Love, tolerance, and a preview of things to come

[Arylett Charnoa 4,919]

This whole thing about the character minimum violation is a bit off-putting because I often post on this site using a cellular device, and the cellular device bypasses the 100 character limit by not detailing how many characters I have typed. And I would not want to have to count each character, which I will not do.

 

This is only for INTENTIONAL bypassing of the character limit. If you don't do it intentionally and just do it by accident, you should be fine. You just need to tell us of your technical set-up beforehand.

[Starshine 16,330]

someone coming back from a ban - regardless of length - should honestly be on their best behavior.

The thing is, some people will go BERSERK when they think they got unfair punishment. Giving a slightly larger gap between the first and the second ban tier will give them a room to cool down their head.

 

That, and 500 point for the first ban tier is just too high (imo), some will try to abuse the "Suggestive/borderline NSFW content", get the shiny 400 points, wait for a bit, then repeat.

[Akemi Homura 7,680]

Now, when it comes to backseat moderating.

 

If i help someone, or tell someone to behave, is that backseat?

 

We are currently working on what is defined as "backseat moderation", but I'd like to get this out of the way: If you sound authoritative, bossy, or mediating sides without reporting it first, that is backseat moderating. Or if a post you made is about a hypothetical shitstorm and telling people to stop posting with very little or no content relevant to the topic at hand, that is also backseat modding. Take the time to report things rather than breaking people up - if they're fighting, then it doesn't have to concern you, and it shouldn't. If someone makes a snide remark or replies negatively to you, just don't bother looking at that thread for a while. Report it and move on, and come back when things look clear.

[Lady Rarity Pony 4,892]

I don’t so much disagree with this warning system as I disagree with where it appears the forums are going.

 

No more short posts, all young members get the hell out of here, and everyone don’t make any mistakes under pain of being banned. Each of these changes were warranted, but how many more are we going to get?

 

While bad content should be removed from the forums, do we really need a sword held to the neck of every member while they post in order to prevent bad content?

 

I don’t know whether the mods intend to implement more restrictions or methods for cracking down on members, but if that is what is intended, I think everything needs to slow down a bit.

 

These numbers really need to be worked out a bit better. So posting one suggestive image puts you over a third of the way to being permanently banned? And it takes four months to fully recover from that one mistake?

 

Good luck perma-banning a bunch of members who posted in the shipping threads.

 

 

This isn’t so much a complaint about the current state of the forums as it is a warning (ironic, isn’t it). Please don’t turn the forums into Nazi Germany in an effort to keep the forums clean.

I believe there are issues, but I believe supposed issues such as the mass exodus of utterly amazing members from the forums is being entirely overblown.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Lady Rarity Pony

[Creamy Arty 6,251]

 

All of this is common courtesy and should go without saying. To be honest, I haven't encountered too much of that kind of behavior here. Maybe if I was less of a lurker and more active I would see more of the negativity. I'm sure many others here spend time elsewhere on the internet too; if you feel like insulting people, insulting their beliefs; having an irrational argument, or pitching a swear-laden fit, there are more appropriate places for it, so let's leave that refuse where it belongs. I come here to chill.

 

To be fair to everybody, let me also state that every forum I've been to has a nearly equal ratio of scoundrels to paragons, but on the whole the people I've encountered here are a pleasure to be around. To those people I say thanks, and stay classy.

 

 

As for the point system and everything, it's a good idea, but I wouldn't make one's point accumulation the sole consideration in handing out bans. People can game the system so that they always fall just short of what's needed to get the boot. Sometimes it's necessary to get a bit arbitrary when repremanding people in this type of setting.

[Matus 130]

The point system is a very good way to handle all this ruckus. A very good idea, I like it a lot, after you reach a certain amount of points action will be taken, reasonable. Good job.

[Random User 249]

I suppose I don't really care much about this one, because if someone slanders me in their post I simply ignore it (HMM MAYBE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT TO DO). If this warning system gets to a ridiculous point, then I give up on you guys lol.

