Lack of positive male role models

[Simon 4,554]

Alright everybody, the feminism debate is going to end on this thread right here.

 

We already have a place to debate feminism in the debate pit.  There's absolutely no reason to be debating feminism on this thread.  The OP asked whether we felt My Little Pony should have more positive male role models.  This thread had only a very minimal connection with feminism, so turning this thread into a debate on feminism and women's right issues is completely off topic.  Please take this debate to the debate pit thread linked above, or leave it off the forum completely.

 

Please be sure to stay on topic in this thread so that it can stay open for everybody to discuss.  If you see any off-topic posts, please report them and do not respond so that the discussion in the thread will stay on topic.

 

Thanks everybody!

[Singe 2,109]

Male characters are few and far in between, but when one makes an appearance to stand out it's a unique thing. The major draw of the show is the large amount of focus on female pony characters.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Singe

[Heliodor 156]

In my opinion it doesn't need any, because this show is female-focused (unlike 99% of everything ever). There are good male characters like Spike and Big Mac they just aren't the complete focus of the show. And that's fine.

[ShyPie 164]

 

CITRUS KING46, on 19 Sept 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

Pretty sure everyone else has said something similar, but I think you're sort of cherry-picking the worst qualities of a kid who saved an entire nation from enslavement, the captain of the royal guard, and...wait, what?

 

Discord wasn't written to be a model of anything. At all. You know not every character is suppose to be a model of something, right? Like, Rakin Bass wasn't trying to convince us all Germans were evil toy-hating fatsos when they created the Burgermeister Meisterburger.

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

Why can't boys use girl characters as role models? The Mane Six are clever, accomplished, are constantly trying to grow and become better, and they kick ass. Any kid would be lucky to have that as a role model, boy or girl. As long as the show isn't saying girls are better than boys, which it has never done, than who cares?

 

Just in case people missed it in my OP, I really wasn't being serious with what I called my "ridiculous, over the top analysis" and did say "I personally didn't believe in it". I was just having some fun with the over analysis and hoping to start an interesting discussion...which certainly did happen 

 

 

My honest stance on the show is that, like many others have already said, the mane 6 are great role models in and of themselves regardless of their or viewers gender. I personally don't believe gender should ever be an issue with characters, all characters should be able to be approached from a gender neutral perspective, eg. Rainbow Dash could be swapped out for being a stallion and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to her character. They are who they are, regardless of gender. Any point that I would make as to male role models wouldn't be that male role models are needed in the show for guys, but for girls too. But, like plenty of ponies here have stated, and I agree, any positive role model, again regardless of gender, is a good thing.

 

 

Rewatch Applebuck season. He shared his feelings plenty there. Also Ponyville Confidential. I like to think he represents the quiet intellectual observer. Wisdom that doesn't wait to speak ... but rather openly listens. When the quiet guy speaks ... people tend to listen with rapt attention.

 

My own view of Big Mac is that he is very much in the mould of the classic John Wayne, "quiet man" role. He thinks deeply about things, but only speaks when he feels it is something worth saying. A can with just one bean in it makes more noise than a full can.

 

I'm sorry and saddened the way this topic went with @ScumCandy. Can't we all just get along? 

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

In my opinion it doesn't need any, because this show is female-focused (unlike 99% of everything ever). There are good male characters like Spike and Big Mac they just aren't the complete focus of the show. And that's fine.

Thats a very skewed and entirely subjective self-content on the show's standards. I know you so i will say this... Just because the show "is" something doesn't mean it shouldn't, can't, mustn't, be something more than just that.

 

The show is not "perfect as is" as you might think ((not saying you do)) simply because perfection is a moving target.

 

If adding some male role models is the way to make the show better then so be it. Afterall there are women who feel tomboyish and men who feel feminine. Example is Spike who wanted to go to the Gala but acted like froufrou girly nonesense weren't "manly" enough for him. Another of Spike's examples are secret of my excess and Power Ponies.

