spoiler Starlight Glimmer had a point... (READ OP)

[ConcorDisparate 385]

 

 

Like war, crime, poverty, hunger

 

Equality won't make wars disappear. Once again, the episode showed something interesting : Complete rejection of those that don't 100% agree on equality or even think about something else. Destruction of any sentient thinking otherwise, by any means, even if that mean "killing" it by brainwashing.

Poverty will disappear because Affluence won't exist, but that does not mean people will live any better.

Hunger will probably grow even worse as science, and agriculture won't evolve and that the passionated people that should have taken care of it won't be able to.

 

 

 

(psychological) pain

 

To reach such equality, you must get rid of the minds. Merge them into one or erase them all. So, yeah, no psychological pain anymore. But it's not that simple.

Getting rid of opinions alone won't get the psychological pain away, which is mostly caused by the fact that we are mortal beings, limited in space, time, and understanding, dedicating our life to survival.

 

 

 

hatred

 

It will get the harted toward other humans away, but not toward other species.

 

Also, by getting rid of hatred, you get rid of the exact opposite, logically speaking.

You can't love someone you can't hate. There is no other way.

 

 

 

Like I said, it just depends on what you're willing to sacrifice.

 

That wasn't really the point, you determinated "giving up being special" (linked to "differing opinions") as what was to be sacrificed. Thus I was more focused on what would result from it rather than what was to be sacrificed, as it was defined earlier.

[dekutree64 713]

So far we don't really know whether the peaceful town was her ultimate goal, or only a scheme to gather cutie marks into her grid thing for some more selfish purpose.

 

But regardless, I do think some of her points were good, and the writers acknowledged it by having Fluttershy feel right at home, and Twilight puzzled why the map sent them there when the ponies seem happy with their choice of lifestyle. That was perhaps my favorite line in the episode, acknowledging that ponies/people should be free to live however they like, even if you yourself prefer something different. And on top of that, Starlight built her town out in the middle of nowhere, where they wouldn't bother anyone, and no one would bother them. Not an aggressively expanding empire (not yet, anyway).

 

For the first half of the episode, it really looks more like a refuge for ponies who have lived tortured lives, where mediocrity is a step up from pain. And that would be a good thing, if not for the practice of locking them in a room with brainwashing speeches, rather than letting them have their mark back and leave if they ever want to. Really, that's the only problem I see with it: the lack of choice (and using guilt and more subtle manipulations to keep people from leaving real cults is similarly bad)

 

EDIT: Actually, there is one more problem, that if you eliminate talents, then as a group you may be unable to maintain a decent standard of living for everyone. And that was sort of the case with the nasty muffins. If they were nutritionally good, then it may not be so bad. But malnourishment/poisoning due to lack of food production skill would lead to an untimely end of the town.

Edited April 6, 2015 by dekutree64

[Bendy 1,821]

I'm getting a lot of this trope in this thread: The Evils of Free Will.

 

I don't care if free will is chaotic, if Starlight Glimmer or someone somehow made a mind control chip and demanded I implant it into my head to rid myself of pain and free will, I would kill the person. Yes, I would kill them and try start a revolution with other like minded people that don't want to be slaves.

 

Because in all likelihood, the person that create such a device only wants to rule the world and let only a very small number of rich elite people still retain their free will.   

Edited April 30, 2015 by Bendy

[Sugar Pea 2,682]

But Twilight Sparkle had a good point herself on the situation, saying that their talents and cutie marks are what make them, themselves. Without their cutie marks, they weren't happy and were forced to be "happy" under someone's hoof.
Let's set aside the real world for a second. There's a thing ponies have that's called destiny, or a calling. Most ponies use their talents for good, some use them for bad.
Ponies can't really help it if their talents are better or worse than another pony's because it's their talents, what they do with their lives, their destiny. A pony's choice to act stuck up about their talents, is basically their choice. Starlight is using this logic and pressing it on everybody, as if everybody thinks that way about their special talents. As said, their talents make them individuals, unique, etc.
These ponies are basically miserable without their individuality, and were forced to be the same as everyone else and were unable to express themselves without being called out as "unequal". Taking someone's individuality under their foot is not considered equality. It's taking away their being, who they are as ponies.

I guess that taking away a pony's cutie mark also effects their personality, as seen in the second part of the premier and in Magical Mystery Cure, when they switched cutie marks thus switching their perspectives...WHICH could also prove that a pony is unhappy without their natural talent as a pony.

Now if we were to compare this to the real world, some people do indeed show off their talents, but what are they supposed to do? Talents are an expression, of yourself, of what you are capable of.
People do have different opinions, which have lead to conflicts. But most of the time, these conflicts can be avoided.
As quoted by Sugar Belle during the season premier:
"Different talents lead to different opinions which lead to bitterness and misery.", which could have also been quoted by Starlight Glimmer as a reminder of their cutie marks.