[Sepia-chan 495]

I'm fine with this because I never mess up I am perfect but I agree with LRP over there that the points should be thought out a bit better.

[Ethan Pow 332]

I feel pretty unsure of this, I know that it has its propose but I hope that all the staff still retains some level of respect in the past. I seen communities die before so it makes my stomach turn.... just alittle bit.

 

I can only stick around til the end and wish there is no end to this community as its strong and I hope it gets stronger.

[Dusty Soul 2,611]

I'm glad the warning points are going to be used now. I like the point system so I have to say I love this change. I was reading and at first I failed to read the whole 25 points decrease thing. I was surprised there was no way to redeem yourself. (as in loose points), but now that I see it I must say: this is probably my favorite recent change.

[Mcayon 24]

This is a great system, I've never seen anything like it. Although I've learned the lesson to not evade the character limit and to not post off-topic when I were new here, I was a bit intimidated at first.

[Dark Qiviut 22,177]

Although I like the idea, I find the way the point system is proposed to be rather rough. The suspensions and point distributions feel really uneven in many places. Especially with the hard point reduction. Getting 750 points from one rule violation is all but a death sentence for a member's posting capabilities here, because 25 points reduced per week is basically nothing for them.

 

—————

 

Although complicated, I'm thinking of something like this.

• Bypassing the character minimum requirements: 0 to 10 points*

   

  *Point total varies on how blatant the violation is. If the offending post is close to the requirement (i.e., ten characters shy of the 100-word requirement for some sections, twenty-five for the 200-word minimum), then the offending post will be reviewed on appeal and if it follows the MLP Forums guidelines, shall have its removal rescinded or post removed without any points deducted.

• Off-topic posts: 0 to 20 points.

• Backseat moderating: 5 to 20 points.

• Advertising in a topic or opening post without moderator or administrator consent: 20, 30, 40, or 50 points. Point count depends on the content of the advertised website, whether it is suitable for all audiences, and if it is properly warned of suggestive content.
• Over-excessive profanity: 25 to 50 points.

• Abusive behavior: 50 to 100 points.

• Intentionally posting legal borderline NSFW content that isn't warned beforehand during a post (i.e., some stronger violence, sexual content [a.k.a., any physical content [besides language] that can't be viewed by anyone under 13 independently): 100 to 200 points.*

   

  *If there is a SFW image from a NSFW link, warn beforehand. Not doing so can result in a warning ranging from 0 to 25 points depending on the blatancy of the violation.

• Intentionally posting legal NSFW/R- to X-rated content (i.e., physical content [besides language] that can't be viewed by anyone under at least eighteen): 200 to 300 points.*

   

  *If there is a SFW image from a NSFW link, warn beforehand. Not doing so can result in a warning ranging from 0 to 25 points depending on the blatancy of the violation.

• Racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic, and otherwise prejudice slurs: 250 to 500 points.

• Inflammatory trolling members of the forum (a.k.a., committing a Howard Stern moment that caused drama throughout the brony community): 300 to 500 points.
• Invasion of privacy (i.e., displaying another person's real name and location or any personal information without legal consent): 500 to 750 points.
• Sexual harassment: 500 to 750 points.

• Illegal pornography (i.e., underage porn): Automatic ban.
• Death threats: Automatic ban.

-

 

Consequences for point accumulation:

• 0 to 99 points: No suspension.

• 100 points: Post supervision by staff. Content will be reviewed for anywhere between one day to one week.
• 175 points. Post supervision by staff. Content will be reviewed for anywhere between one day to two weeks.

• 250 points: One- to three-day suspension. Posts supervised by the staff for up to two weeks following the suspension.

• 350 points: Seven-day suspension. Posts supervised by staff for two to four weeks depending on the severity and blatancy of the violation(s).

• 500 points: A suspension ranging from two weeks to four weeks depending on how blatant the violation was. Posts supervised by staff for two to four weeks depending on the severity and blatancy of the violation(s).

• 750 points: A suspension ranging from one to two months depending on how blatant the violation was. Posts supervised by staff for two to four weeks depending on the severity and blatancy of the violation(s).