 

Spike is there... And if he contious to grow up ((maybe get some wings find his father and/or mother)) he'll be a good role model for male growth.

 

Plus Shining Armor is a good guy too...

 

This confirms that while mlp might not need male role models it hasn't lost an inch by adding some ((take Fancy Pants for example.)) It also has showed that adding male characters ((Cheese Sandwich)) never hurts but it can really help the female cast.

 

So don't be so close minded in the adding of male rolemodels. Their interaction with the female can lead to very good stuff.

[Mephala 2,633]

I don't think every character needs to be a role model based on their gender/sex. Growing up, almost all my role models were male, and not because they were men. In fact, I probably wasn't even focused on their gender. Deeds speak louder than words, and, in this case, gender/sex. I liked them and respected them because of what they did and not because of where they came from.

I enjoy being a girl, and I enjoy learning from people. Having more "male role models" does not matter, because any character - male or female - can be a role model for anybody - male or female. Getting hung up on that MLP is for little girls only perpetuates divides and stereotypes that have led to a lot of bullying and other emotional (and in some cases physical) harm. Seek strong moral codes and personalities rather than seeking someone out as a "good role model" because they happen to be a woman. It's good to be diverse and have a mixture of male and female characters, but don't take television like it's going to be the number one thing that teaches you how to act as a person, because if you do, that's a very dangerous mindset that will only hurt you.

 

In any case, I don't really pay attention to the characters as role models. I don't watch MLP to make me "think", I watch it because I enjoy it and I don't need to place any value into it personally.

 

If you want an example of a show that balances very well, Adventure Time? Almost all the recurring "strong" characters happen to be women despite the fact that the main two characters are both males.

Edited September 20, 2014 by C9 Bubble

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

I don't think every character needs to be a role model based on their gender/sex. Growing up, almost all my role models were male, and not because they were men. In fact, I probably wasn't even focused on their gender. Deeds speak louder than words, and, in this case, gender/sex. I liked them and respected them because of what they did and not because of where they came from.

I enjoy being a girl, and I enjoy learning from people. Having more "male role models" does not matter, because any character - male or female - can be a role model for anybody - male or female. Getting hung up on that MLP is for little girls only perpetuates divides and stereotypes that have led to a lot of bullying and other emotional (and in some cases physical) harm. Seek strong moral codes and personalities rather than seeking someone out as a "good role model" because they happen to be a woman. It's good to be diverse and have a mixture of male and female characters, but don't take television like it's going to be the number one thing that teaches you how to act as a person, because if you do, that's a very dangerous mindset that will only hurt you.

 

In any case, I don't really pay attention to the characters as role models. I don't watch MLP to make me "think", I watch it because I enjoy it and I don't need to place any value into it personally.

 

If you want an example of a show that balances very well, Adventure Time? Almost all the recurring "strong" characters happen to be women despite the fact that the main two characters are both males.

The matter of identifying with the same gender is easier hasn't slipped your mind? Sure not all do but the more you have similar with your role models the easier you find it to get closer to what they are.

[Stellafera 3,835]

The matter of identifying with the same gender is easier hasn't slipped your mind? Sure not all do but the more you have similar with your role models the easier you find it to get closer to what they are.

 

The thing that confuses me about this argument is that if you look at a list of some of the ways ways the Mane 6 are different from a human male:

• Different species
• Magic
• Ruled by a benevolent and reliable dictatorship
• Cutie Marks
• Being female

Gender is a divide you have with 50% of the population. "Magical talking horse" is one you have with none. So we can identify with a magical horse, but only if it's the same gender as us?

