than just be introduced, share a few lines and bam OTP comming through!

[darknessrising24 56]

43 minutes ago, SONICchaos said:

Pretty much what I was thinking. Flash never really displayed a "personality". He just had attributes you noticed about him like he is nice, plays guitar and appears in a few scenes. Thats his character. I dont think he even has more than 5 lines in the first movie and yet i'm supposed to feel some kind of connection between these two. Its written in so it will be there and complete the high school romance plot.

Timber's affection toward Twilight while brief showed a lot more affection a human being would show another instead of "im nice" "you're female" "the script now says we're in love and dating". I at least felt Timber was trying to get Twilight to warm up to him rather than just be introduced, share a few lines and bam OTP comming through!

Warm up to him? You're joking right? Timber just he sees Twilight, he starts putting the moves on her, and then suddenly she's into him and they look ready to suck-face in seconds.

Flash at the very least get something to earn Twilight's affection at first, sure it was a minor thing, but he did something before said spark happened and they started giving each other the "I want you so badly" eyes. Not to mention the fact that they're little romance either comes up out of no where or didn't really get put to use.

As I've said before, if Flash and Twi's romance is underdeveloped, then Timber and Sci-Twi were an example of moving too fast.

 

 

[Themlpfan 1]

Well, I kinda vote for Timber. Notice that around the beginning of the movie (legend of everfree) sunset adds in that Flash Sentry is crushing on Moondancer now and not Twilight. And, FlashLight were always bumping into each other awkwardly ( like mentioned before by someone ) but Timber kinda had the courage to speak to Twi. Not that I HATE Flash but I like Timber over Flash. Timber is also quite cool. Don't judge me, I haven't seen the whole movie, but according to me I think the closest Timber and Twi got was at the Ball when they were about to kiss but FlashLight were only in for a hug ( I repeat, I haven't seen the whole movie in both ) So I vote Timber. NOTE AGAIN : Sunset says Flash is into Moondancer. Also he had a carefree expression with Twi in the beginning. Timber over Flash is my option, What do you think ?

[darknessrising24 56]

14 minutes ago, Themlpfan said:

Well, I kinda vote for Timber. Notice that around the beginning of the movie (legend of everfree) sunset adds in that Flash Sentry is crushing on Moondancer now and not Twilight.

Um, did you even really watch the movie? There's literally no line of dialogue that indicates that Flash even knows Moondancer.

15 minutes ago, Themlpfan said:

And, FlashLight were always bumping into each other awkwardly ( like mentioned before by someone ) but Timber kinda had the courage to speak to Twi.

No, sure there was a lot of bumping into each other but Flash did speak to her and actually came to her defense when she was framed with no one else did. And had the guts to ask her out as well.

Timber on the other hand immediately starts flirting with her out of the blue. Not to mention the fact that he didn't really play into anything major aside from giving Sci-Twi a break from this Midnight Sparkle stuff.

 

17 minutes ago, Themlpfan said:

Don't judge me, I haven't seen the whole movie, but according to me I think the closest Timber and Twi got was at the Ball when they were about to kiss but FlashLight were only in for a hug ( I repeat, I haven't seen the whole movie in both ) So I vote Timber. NOTE AGAIN : Sunset says Flash is into Moondancer. Also he had a carefree expression with Twi in the beginning. Timber over Flash is my option, What do you think ?

I think you should actually watch every single movie before making these judgments. Not only do Flash and Twilight dance at the end of the first movie but they come close to kissing in the second one and we're only interrupted by Trixie.

Flash and Twilight had more buildup in there romance in Timber and Sci-Twi did. Flag of the Raley's waited until the second movie to try kissing her, Timber meets Sci-Twi and immediately the two look ready suck face off the bat.

[Adderbane 121]

I certainly wouldn't call the Timber-Twilight subplot good, but it was certainly better than the Flash-Twilight subplot from the previous movies.  I agree with what was said above about moving too fast.

The key difference is Timber actually is a character aside from his relationship with Twilight.  You could take out the romance plot from the movie, and he still is relevant, and narratively interesting, primarily due to his conflict with his sister.  If you took the Flash Twilight romance out of EG1, Flash is a background character in crowd shots.  Nothing about him is really relevant to the story, or to Twilight.  They seemed to realize this by EG3 which is pretty much just a cameo for him.