• 1000 points: Indefinite suspension of at least three months. Suspensions may be permanent. If reinstated, posts supervised by staff for four to eight weeks depending on the severity and blatancy of past violations.

All violations are subject to appeal.

 

-

 

Points can be reduced on the following increments:

• 0 to 100 points: 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, or 40 points per week.

• 100 to 200 points: 25, 30, 35, or 40 points per week.

• 200 to 300 points: 30, 35, or 40 points per week.

• 300 to 500 points: 30, 40, 50, or 60 points per week.

• 500 to 750 points: 40, 50, 60, 70, or 80 points per week.

• 750 to 999 points: 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, or 85 points per week.

• 1000 points (if user is reinstated): 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, or 100 points per week.

All of these are a general guideline. The points may remain as is or is reduced at a slower rate depending on the user's content in the forum (i.e., someone who posted legal porn intentionally may be hit with a hard, firm suspension, and may have his or her point accumulation reduced to a bare minimum like 50 points). Likewise, the point accumulation may dip at a greater increase depending on good behavior and positive contribution to the forum by the offending user.

 

The current guidelines and Feldian Clause still apply, and Status Updates aren't exempt from the point system.

 

My proposal is much more complicated, but I feel I want to rely on a real fix solution based on Zoop's and the other staffs' idea. Currently, the one Zoop has laid out feels like a quick fix, one-does-all solution (when violations can be broken unwillingly and sometimes by accident, such as the link being hacked or the Website having uploaded NSFW content when it didn't do that prior to being linked), and the rigid point reduction just makes users with a high warning point count feel no hope. For example, it can take up to a calendar year to clean up a 750-point record.

 

Can the mods' solution cut out the drama? Definitely. But it can also give this perception that this community is ruled with a severe, inflexible iron fist, which you don't want here and can really scare off potential users. More flexibility is necessary here.

 

Credit goes to Strife's post (post #58) for some of the latest revisions here.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Dark Qiviut

[NotDavid_ 62]

I like this idea! Hope this does bring the drama down...

love and tolerance for everyone

 

 

except cloppers, gay people, haters, fans of shitty music and generally anyone who doesn't fit into the mold

 

blah

 

Why not love everyone for who they are? D= (Unless people that hate us (haters) ya I really have no idead what I can do about haters.)

Edited August 9, 2012 by Zootycooner

[Nouth 495]

I do agree with this new idea, though I would like to get more detailed info on this one :

 

What exactly counts as

Suggestive/borderline NSFW content: 400 points

 

?

 

Because I have seen quite a few pictures in Cute pony pic thread that can be explained

as suggestive, but not necessarily.

For example, take this picture :

 

 

Is this behind the border of acceptable or not ?

And does shipping rated ,,teen" on shipfiction count as borderline NSFW ? There

are sometimes suggestions as well.

 

And as written above, the backseat modding could use a bit clearer explanation, too.

[NavelColt 22,876]

I do agree with this new idea, though I would like to get more detailed info on this one :

 

What exactly counts as

 

?

 

Because I have seen quite a few pictures in Cute pony pic thread that can be explained

as suggestive, but not necessarily.

For example, take this picture :

 

 

Is this behind the border of acceptable or not ?

And does shipping rated ,,teen" on shipfiction count as borderline NSFW ? There

are sometimes suggestions as well.

 

And as written above, the backseat modding could use a bit clearer explanation, too.

 

Snuggling, kissing, and cute stuff is not borderline. Suggestive poses, breasts on an anthro pony showing, and other things would be borderline, then leading into full-blown if sexual activities or certain private parts began to show.

 

That's my interpenetration anyway.

[Nouth 495]

Snuggling, kissing, and cute stuff is not borderline. Suggestive poses, breasts on an anthro pony showing, and other things would be borderline, then leading into full-blown if sexual activities or certain private parts began to show.

 

That's my interpenetration anyway.

 

Thanks, that's quite how I would interpret it too, I just wanted to know the official interpretation.