[rainbowsmash13 53]

I would also like to point out that men don't have ever other show. The Simpsons the men Homor and Bart are depicted as stupid while Lisa is depicted as smart and will grow to be successful Bart will be a failure. Bart is happy than Lisa so I guess that is a win

 

In house the main character is male but he is also a drug addicted loser who will never be happy. While the female characters are shown as strong and have little character flaw's Cameron is too nice and Cuddy is almost perfect

 

I honestly struggle to find male role models in TV fiction even in SpongeBob the male characters are flowed while Sandy is the smartest the strongest and most reliable of all characters.

The reason for this I think is that if you write the straight white male you can write them any way you want without offending people because they have no stereotypes

[Buttershot 51]

let the girls have this one.

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

The thing that confuses me about this argument is that if you look at a list of some of the ways ways the Mane 6 are different from a human male:

• Different species
• Magic
• Ruled by a benevolent and reliable dictatorship
• Cutie Marks
• Being female

Gender is a divide you have with 50% of the population. "Magical talking horse" is one you have with none. So we can identify with a magical horse, but only if it's the same gender as us?

Its a factor. And its ONE way to identify with a role model.

 

Besides if you can get past the world differencies you will see that we aren't so different.

 

Sometimes the differences and idealism gap between our world and fim can be a way for us to chase that dream. Whether it be jealousy aspiration or hope its a form of motivation.

 

So yes gender is a factor on familiarity that makes it easier for the mind to approach another person. Hence why boys hang out with boys and girls with girls. Its not absolute but its there.

let the girls have this one.

Share it you greedy lass

[Buttershot 51]

haha!! I think the show does pretty good without stinky ol' boys    there's even a whole HUGE fan base about it!!     

 

But really though, do y'all think it'll change in the future? If so, what would the male character be like? 

Can I post this question here?

[Wind Chaser 4,767]

I would also like to point out that men don't have ever other show. The Simpsons the men Homor and Bart are depicted as stupid while Lisa is depicted as smart and will grow to be successful Bart will be a failure. Bart is happy than Lisa so I guess that is a win

 

In house the main character is male but he is also a drug addicted loser who will never be happy. While the female characters are shown as strong and have little character flaw's Cameron is too nice and Cuddy is almost perfect

 

I honestly struggle to find male role models in TV fiction even in SpongeBob the male characters are flowed while Sandy is the smartest the strongest and most reliable of all characters.

The reason for this I think is that if you write the straight white male you can write them any way you want without offending people because they have no stereotypes

It's not like men don't have positive role models at all (after all, look at all the superheroes, for one), but it is true, negative portrayals are rampant and the white male (though sometimes minority males can fall into this trap, too) seems to be the the only one where you can get away with as much as you can.

 

It would just be good to counterbalance the negative and stereotypical portrayals that are everywhere with at least just one dent.

 

For a show focused on girls, the main thing I'm concerned with is that by marginalizing the development of the male characters and making them the more likely targets for jokes, we don't want the one show we credit for cracking the gender wall by giving girls a good show that guys can also enjoy to continue putting up the wall of the gender divide by giving girls the wrong impression about their male counterparts, and so some observers wouldn't be so quick to see the show as misandrist. It goes against the inclusive nature the show and franchise were founded on.

 

While de facto male role models are a take-it or leave-it, subjective presence on this show depending on who the observer is, it's pretty obvious that even the male main character, Spike, is written inconsistenly and afforded less clear development than his female counterparts. He is rarely afforded the opportunities to mature, and the closest things to good Spike episodes that exist IMO, "Dragon Quest" and "Secret of My Excess", really do more to develop the dragon species and culture in Equestria rather than Spike himself as a character. (If you think over the prospect that a dragon raised in Equestria is not allowed to physically mature, lest greed get to him, it really becomes kind of a bit dark and propagates my theory of the "Pony Master Race".)

 

Priority number one for me would be to change how Spike is written with respect to him as a character and a non-pony living in Equestria. There is a lot of potential in this character with respect to his future, self-image, and background that is being squandered for the purpose of cheap jokes. Spike episodes, in contrast to their middling quality, have some of the better morals in the show ("Dragon Quest" and "Equestria Games" come to mind). With the promising prospects of a good moral, developing an underdeveloped character, exploring such themes, and improving male representation in the show, this seems like a win-win situation on the whole and there's no reason why it shouldn't be done.