I always had a hard time following this quote because I never got how having a different talent, aka the vary thing that makes up a pony's daily life and personality, leads to different opinions. But I guess that's just Starlight's way of manipulation.

 

Edited April 6, 2015 by snickerdoodle

[Zoraxe 546]

I really do think Starlight Glimmer truly meant she was doing good with her philosophy and there isn't some ulterior motive like a desire for despotism or something. Even when she kept her own cutie mark, I think she saw that as a "I'm the only one I can trust with a cutie-mark because I know I won't abuse it" sort of hypocrisy.

 

This episode is kinda of a counter balance to all the episodes about individualism going amok, like with egotistical villains and snobbish ponies looking down on other ponies. Think about it like this, Starlight is a pony who thinks that nopony should be special, in a world where a lot of villains and jerks are all like 'I'm special, more special than all those others!"

[Fractured 2,684]

Equality won't make wars disappear. Once again, the episode showed something interesting : Complete rejection of those that don't 100% agree on equality or even think about something else. Destruction of any sentient thinking otherwise, by any means, even if that mean "killing" it by brainwashing.

That honestly depends on where you are in your planning. If everyone already agrees, then this isn't an issue. Of course, just by virtue the fact that we're having this conversation, that idea would never work, and it's Starlight Glimmers immoral actions I have issues with in the first place. I wouldn't ever unwillingly sacrifice the freedoms of others, even if it led to peace.

 

Poverty will disappear because Affluence won't exist, but that does not mean people will live any better.

 

Hunger will probably grow even worse as science, and agriculture won't evolve and that the passionated people that should have taken care of it won't be able to.

The first is a reasonable sacrifice. The second is a serious problem, since people rely on personal motivation to do most things. You could force them, but then you run back into the problem I already stated above; it's counterproductive to run peace through fear, and its not something I would ever do.

Also, by getting rid of hatred, you get rid of the exact opposite, logically speaking.

You can't love someone you can't hate. There is no other way.

I understand where this comes from, but there was definitely some form of love in Starlight Glimmer's town. I think what you mean is you wouldn't be able to understand it, or recognize its significance, but that doesn't mean its not there.

 

That wasn't really the point, you determinated "giving up being special" (linked to "differing opinions") as what was to be sacrificed. Thus I was more focused on what would result from it rather than what was to be sacrificed, as it was defined earlier.

It's a personal flaw; my ideas tend to jump around in position a lot. Sorry for the confusion.

edit: I should probably mention my opinion revolves around what I, personally, would give up. I may have stated this several times already, but I draw the line at sacrificing others for my goals, no matter how "right" my opinions may seem.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Corona de Adamas

[ConcorDisparate 385]

 

 

I understand where this comes from, but there was definitely some form of love in Starlight Glimmer's town. I think what you mean is you wouldn't be able to understand it, or recognize its significance, but that doesn't mean its not there.

 

I think this depends on the point of view.

In fact, if you don't feel happy, well, as happy as others think you might be, you are still feeling bad. You know what I mean ?

I'm pretty sure many people would be SO happy to live our occidental life, yet, we are not always happy with it, because our happiness is relative to the world we got used to. We look very happy, yet we are not.

But I think you got what I mean

 

However, we could think of something .

If you consider this equal living by comparison of an inequal living of your past life, you may feel happy without having to feel bad, as your happiness will be relative to your past life.

But it might require more time to think about it.

 

 

 

It's a personal flaw; my ideas tend to jump around in position a lot. Sorry for the confusion.

It's okay, it happens to everyone , I try to keep the track of the initial topic/questionning nowadays, it's easier to think constructively that way

[The Second Opinion 270]

As someone already pointed out, she's sort of taking the conflict of Rainbow Rocks - whether it's better for the people with greater talent to put themselves above everyone else - to the other extreme. (And no, I don't think it's just coincidence that there's no cannon FIM material in between these two stories.) 

 

I think both conflicts come down to the same thing: Nobody has the exact same level of talent. If only one level of talent is the "right" one, and it's not perfectly acceptable for someone to be better or worse than you without repercussion, than a LOT of people are going to be getting the short end of the stick. There's no harmony when almost everyone is forced to have conflicted feelings.

Edited April 6, 2015 by The Second Opinion

[Malinter 3,064]

Like war, crime, poverty, hunger, (psychological) pain, and hatred. Like I said, it just depends on what you're willing to sacrifice

 

These are fixable problems. If you force everyone to be the same and have no free will. they can't be fixed.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Malinter

[MLPFanatic34 3,234]

I can see and agree with some of what Starlight said, some think they have power over others just because they may excel at something someone else doesn't, but I do agree with what Twilight said, that cutie marks make the pony who they are and it's what makes them special and unique.