[vinyl20 0]

would this system ban just the account or would it ban the ip itself because if the account people could just make a new email and keep breaking the rules

[Bronium 512]

I always wanted to ask this but at what point is something considered backseat moderation? What if a user said something like

"inb4 moved to [insert subforum]" and went on to write a fantastic post?

The post would probably be primarily about the topic and the insert was a tiny little joke to lighten the mood.

(Still confused, did read one GM post about it though)

 

Also what about suggestive, what would you consider to be suggestive? That would bring up a lot of argument, I would presume. Would it be just pictures or would this extend to racy jokes?

 

And what would a suspension include? Completely unable to access one's account or can he still PM and making status updates pertaining to his future (temporary) inactivity?

 

And is an eternal punishment an eternal loss of an account?

 

And does linking to potentially nsfw content count towards the nsfw or suggestive point total?

 

 

 

(I'm not going to do any of these things btw [you probably know that], just wanted to know these things).

Edited August 9, 2012 by Bronium

[Swoop 2,276]

I always wanted to ask this but at what point is something considered backseat moderation?

Here's a quick backseat moderation 101:

 

"If you could say the exact same thing to a moderator privately in a report, then don't go and post it publicly in a thread."

 

For example, "This thread should be in Cloudsdale, not General Discussion", "This has drifted off topic, and should be locked already" and "You shouldn't bypass the character limit like that" all count as backseat moderation, since each one of those incidences could have been simply reported to us, so we can effectively resolve them. On the other hand, helpful suggestions, recommendations, and anything you wouldn't submit as a report to a moderator, are completely fine.

 

Also, while I'm here…

 

@@Nouth, and any other members wondering about what constitutes certain rules.

 

It may be worth noting that we're currently working on a big comprehensive FAQ, which should (hopefully!) clear up any ambiguities or uncertainties members may have about rules, warnings, accounts, and just about everything else that happens to crop up in Site Questions and Feedback on a regular basis.

[Bronium 512]

Here's a quick backseat moderation 101:

 

"If you could say the exact same thing to a moderator privately in a report, then don't go and post it publicly in a thread."

 

For example, "This thread should be in Cloudsdale, not General Discussion", "This thread is off topic, and should be locked already" and "You shouldn't bypass the character limit like that" all count as backseat moderation, since each one those incidences could have been simply reported to us, so we can effectively resolve them. On the other hand, helpful suggestions, recommendations, and anything you wouldn't submit as a report to a moderator, is completely fine.

 

Also, while I'm here…

 

@@Nouth, and any other members wondering about what constitutes certain rules.

 

It may be worth knowing that we're currently working on a big comprehensive FAQ, which should (hopefully!) clear up any ambiguities or uncertainties members may have about rules, warnings, accounts, and just about everything else.

 

What if you accidentally do it, but it's not a major part of your post? Will we get a reduced number of points? Maybe a little message saying so and so is considered to be backseat modding and this is a little warning before the warning?

 

I mean, I would hate having a single point in my total (it would annoy the heck out of me) and sometimes the best way to learn is through an example.

[Swoop 2,276]

What if you accidentally do it, but it's not a major part of your post? Will we get a reduced number of points? Maybe a little message saying so and so is considered to be backseat modding and this is a little warning before the warning?

 

I mean, I would hate having a single point in my total (it would annoy the heck out of me) and sometimes the best way to learn is through an example.

 

We're still chewing over some the more particular aspects of the warning point system (unintentional offences included), so I'm afraid I can't give you an exact answer yet. Though, considering that I've never given a warning out for any accidental misdemeanors, I think It's safe to say that you would likely receive a reduced amount. Don't quote me on that though!

[FedoraMemes 582]

Ah, the good ol' points system.

 

I've seen this used on forums before, and I think it is much more efficient then leaving a warning, or banning them for a week or so. I would quite like to see some of the numbers go down a little bit, but as you said, we have to see how it goes.

[Evilshy 5,089]

Eh, I'm neutral on this at the moment. I'll wait till more things are fleshed out till I pass judgement.

