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Is it just me, or are the Royal sisters quite weak.


Unity
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Celestia and  Luna are actually very weak if you think about it.

The Sun and Moon could be controlled with just 6 ponies before they showed up and while this does not show a maximum amount if power it does to a minimum. Also, they have never really been able to defend themselves. They pretty much commited sudoku when tyrek showed up and Celestia couldn't even handle Nightmare Moon. They both were captured by queen Chrysalis. I think that they certainly were alot stringer back when they used the EoH but I think they are extremely weak now. Thoughts?

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The rock of stormy weather, (I just don't remember what it's called), can concentrate their magical powers making their job quite unnecessary. But that not really the point, in the show we never really saw Luna fight, it was always Celestia or Nightmare Moon, (Mooney didn't really hurt anyone when she returned from the moon, she primarily just defended herself from the main 6)

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It took five regular unicorns and StarSwirll the bearded to do it. All the unicorns except Starswirl LOST their magic after doing it a few time. Luna and Celestia can do it alone and are empowered by it. ( Journal of the 2 sisters. ) 

They were week against a very particular type of enemy or at least there was a great risk if he got their magic. It was a unique situation. That is like saying a judo guy sucks against a boxer when you put them both in a boxing match. Yea you took away the judo guys weapons and are calling him weak.

Chrysalis was a queen of her entire people and fully powered up on love. Never mind the idea of plot armor so that Twi and the five had to save the day. 

Celestia did not want to have to hurt her sister. Sorta hard to win a fight when you have no heart in it. 

In short, the argument is shoddy. 

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6 hours ago, Jedishy said:

It took five regular unicorns and StarSwirll the bearded to do it. All the unicorns except Starswirl LOST their magic after doing it a few time. Luna and Celestia can do it alone and are empowered by it. ( Journal of the 2 sisters. ) 

They were week against a very particular type of enemy or at least there was a great risk if he got their magic. It was a unique situation. That is like saying a judo guy sucks against a boxer when you put them both in a boxing match. Yea you took away the judo guys weapons and are calling him weak.

Chrysalis was a queen of her entire people and fully powered up on love. Never mind the idea of plot armor so that Twi and the five had to save the day. 

Celestia did not want to have to hurt her sister. Sorta hard to win a fight when you have no heart in it. 

In short, the argument is shoddy. 

I was asking an opinion not making an argument and I did not know that the others could lose their magic, so no argument can be shoddy.

And not sure if this is what you were thinking of but i was talking about when Queen Chrysalis stole literally all of the Mane 6 + the 2 princesses and replaced them.

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I don't know about Luna but I am at the belief that Celestia purposely don't deal with big events right away for 2 reasons. One... it tests Twilight... and two she already knows what's going to happen.

Do you remember when Luna Celestia Cadance and Twilight combined their powers? They had enough power to colectively overpower the rest of the magic in Equestria... including Discord.

There is also the thing Daybreaker said to Celestia in that she always holds back. I think Celestia is extremely powerful... but if she solved the big problem... then there is no show.

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Their duties raise the sun or moon. Working together to bring day and night, however Luna felt less valued to her role and this is what caused her to lash out, Celestia needed the element to defeat her sister.  and banish her to the moon.

Luna and Celestia had to use the elements again to defeat discord, without them they still were not powerful enough even together to defeat discord.

To me i find them weak flat and dull. They have guards to protect them the 6 are like guardians to the elements, seperated they are useless however when together they are a very strong force...

Celestia and Luna were once connected to the elements, that is how they were able to use the magic to defend the country from threat. however they lost the connection to the elements..

if the element were destroyed and the mane 6 no longer are connected to them, there is a possibility they loose connection to the elements

It would be nice to see their past lives with their parents. However HASBRO IS ditching MLP and going with G5

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I think the Royal Sisters are very powerful. I mean, just look at the magic Twilight had when they transferred their magic into her. They possess a huge amount of magical power. The sisters don't appear as strong because they seem to be holding back. (It was even hinted with Celestia)

However, on a sidenote, Celestia confirmed in the season 4 finale that even the sisters were not strong enough to stop Tirek as long as Discord was protecting him. So it does seem there are limits to the effectiveness of raw magical power.