[#1FluttershyFan 206]

I get what you're saying and I think that she had the right idea of real life. However, she also had the right idea of trying to make people friends but her way of going about it was way wrong. I don't think that trying to take away people talents is the right way to settle disputes. If she really wants to help, she should be a psychologist or something but she shouldn't steal people's talents. A cutie mark is a representation of what someone is good at and what they love. She is taking away the ponies right to enjoy what they want to enjoy and that isn't right. Just like Sugar Belle was saying that she wanted to make something other than the awful muffins, she was being robbed of what she loved to do. I do think Starlight Glimmer was trying to help but stealing people's cutie marks is way too extreme.

[Shady23 175]

I agree with the OP on the good things Starlight was trying to do, but was that really her intentions? I feel like she had more personal gain from her plan rather than over see a small cult town. 

 

This episode reminded me why I loved Amon so much from Legend Korra.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

The sense of entitlement you mentioned has actually increased as society itself is becoming more and more authoritarian and cult like and I do not believe this is mere coincidence. This is a result of encouraging an entitlement culture where people are fragmented into groups and isms instead of being looked at as individuals. What does this have in common with Starlight Glimmers idealogy? A lot more than you might think actually. In Starlight Glimmers pony Jonestown ponies instead of being looked at as various groups were looked at as one sort of hive mind which also occurs quite ironically in the entitlement culture where it is ones lot in life to be "entitled" to certain things if you are a member of certain protected classes which leads to a sort of voluntary hive mind or what we would more commonly know of as a "circle jerk."

 

I don't quite follow. If these two situations are so similar, why do they yield opposite results? People in the entitlement culture think mainly of themselves and go through life expecting to get all the breaks, while Starlight's followers thought and acted collectively with no such expectations for themselves.

 

That's the whole problem. Many people in my society think far too highly of themselves. I see them every day, and rich or poor, it's just the same. Their whole world seems to consist of whatever commodity or favor they desire at the moment. They're determined to be heard, even aggressively, even when it's counterproductive or they have nothing relevant to say. They are so conditioned not to function as a group that it's almost impossible except in the wake of some huge disaster--terrorism, mass killings, a tornado. They throw "socialism" around as a pejorative label (when in fact many of them couldn't pass a middle school social studies test on what socialism really is). If a bunch of people dedicated to NOT getting along is a "hive mind," okay, I can kind of see that--but it lacks many of the beneficial characteristics and advantages of such, so they're screwing themselves even more.

 

The ponies of Nonameville, while having forgotten the benefits of individuality, live every day as if their town has just been hit by a tornado. They smile, they help each other out, they build houses for each other; they share unglamorous food, clothing, and housing and nopony complains. As Dekutree says, "mediocrity is a step up from pain." The community is an ongoing rebuilding project, mirroring Starlight's intention to rebuild pony society from the damage of the cutie mark system. Unfortunately, Starlight takes drastic measures to ensure that the project continues so that nopony ever leaves or achieves success, because any success not shared by the entire group at once is antithetical to her vision. She takes it all WAY too far, but when she's not going off the deep end, she's fostering a kind of unity among her followers that most of us will never experience. I'm not sure I would want that for myself, but it's hard to deny the appeal.

[ConcorDisparate 385]

I don't know, you seem to hate your society, and I respect this, but you should think about it in the long run, not in the very moment.

When you go out, people seem self-obsessed, stupid, not productive and disgusting, but is that all that our societes have to offer ?

Also, is this "equal" society of Starlight THAT good ?

 

You are actually comparing an abstract concept with a reality, and, of course, you will reject the reality and prefer the abstact concept. But his is biased as these are two different things.

If you want to compare them and draw conclusions on which one is better according to yourself, you must focus on judging them equally.

 

If you want to compare them, compare the present, our society as it is right now, to the equal society as it should be after thousands of years.

What about disabled people ? People that decide not to join this society ? What is someone is better than someone else at doing something ? Who will give orders ? Are billions of people supposed to meet up to take decisions ? What if there is a decision to make ? What if some people don't agree, let's say, to plant carots with a 1 meter distance between each plant instead of 0,99 meters ? Should we ban half the community ? Which community will be equal ? Should we forbid voting then ? Should we stop making decisions ? Should we all die right now so our community won't get corrupt and stay equal forever ?

 

 

Maybe some of these questions can be answered, but, like our society, some can't be answered. You can't have everything, unless you live in an abstract society, an utopia, which, by definition, is nonsense.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ConcorDisparate

[Zoraxe 546]

Guys think that maybe a lot of those ponies in Glimmer's town chose to be there because they have had negative experiences? How many Diamond Tiara's are there to mock ponies with "bad" cutie marks? This whole equal town may be reactionary to elitism that might be found in some other places, in which case Glimmer had good goals but went about it in the wrong way, and mistakenly believed that removing individuality was the best way to go.

[Allen 1,387]

Starlight Glimmer may had forgive ponies who give up their cutie marks in their suspicious equality manner, however in very rude way? My witness is I realize her problem in "The Cutie Map" episode.

 

I say "We don't make equality with each other like this! Your regular cutie mark represents who you are, and it's always you'll show me that you are friendly with their regular cutie mark not equal."