Ironically, it's his past failed relationships with Sunset and Twilight that actually start to create a character for him in LoE, and might be an avenue for the writers to rescue him from the scrappy heap if the writers pursue it.

[darknessrising24 56]

1 hour ago, Adderbane said:

I certainly wouldn't call the Timber-Twilight subplot good, but it was certainly better than the Flash-Twilight subplot from the previous movies.  I agree with what was said above about moving too fast.

The key difference is Timber actually is a character aside from his relationship with Twilight.  You could take out the romance plot from the movie, and he still is relevant, and narratively interesting, primarily due to his conflict with his sister.  If you took the Flash Twilight romance out of EG1, Flash is a background character in crowd shots.  Nothing about him is really relevant to the story, or to Twilight.  They seemed to realize this by EG3 which is pretty much just a cameo for him.

Ironically, it's his past failed relationships with Sunset and Twilight that actually start to create a character for him in LoE, and might be an avenue for the writers to rescue him from the scrappy heap if the writers pursue it.

That's not exactly 100% fair, first of all

Flash has his own brand of personality that everyone seems to ignore, it just needs to be explored more.

 

Second of all, the same could be said for any other characters in the other movies:

Trixie's scenes could've been removed completely since the Dazzlings could've simply trapped the Rainbooms themselves.

The Shadowbolts barely had any interaction with their "counterparts" despite all the hype and could've been switched out with other humanized rival/enemeis from the show.

Filthy Rich's villany made no sense, he could've been replaced with Glademane, Svengallop,or even his wife Spoiled Rich and it would've made more sense.

Timber Spruce gets a buttload of screentime together with Twilight yet he never actually "connects" with anything going on with her. He's mostly there to be Human Twilight's love interest and a red herring for Sunset, he doesn't play any part in in Twilight's issues with Midnight Sparkle and accomplishes little to nothing against Gaea Everfree.

If Flash is an example of too little backstory and not much to do with him, then Timber is the exact opposite, too much backstory and absolutely nothing done with it.

Him wanting to leave the camp and head to the city? Never brought up after it's mentioned.

Him covering for his sister? Done only so Sunset's got a red herring to chase around.

So don't single Flash out for being "pointless" when there are plenty of characters in the movies that have that fault.

Flash at the very least is built up better and has a little more history. Timber on the other hand.... I was expecting him to have some more vital role in convincing Twilight not to go into the Midnight form, but it doesn't go anywhere. It speaks volumes for his relevance to the story when Spike the dog could easily replace him.

Edited September 12, 2017 by darknessrising24

[Themlpfan 1]

On 9/12/2017 at 5:45 PM, darknessrising24 said:

Um, did you even really watch the movie? There's literally no line of dialogue that indicates that Flash even knows Moondancer.

No, sure there was a lot of bumping into each other but Flash did speak to her and actually came to her defense when she was framed with no one else did. And had the guts to ask her out as well.

Timber on the other hand immediately starts flirting with her out of the blue. Not to mention the fact that he didn't really play into anything major aside from giving Sci-Twi a break from this Midnight Sparkle stuff.

 

I think you should actually watch every single movie before making these judgments. Not only do Flash and Twilight dance at the end of the first movie but they come close to kissing in the second one and we're only interrupted by Trixie.

Flash and Twilight had more buildup in there romance in Timber and Sci-Twi did. Flag of the Raley's waited until the second movie to try kissing her, Timber meets Sci-Twi and immediately the two look ready suck face off the bat.

Thanks for letting me know. I saw the whole movie now and there is a part which shows Flash being jealous of SciTwi and Timber. Seems like what you said is right. Flash IS waaaayyyy better than Timber. I think I will re - watch that scene now. Flash over Timber, Judgement changed 👍

[Moon Sugar 532]

Both pairings feel uncomfortably forced and have an unnatural dichotomy to our protagonists. 

 

MLP writes such lovely ladies--I wish they could write a decent male character. ;;