I like to think unicorn/alicorn magic is powerful, but is bound by following the arcane rules of magic. While Discord's magic is chaotic and  makes its own rules when it's needed.

Being a strong magic user won't help you if your opponent can prevent you from using it in some way. (Tirek absorbing Discord's powers, Chrysalis' anti-magic throne, the princesses captured by the Changelings, Tempest taking out three princesses on her own, etc)

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Celestia and Luna are definitely not weak but they are not as powerful as some claim.
We now know that 6 Unicorns were able to move the sun, though this caused them to loose their magic over time. So one would think that Celestia would be stronger than 6 ponies right? Well not necessarily, since Celestia's cutie mark is the Sun this makes it easier for her to move the sun herself as its her special talent. This can be confirmed as when Starlight switch the sisters cutie marks Celestia remarked that the Moon was even easier to move than the sun showing that there is indeed a correlation between the sisters cutie marks and their ability to move the Sun and Moon. Thus the 6 unicorns vs Celestia feat is much harder to quantify.

However we know that Alicorns are more powerful than Unicorns as confirmed by Twilight, however we are never given an indication of how much stronger. Twilight with the power of 4 alicorns was able to contend with Tirek who had amassed a large amount of magic from many ponies + Discord. So does that mean that 4 Alicorns is equal to X number of ponies + Discord. Not really, since we know that Celestia + Luna were unable to defeat Discord and we know that regular ponies are able to match or even surpass Alicorns in power as seen with Starlight and Starswirl respectively.

If we knew how strong Twilight is compared to Celestia and Luna we would be able to get a better answer but so far all we can say is that Twilight is probably weaker than them but by how much we don't know.

However as Nightmare Moon and Daybreaker their powers seem quite potent if the episode and the Legends comic is too be believed.

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Just now, Tenebrae said:

Celestia and Luna are definitely not weak but they are not as powerful as some claim.
We now know that 6 Unicorns were able to move the sun, though this caused them to loose their magic over time. So one would think that Celestia would be stronger than 6 ponies right? Well not necessarily, since Celestia's cutie mark is the Sun this makes it easier for her to move the sun herself as its her special talent. This can be confirmed as when Starlight switch the sisters cutie marks Celestia remarked that the Moon was even easier to move than the sun showing that there is indeed a correlation between the sisters cutie marks and their ability to move the Sun and Moon. Thus the 6 unicorns vs Celestia feat is much harder to quantify.

However we know that Alicorns are more powerful than Unicorns as confirmed by Twilight, however we are never given an indication of how much stronger. Twilight with the power of 4 alicorns was able to contend with Tirek who had amassed a large amount of magic from many ponies + Discord. So does that mean that 4 Alicorns is equal to X number of ponies + Discord. Not really, since we know that Celestia + Luna were unable to defeat Discord and we know that regular ponies are able to match or even surpass Alicorns in power as seen with Starlight and Starswirl respectively.

If we knew how strong Twilight is compared to Celestia and Luna we would be able to get a better answer but so far all we can say is that Twilight is probably weaker than them but by how much we don't know.

However as Nightmare Moon and Daybreaker their powers seem quite potent if the episode and the Legends comic is too be believed.

Yeah, i agree.

Celestia and Luna's ability to move the Sun and Moon is not a measure of raw power but more so their power.

I also think that they do actually hold back because if they released the rest of their power they would do some serious serious uncontrollable damage, thus why Nightmare moon and Daybreaker are so strong, they don't care.

I also think strength in Equestria is limited by how strong you are as a Pony, not by your magical capabilities.

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10 hours ago, Unity said:

Yeah, i agree.

Celestia and Luna's ability to move the Sun and Moon is not a measure of raw power but more so their power.

