Bronies defying gender roles.... A bunch of nonsense?

[CupcakeEmpire 58]

I'm probably going to get a little backlash for this, but don't judge until you read the entire paragraph...

 

A lot of people, both inside and outside the fandom, talk about how male Bronies are basically defying gender roles.  They're watching a show about colorful ponies, after all, in a society where men are expected to like violence, blood, and boobs.  It's a good point, of course.  But what I've noticed is that male Bronies (most of them) aren't really defying gender roles at all.  Let me elaborate:  Yes, they watch a show full of colorful ponies, something thought to be for females only.  But I've seen Bronies trying to defend their love for the show by pointing out how manly it supposedly is underneath the girly stuff.  Remember that Twilight vs. Tirek battle from the season 4 finale?  Half the comments on YouTube were something along the lines of "If it has an epic battle in it, there's no way it's for little girls", heavily implying that anything with a cool battle scene in it is automatically masculine and "proves" that the show can be for men as well.  The same thing happens with all battle scenes in MLP that are posted on YouTube.  At least half of the comments are male Bronies trying to use the battle scene as proof that the show can be enjoyed by men.  In other words, they're just aiding the traditional idea that men are supposed to like violence and explosions, rather than pointing to the show at large and saying "This show is well-written".  I know not all Bronies are like this, but there are a decent few.  My main point is that not all Bronies are defying gender roles.  Quite a large number of them are just trying to make the show fit into their gender role.  

 

Your thoughts?  

[Ponyville728 24]

It's a little bit of both. I agree, but to be honest most of the fans say the "but it's actually manlyyyyy" thing to "soften the blow" with people that may not appreciate the defiance of gender roles to begin with. In debate, one of the best tactics (if you can pull it off) is to assume your opponent's logic is true and then construct an argument that fits it. This is no different. There's a time and a place to say everything, and if all you want is to win an argument about ponies then it's oftentimes best to educate haters about their misconceptions rather than try to directly attack their belief system and/or claim that you're doing something that they don't even think is right.

[Shadowking58 1,137]

You know, I've never thought of it that way.

[Kookie 135]

Hmmm, this is just like saying "Anime is for kids" but look at all the gore, sexuality, and other rated 18 stuff anime can do.

 

So defying gender roles, I agree in some point but the part I most agree with is "I know not all Bronies are like this, but there are a decent few." That is true because not all bronies are like that and some pegasisters are also into violence. What comes to our mind when we talk about "men"? Let me see: sports, guns, fitness, violence, masculinity, personal hygiene, money etc. A show that is intended for girls, it can also produce scenes where boys can also enjoy the show. (Besides the pretty ponies and their lovely butts showing all the time.)

 

The show must be aiming for G since it's General Viewing and it aims for everyone.

[Pinkamena-Pills 6,839]

I couldn't care less. I enjoy mlp because i enjoy it, not because i think it's 'masculine in some secret hidden way'. 

 

Also, the battle scene you speak of, a woman can be a badass also, and im not sure why it's always thought women can't be. Honestly, the prospect of a horned centaur man-thing shooting lasers is a far less terrifying prospect in my mind than a angry, pissed off, purple pony princess shooting bootleg kamehamehah's from her horn. So i enjoyed the battle scene in Twilight Kingdom not because i thought it was "masculine", but because it reminded me that "women are tough, scary tough". 

 

But i can't speak for everyone, so maybe some bronies do think liking mlp is somehow 'secretly masculine'. Well, perhaps it just is, because being "masculine" is being a "man" correct? And last time i checked, a "man" shouldn't give a damn what people think on the subject of what tv show they watch and love. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Pinkamena-Pills

[Fluttershyfan94 5,742]

Not really, the show is enjoyed by everyone it's more that bronies are tough enough to admit it. That's real toughness being able to stand by something that others fear doing.

[NavelColt 22,880]

This thread's main point of arguement seems to be about comments posted on Youtube.

Whoo boy, this is a fault in of itself, but I'll humor you, bro.

 

X numbers of fans of the show have been grabbing individual scenes of certain seasons that they like to try and shove on haters and non-fans in the hopes of taunting them back with 'lol this ISN'T for little girls' since season 1. Regardless of all that, the show itself challenges many of the (highly stupid) gender role stereotypes that society has set up, and it's been so since season 1 as well. It's something Lauren Faust is very good at it in her cartoon creations, because she is of the firm belief that these gender roles should not dictate what genders do what, and how they enjoy things.