[rainbowsmash13 53]

It's not like men don't have positive role models at all (after all, look at all the superheroes, for one), but it is true, negative portrayals are rampant and the white male (though sometimes minority males can fall into this trap, too) seems to be the the only one where you can get away with as much as you can.

 

It would just be good to counterbalance the negative and stereotypical portrayals that are everywhere with at least just one dent.

 

For a show focused on girls, the main thing I'm concerned with is that by marginalizing the development of the male characters and making them the more likely targets for jokes, we don't want the one show we credit for cracking the gender wall by giving girls a good show that guys can also enjoy to continue putting up the wall of the gender divide by giving girls the wrong impression about their male counterparts, and so some observers wouldn't be so quick to see the show as misandrist. It goes against the inclusive nature the show and franchise were founded on.

 

While de facto male role models are a take-it or leave-it, subjective presence on this show depending on who the observer is, it's pretty obvious that even the male main character, Spike, is written inconsistenly and afforded less clear development than his female counterparts. He is rarely afforded the opportunities to mature, and the closest things to good Spike episodes that exist IMO, "Dragon Quest" and "Secret of My Excess", really do more to develop the dragon species and culture in Equestria rather than Spike himself as a character. (If you think over the prospect that a dragon raised in Equestria is not allowed to physically mature, lest greed get to him, it really becomes kind of a bit dark and propagates my theory of the "Pony Master Race".)

 

Priority number one for me would be to change how Spike is written with respect to him as a character and a non-pony living in Equestria. There is a lot of potential in this character with respect to his future, self-image, and background that is being squandered for the purpose of cheap jokes. Spike episodes, in contrast to their middling quality, have some of the better morals in the show ("Dragon Quest" and "Equestria Games" come to mind). With the promising prospects of a good moral, developing an underdeveloped character, exploring such themes, and improving male representation in the show, this seems like a win-win situation on the whole and there's no reason why it shouldn't be done.

I  did not say men have no role model's I was just responding to her saying every other show. And I don't think a lot of superhero's make realistic role models like Spiderman he is to smart the reason he gets anything he gets is because he is smart and has superpowers . Superman is not someone you can be not even Clark Kent can be superman he is a impossible ideal to strive towards. Goku  is a good role model but he is also a stereotypic white knight there to be strong to protect the weak this is a gender stereotype.

And I don't mind the lack of men in the show it is for girls after all, I suppose they could make an episode about spike lacking a male roll model and than he meets Scorpan and learns that ironically Twilight and his friends also thought him how to be a man

[Jeric 46,835]

 

 

So we can identify with a magical horse, but only if it's the same gender as us?

 

I have nothing to add to what you posted Stellafera, but as always you have this surgical way of saying the exact right thing to underscore your point.

[The Crimson Cross 7,532]

I've thought of this occasionally, I noticed that Snips and Snails seemed to be morons, but hey! I find it funny to some extent!

I'm pretty sure a similar kind of thing has happened in Powerpuff Girls, one of Faust's older cartoons.

 

I'm not complaining though! This age sure has had it's lack of strong female characters!

Most of the male characters, as rare as they might be do strike a pretty bad impression though..

*cough* Blueblood *cough* *cough*

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

haha!! I think the show does pretty good without stinky ol' boys there's even a whole HUGE fan base about it!!

 

But really though, do y'all think it'll change in the future? If so, what would the male character be like?

Can I post this question here?

Dunno if it will change but i wouldnt mind some positive signs.

I have nothing to add to what you posted Stellafera, but as always you have this surgical way of saying the exact right thing to underscore your point.