 

I will say this, though: If we're going to have hard penalties (If you do X, Y will happen), then we also need clear definitions of what X and Y are. This kind of point system deciding disciplinary action magnifies problems born of inconsistent modding policies by staff.

[Princess_Molestia 1,460]

I like this idea! Hope this does bring the drama down...

 

Why not love everyone for who they are? D= (Unless people that hate us (haters) ya I really have no idead what I can do about haters.)

i was pointing out the bads ive seen i dont beleive those things

i meant you cant loe and tolerate all if some are excluded

[My little pwny 1,390]

InB4 3rd page. This is a long post.

 

I'm sorry mods, but I must protest this idea of a point system, at least in it's current form. I'm not spitting in the face of your idea, I am merely mentioning my reasons to why I hate the point system. I know my opinion carries little weight in the decision making process regarding forums policy changes, but please just make note of what I am about to say.

 

I have participated in forums since 2004 when I was 12 or 13, so I have been around the internet block more than once. In my experience, the point system idea has hardly ever solved the problem it was created to solve. You can manipulate the math all you want, but in the end, it will always punish the honest mistake and help the troll/flamer who is out to make real harm to others.

 

Here's an example from my personal experience. In a sports forum I participated in a while back I got banned because I made one to many honest mistakes. Things like posting a youtube video with a swear word got me points, and I once made reference to the abbreviation, MILK, with an F. Then one day in a debate with another member, he started getting mad at me. A few posts later I got perma-banned because he reported me before I could report him. The other dude was a lot more obnoxious and vulger than I, yet he still posts there to this day. I'm sure he got some points from that incident, but because I had a "track record" of being a "problem" in the forums, it was determined by some low ranking mod working the late shift to ban me that night.

 

Do you see a problem with this? Well, believe it or not, I haven't gotten to it yet. Every single "mistake" I made violated an obscure rule that wasn't very clear. When I asked the mod who assigned me points for my infraction, he said the rule was obscure so it could be open for interpretation. WHAT? In one instance when I mentioned that a player should die because he played poorly (satire, of course) a mod gave me some points. This wasn't the first time however because I had made the same jab before and I never got points for it.

 

Now connecting this to MLPforums, when I compare the rules on that website to this one, MLPforums is A LOT more vague on certain rules! But please note that some changes have been made to the sports forums rule page I just placed there, so some things have been made more clear since I've been banned. Also note that I had only made 4 infractions to the rules before I got permabanned from there, which is intriguing because I was still well below that bench mark.... but that's a different concern so don't worry about that detail.

 

In another forum about a certain game there was a point system. It was a sorta small size internet community but big enough to engage in continued discussion. Anyways, since the forum was small, everybody knew each other. There were always a few bad apples but for the most part discussion was positive. One day there was an incident where a big fight broke out. There was only 3 mods working the forums, so at the time the fight broke out no one was moderating.

 

Those bad apples I mentioned earlier knew the point system and rules backwards and forwards, so they knew how to find loopholes and push the limits of the point system. However, the other posters in this fight who are generally good members did not know the rules and point system as well as the bad apples, so they were caught and assigned points for their rule breaking. In this website, the site owner took the literal approach to enforcing rules. If anything was borderline he would ignore it because it didn't exactly break any rules. The bad apples took advantage of this.

 

Anyways, this fight that took place in this forum had the good posters swearing and calling others names, while the bad apples were using swearing substitutes and creative insults to avoid punishment. The good posters were punished, and some were banned permanently all because of a single rule that said no swearing.

 

These two examples I just gave point out that no matter what approach you take to the point system, bad things happen to good people and vice versa.

 

$@#$@#$@#$

 

Now to flaw number 2 of the point system. Let's use this tentative system you posted. 500 points gets you two days, 750 gets you a week, and 1000 gets your IP branded. The trouble makers of the forum are the ones you want to weed out, correct? Okay then, take a look at billy bob the troll over there and let's say he tries to pick a fight. That is 250 points and a warning. Now billy bob the troll is thinking, "Hmmmm, let's try this a little more slyly." Next time he tries to get a rise out of a member by telling him his spelling sucks or something. This behavior is borderline enough to tick off his target, but also avoid any additional points, as I alluded to in my previous point. Billy bob the troll keeps doing this, but eventually the mods catch on and assign him another 250 a week later. This gives him 475 points (because of the 25 reduction a week thing), not quite enough for a suspension.