 

Bronies trying to make the show sound more masculine on the internet sounds more like (and in my experience usually is) an arguement point of view that fans use when debating with haters and non-fans who are too stubborn, bigoted and moronic to listen to the 'boys and girls can like things one another like' arguement. In other words, the 'this is masculine, see?' arguement is quite often a fallback arguement that a lot of bronies (especially the Youtube ones who aren't intelligent enough to not debate with morons in the first place) use when they can't win using the gender nuetrality arguement.

 

Hater: Lol this girly shit is stupid all you gay bronies shouldn't be watching this hurr gon go hunt some deer and be maaanllyyyyyy

 

Brony: The show promotes the fact that gender roles are stupid, sexist and outdated; boys can like things society deems only girls should like, without automatically being 'gay' somehow.

 

Hater: Lol you're so gay dude what kinda girly message is that

 

Brony: YEAH WELL. LOOK AT THESE SCENES. IT'S LIKE, DBZ AND SHIT. THAT'S MANLY. SO YOU'RE AN IDIOT

 

Still many other bronies go straight to this arguement, because they're more interested in tripping the haters up by showing them dark, intense scenes they probably haven't seen, as they bitch about how girly the show is, rather than being honest and trying to change the hater's opinions. There is in fact appeal here for many, as most haters and non-fans who bash on the show and/or its' fanbase haven't really watched much of anything, if anything, despite how they spend so much time whining and insulting the show and the fans.

 

So, yeah, there is quite a lot of what you're talking about. But I don't think that's a reliable measuring device of how many people are or aren't actually defying stereotypes. Especially when Youtube is the medium you're using. Most people who argue in Youtube comments are either idiots, or they're just looking to make unintelligent trolls look stupid by not -seriously- arguing with them, but instead giving them content that shows the contrary to what they're spouting about. Wouldn't think those people would be accurate representations of the majority of the fandom.

 

It's 8 AM, I haven't slept, and I'm being way too wordy; and am likely repeating shit in different vocabulary.

Read the below if nothing else.

 

The lessen here is, people go on the internet and they take on an anonymity mask. Just as most trolls don't troll around in real life, a lot of these bronies who engage in arguements are just looking to make the other person look stupid, rather than actually seriously debate with them; the quicket route to that is to post a scene completely reverse in nature to what the trolls are whining about. I'd say this proccess is far too shallow to use as grounds for an assumption that bronies are or aren't doing X. Because at the end of the day it's just people spiting one another on the internet.

[Radiance64 7,053]

It is nonsense, the whole concept of gender roles relating to entertainment tastes is... the only thing gender matters in is genetics, and I'm pretty sure genetics don't factor much into taste in TV shows.

[Guest]

I couldn't care less. I enjoy mlp because i enjoy it, not because i think it's 'masculine in some secret hidden way'. 

 

Also, the battle scene you speak of, a woman can be a badass also, and im not sure why it's always thought women can't be. Honestly, the prospect of a horned centaur man-thing shooting lasers is a far less terrifying prospect in my mind than a angry, pissed off, purple pony princess shooting bootleg kamehamehah's from her horn. So i enjoyed the battle scene in Twilight Kingdom not because i thought it was "masculine", but because it reminded me that "women are tough, scary tough". 

 

But i can't speak for everyone, so maybe some bronies do think liking mlp is somehow 'secretly masculine'. Well, perhaps it just is, because being "masculine" is being a "man" correct? And last time i checked, a "man" shouldn't give a damn what people think on the subject of what tv show they watch and love. 

I feel exactly the same so consider this 'seconded'

[Shanks 10,816]

A lot of bronies are very defensive about their love of ponies which does prompt alot of the comments about MLP not being "girly" or them liking MLP despite the "girly" parts. But there are also a lot of bronies who say that because they are trying to say that the show at first glance appears to be stereotypically girly but in many ways goes above and beyond this. The fact that so many teenage and adult males are watching this does speak to a changing attitude about gender roles but since such change dosen't happen overnight I can see how some bronies might still be trapped in certain gender roles that the show seems to be against.

[TenorSounds 832]

It is nonsense, the whole concept of gender roles relating to entertainment tastes is... the only thing gender matters in is genetics, and I'm pretty sure genetics don't factor much into taste in TV shows.

 

That's actually completely incorrect: sex is determined by genetics, gender is a societal construct and as such has very much to do with the entertainment we consume.