Really? And whats the point? That we cant identify with said characters? Then i am sorry to say but since that goes no more magical friendship lessons for you. I mean if its magical horses being friends then it cant possibly apply to the real world?

[Stellafera 3,835]

Really? And whats the point? That we cant identify with said characters? Then i am sorry to say but since that goes no more magical friendship lessons for you. I mean if its magical horses being friends then it cant possibly apply to the real world?

 

Not at all! I meant that we can identify with magical talking horses being friends. We're able to overcome the differences between our world and that fictional world and relate it to ourselves.

 

Ergo, we should likewise be able to overcome the differences between one gender and another with these characters, or, ideally, in the real world between our fellow (wo)man. 

[Jeric 46,835]

 

 

Really?

 

Yes

 

 

 

And whats the point?

 

Identification with characterization is not specific or tied to gender in this show.

 

 

 

That we cant identify with said characters?

 

Interception. It's going the other way.

 

 

 

Then i am sorry to say but since that goes no more magical friendship lessons for you.

 

See above

 

 

 

I mean if its magical horses being friends then it cant possibly apply to the real world?

 

See above

 

 

 

---

 

You are a writer no? What do the Elements of Style teach us regarding characterization?

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

Yes

 

 

Identification with characterization is not specific or tied to gender in this show.

 

 

Interception. It's going the other way.

 

 

See above

 

 

See above

 

 

 

---

 

You are a writer no? What do the Elements of Style teach us regarding characterization?

I was being sarcastic and rhetorical.

 

Not saying identical don't skew my posts and read above...

 

I said the more common points you have with someone the easier it is to take the words to heart.

 

Not at all! I meant that we can identify with magical talking horses being friends. We're able to overcome the differences between our world and that fictional world and relate it to ourselves.

 

Ergo, we should likewise be able to overcome the differences between one gender and another with these characters, or, ideally, in the real world between our fellow (wo)man.

That doesn't have to do anything with what i said about it becoming easier with the more common points you have with a character.

 

For example based on your assumption lets make every show gender specific on the cast. Lets see how nice that becomes.

[Jeric 46,835]

Not saying identical don't skew my posts and read above... I said the more common points you have with someone the easier it is to take the words to heart.

 

Um, you quoted a post I made that was basically me saying, "Hey Stellafera, I like your post."

 

 

Annnnnnyway.

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree in the general sense on whether the show needs a male role model, and whether it would elevate the show further. You say yes ... I say no.

 

Now ... to the RFC Batman.

 

*poofs*

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

Um, you quoted a post I made that was basically me saying, "Hey Stellafera, I like your post."

 

 

Annnnnnyway.

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree in the general sense on whether the show needs a male role model, and whether it would elevate the show further. You say yes ... I say no.

 

Now ... to the RFC Batman.

 

*poofs*

I never said it would elevate it. But it would never harm it.

[ggg-2 3,550]

Shining Armor also seems like a great, if not perfect, role model for how to treat a younger sibling. While many older brothers in TV and other media, for lack of a better way of putting it, don't give a rat's ass about their younger sibling, Shining Armor is very affectionate towards his sister and, with the obvious exception of his wife, it's obvious that he loves Twilight more than anything in Equestria.

[Mephala 2,633]

The matter of identifying with the same gender is easier hasn't slipped your mind? Sure not all do but the more you have similar with your role models the easier you find it to get closer to what they are.

The "matter of identifying with the same gender" does not apply to me, so I don't really give a shit about that. I don't "identify" with most females and I would rather not shove myself into a "gender specific" box, please and thanks.

I clarified what I meant about role models and how I identify with them in my post above already so I am not going to repeat myself. Reread it if you would like. The keywords of your post are "not all do [identify with the same gender]", so I'm not sure why you specifically decided to say this to me when others already have made this point.

Edited September 20, 2014 by C9 Bubble

[Savannah 39]

Y U ALL FORGET SPIKE! HE'S A THING TOO!