 

So once again, billy bob the troll backs off and turns down the volume on his trolling for another day. The problem is, he's already caused damage to other member's points status through all his baiting. You say that every week 25 points gets reduced in order to account for the poster that makes that occasional "mistake". Okay fine, but if your intent is to really balance out people's mistakes, this isn't enough. Billy bob the troll baited 5 honest and well-to-do members into getting some points. 2 members have 100 points by trying to backseat moderate, 2 members have 250 by taking the troll bait and engaging in aggressive behavior, and finally 1 member posted a "Suggestive/borderline NSFW" picture telling the troll to buck off, awarding him 400 points.

 

Based on your solution to balance this out, they lose 25 per week.

 

It takes a month for the 100 point members to get back to 0.

It takes 2 and a half months for the 250 point members.

It takes 4 months for the 400 point member.

None of them got a ban, but now they are set up for failure during this time to get banned. The 100 point members are in the least bit of danger to get banned, so let's just focus on the 250 and 400 members.

 

2 1/2 to 4 months is a long time to forget you have points, and during this time, they are less careful than before they were when they initially got the warning. So now Billy bob the troll has come back more cunning than ever to try and bait the forum's members. Since it's been a month from their warning, they are at 150 and 300. One of the members doesn't take the bait, but the other two do. The 150 point member swears profusely at billy bob the troll and the 300 point member posts a gore image telling him to kill himself or something. Member 150 gets 250 so no big deal for now, he just gets 400 and is close to a temp ban.

 

On the other hand, the 300 member gets 750 and BAM! Eternal banishment. Sucks for him right? Well yeah, he may or may not have deserved that, but that's not my point. He is part of a minority of honest hotheads.

 

The point I'm making here is that trolls are still going to troll, and points aren't going to stop them. In fact you increase the troll problem because now the point system is a more tangible way to disrupt others; a tool for them to use.

 

@#$@#$@#$@#$

 

Point number 3.

 

Remember those 100 point members who were backseat moderating earlier? Yeah, the ones I told you to brush off. Well, guess what, nothing has changed. They can still backseat moderate without any consequence for up to 5 or 6+ times depending on the frequency. You didn't reduce that problem much at all. Same thing goes for the members who bypass the word count or post something off-topic. They all get a negligible number of points and they don't have any consequences while they continue to do small time "crime". In theory, an off topic poster can post random spam on the forums 14 times at once without getting banned: 14 * 35 = 490. Is that helping the problem? No.

 

@#$@#$@#$@#$

 

Look, I only posted all this crap (which took me a long time to type out) because I REALLY REALLY discourage the use of a point system!!! PLEASE don't do this! My personal experience and the experience of others show that a point system is a bad plan and has failed time and time again only to disturb the original purpose of the site.

 

Trolls actively look for forum sites that have a point system so they can manipulate users into getting themselves banned. Imagine getting one of the subscribers banned? Or a certain member that brings in traffic gets banned? It could happen.... I've seen things like that happen. If a member donated money to the site and got banned, it would break their heart because now they don't get to enjoy the site they were passionate enough to donate to.

 

_________________________________________________

 

 

TL;DR. If you are to lazy to read my wall of text above, don't comment on this post. To feld0 and the other mods, if you are so insistent to change the rule enforcement policy on this site, consider instead a three strikes your out system. Regardless of the infraction, each rule break results in a strike. If a member gets 3 strikes s/he's perma-banned. However, every member can get a fresh set of three strikes through a successful ban appeal check. If one of the top admins decides if that member's reasons s/he got those strikes was minor and was honest, that member can return. It would be a case by case deal.

 

It's late, time for bed.

 

/rant

Edited August 9, 2012 by My little pwny