[Envy 6,159]

I have noticed this very same thing.

 

When I heard of the fandom I was so thrilled to see guys actually liking something for girls (most aren't secure enough for that), but eventually I noticed that the fandom is not quite that progressive. Comments saying that the show is good DESPITE being for girls is very common... And then there's a topic that pops up all of the time around here that goes something like "MLP is gender-neutral, not for girls anymore". Like... The show is actually good, and a fair bit of the fandom can't admit that it is good while simultaneously seeing it as media intended for girls. That is a bit sexist, and most certainly is not defying any gender roles.

 

Combine all of the above with the overabunbance of porn drawings and charactarizations of the characters that are dehumanizing and very incompatible with how they're actually depicted in the show, and, of course, the violent fan-creations and I just... I can't see this fandom as so great and progressive anymore.

 

As a feminist, I'm all about men not being subjected to these stupid gender roles, which are all rooted in women and feminity being seen as inferior. But somehow this fandom came around with the guise of "Look at us, we're all about destroying gender roles", yet they're only working to reinforce them, especially in the public's eyes. When mothers see their child run into porn of their favorite character they're going to immediately think "This is why grown men should never watch a show for little girls", while I'm wondering why exactly it is this fandom even needs all of this... Shouldn't they be all about enjoying the show for what it is? If the fandom could become about that, then maybe then, and only then, would it be fighting harmful gender roles.

[kanashimi purinsesu 244]

Gender Roles lol, tell that to the majority of population out there that does stuff cause they like it and not cause they are expected to. You actually might be surprised just how open most ponies out there are. The internet is a whole different ball game though. Cesspit it has become, all that potential gone in a decade. Nah im just kidding, theres lots of sensible folks on the web too.

 

 

However, I didn't know gluing your eyes to a screen viewing something you enjoy was something Masculine/Feminine. I need to do more human studies classes methinks.

Edited October 22, 2014 by oPinkeroo4Uo

[Bright Bastion 241]

I don't care for gender roles at all mostly. I might joke around by saying somethings really girlly, but I don't have people to talk about my little pony too so that never really comes up.

 

 

Hmmm, this is just like saying "Anime is for kids" but look at all the gore, sexuality, and other rated 18 stuff anime can do.

And it really bothers me that people who don't watch anime are one way or the other about it. Either they think it's for kids, or they think it's just porn.

[Radiance64 7,053]

That's actually completely incorrect: sex is determined by genetics, gender is a societal construct and as such has very much to do with the entertainment we consume.

It doesn't have to though. I mean, people can go and make products intended for different gender/age demographics all they want, but all kinds of products end up appealing to all kinds of demographics anyway. I mean, sure, there are products that are clearly meant for certain demographics, but sometimes it isn't always so clear.

[TenorSounds 832]

It doesn't have to though. I mean, people can go and make products intended for different gender/age demographics all they want, but all kinds of products end up appealing to all kinds of demographics anyway. I mean, sure, there are products that are clearly meant for certain demographics, but sometimes it isn't always so clear.

And I can mosty agree with that, just wanted to correct the oft-mentioned misunderstanding that sex = gender.

[King Sejong 859]

   Gender roles has been changed and redefined throughout our millenniums existence, now we are in a time of big change, the internet has liberated us from the traditional data given to us from film and television. It is human nature to defy things we do not agree with, especially when times change, and our reality shifts into a new epoch, gender defiance have been around for decades, well before My Little Pony was a franchise, it was slow at first, now it is swift, so people who favour traditional values, are as defensive as those who embrace change. Gender has been a cultural role, so we tend to forget the natural and instinct behaviour we each possess, nevertheless, we do not have to let gender limit us to a few things to enjoy, I watch MLP-FiM, I am a brony, I was in the military and I am very gentle millennial, I watch My Little Pony because I love it, and no one will every prevent me from enjoying it, I resist gender roles in other ways, that does not involve MLP, plus I know when to resist, and when to just sit back and watch ponies, with my new brony and pegasister friends.       

[-BleachedOne- 233]

To be honest? I live by the mantra "Watch what you like, like what you want to like." The anime is for kids argument is baseless as well, and a show like MLP...if you like it, watch it. Who cares what other people think. Hell, I watched Sailor Moon with my cousin when I was younger, up until I was like 13. Of course, nowadays that's pretty standard fare for everyone, but I still didn't let anybody's opinion of it get to me. *shrug*

[Sceethe 704]

i don´t think those people actually know what a gender role is.

bronies aren´t defying gender roles, at all.

they are defying gender stereotypes.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Couldn't disagree more . . . respectfully of course.

 

Saying it's "manly" is, at it's heart, a self-parodying facade. Taking something obviously not masculine and saying it is ironically, while still enjoying the show itself sincerely. We all have the Jungian Anima and Animus inside us, our ideal feminine and ideal masculine. To deny one or the other in anything is denying half of the human experience.

 

Men and women are both complex in their own ways, with plenty of overlap between each. For instance, fights are often viewed as "manliness" but so is being intelligent and chivalrous. Fierce protection of family and friends is very much a feminine ideal, but so is compassion and forgiveness.

 

To say My Little Pony is the Mr. Torgue, Saxton Hale testosterone fest kind of "manliness" is at best a good laugh and at worst a self-delusion to buffer the fear that one actually is defying gender roles. The bronies that say that, are actually acting less like men and more like children for not having the maturity and courage to own up to their own interests. In all things, first be sincere.

 

I think, as Lauren's original intent, programming aimed at girls can be about themes such as grand conflict as well as emotional conflict. Those are themes we connect with regardless of gender.

 

I would say most of us know we are, in fact, turning the expectations of society on it's head. Not just because we like something aimed at girls, but because we like something aimed at children. It's the whole "man child" thing.

 

If you like something that's for children, you obviously haven't progressed past that point.

 

Is the logic. Which is of course, easily disproven. Why is it "okay" for me to like Borderlands, which has guns, buried treasure, and maniacs of all colors of the rainbow but not "okay" for me to like My Little Pony, which has magic, lost treasure, and crazy ponies of all . . . colors . . . of the . . . .

 

See what I mean?

 

People shouldn't be judged for the media they like, what speaks to their character is why they like it!  

Edited December 2, 2014 by Steel Accord

[RavenholmZombie 1,330]

I really don't care about Gender Roles, I just watch MLP because I enjoy it.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

There is a lot of quantities being thrown around in that first post. The title implies a totality then it goes to "not all bronies" to "decent few" to "quite a large number". When a firm quantity can't even be established in thought then that is not a good thing. As for the concept, I think those that are trying to rationalize their viewing of MLP by using gender roles are probably missing the point. They are still trapped by it in a way.

[Radiance64 7,053]

And I can mosty agree with that, just wanted to correct the oft-mentioned misunderstanding that sex = gender.

Yeah, that can certainly be true. Be who ya wanna be, like what ya wanna like, yadda yadda yadda.

[Virgil 685]

I can't help but think that this situation is the result of marketing campaigns since the 1950s in North America, that play upon the most repugnant of stereotypes for both genders. Which in the case of males in North America, any man who departs from the "Spike TV" version of masculinity is unmanly or somehow defying gender stereotypes. Which is nonsense when these "gender defying" activities are compared with what would have been perfectly masculine about a 100 years ago; such as ballet, flower arranging, and don't get me started on literature ( does anyone read old poetry anymore?). Which leads me to a general principal in most instances; that it is not the activity itself which is masculine or feminine, but how one does the activity in question.

 

For as a number of posters here have already noted, Bronies in defense of the fandom, fall into downright sexist modes of thought unintentionally. By watching MLP, I make the statement that things made for all ages, should be entertaining to all ages and genders. If you wish to watch something that actually challenges sexist ideas watch a Hayao Miyazaki film, which are very feminist in tone.

 

Slight modification to my post: As far as the show MLP is concerned, there is one episode which is directly addressing gender stereotypes, especially in modern media. Which would be the season finale for season one, which systematically destroys a number of such modern tropes aimed at young girls, culminating in one of my favorite scenes from the series, Rarity smashing the glass slipper ( aka the bite me Walt Disney scene ).

[SilverLine 20]

Some girls like a little action. The Sailor Moon series have some girly qualities in them but have lots of action. The anime was watched by both girls and boys alike.

Of coarse, the main point is that both males and females have different personalities and thoughts, and they enjoy anything which stimulates their interest. If men like a show with "girly" ponies, I have no problem with it. I admit that it is a bit weird. But if it makes them happy, that's fine with me, too.

 

There's also the matter with age and mental condition. I'm a 30 year old female with Asperger's Syndrome, and I still watch cartoons and play Pokémon. They're my most favorite things to do, and they keep me calm; I'm not all immature and underdeveloped as those trolls claim.