I also think that they do actually hold back because if they released the rest of their power they would do some serious serious uncontrollable damage, thus why Nightmare moon and Daybreaker are so strong, they don't care.

I also think strength in Equestria is limited by how strong you are as a Pony, not by your magical capabilities.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that last sentence.
The way I see it, the more potent the ponie's magic, the more capable they are.

Regardless we have seen that even among normal ponies there are vast differences between their members.
Earth ponies: The average earth pony doesn't seem inherently physically stronger than a Pegasus or Unicorn, however we do have some individuals such as Applejack, Rockhoof and Maud pie who display extreme levels of physical strength.

Pegasus: The average Pegasus doesn't seem particularly fast, but we do have some such as Lightning Dust and the Wonderbolts who can go much faster and then there is Rainboom who can break the sound barrier.

Unicorn: The average Unicorn doesn't seem that powerful and according to Twilight can only learn a limited number of spells connected to their special talent. However there are some ponies whom have a cutie mark related to magic in some way such as Twilight, Starlight and Starswirl who can learn nearly any spell and are much more powerful.

Though to be fair these named ponies are more exceptions rather than the rule.

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57 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that last sentence.
The way I see it, the more potent the ponie's magic, the more capable they are.

Regardless we have seen that even among normal ponies there are vast differences between their members.
Earth ponies: The average earth pony doesn't seem inherently physically stronger than a Pegasus or Unicorn, however we do have some individuals such as Applejack, Rockhoof and Maud pie who display extreme levels of physical strength.

Pegasus: The average Pegasus doesn't seem particularly fast, but we do have some such as Lightning Dust and the Wonderbolts who can go much faster and then there is Rainboom who can break the sound barrier.

Unicorn: The average Unicorn doesn't seem that powerful and according to Twilight can only learn a limited number of spells connected to their special talent. However there are some ponies whom have a cutie mark related to magic in some way such as Twilight, Starlight and Starswirl who can learn nearly any spell and are much more powerful.

Though to be fair these named ponies are more exceptions rather than the rule.

I meant that it is mainly willpower and a few other traits.

So i think that if a unicorn wanted to become the most powerful mage in all of Equestria and they had good intentions and tried hard enough, their power would be as strong as that desire.

That works here on our earth but i think it would be more so with ponies.

So essentially the better the Pony the more the power. I think this ties into the elements of harmony quite well and this is the reason they are so powerful.

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On 8/13/2018 at 10:15 AM, Unity said:

I was asking an opinion not making an argument and I did not know that the others could lose their magic, so no argument can be shoddy.

And not sure if this is what you were thinking of but i was talking about when Queen Chrysalis stole literally all of the Mane 6 + the 2 princesses and replaced them.

*sigh* When you post something like your OP it is indeed an arguement 

Definition of argument

1a : the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing : argumentation ( Webster  ) 

Doing so when you lack information makes it shoddy 

Definition of shoddy

2a : inferior, imitative, or pretentious articles or matter ( Underlining mine and Webster  ) 

 

So you are referring to kidnap? Have you ever tried to fight an ambush from a trusted person? Or even just a general ambush from a group that is camouflaged? Fighting out of ambush takes particular training and is an iffy situation at best even for very skilled fighters. Basically it's a bleh concept to try to say that someone ambushing you makes you weak. 

I mean really it took 6 unicorns and the most powerful unicorn ever known to do what they do solo. That means they are at least 5 to 6 times more powerful than the most powerful person ever known in raw potential. 

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40 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

*sigh* When you post something like your OP it is indeed an arguement 

Definition of argument

1a : the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing : argumentation ( Webster  ) 

Doing so when you lack information makes it shoddy 

Definition of shoddy

2a : inferior, imitative, or pretentious articles or matter ( Underlining mine and Webster  ) 

 

So you are referring to kidnap? Have you ever tried to fight an ambush from a trusted person? Or even just a general ambush from a group that is camouflaged? Fighting out of ambush takes particular training and is an iffy situation at best even for very skilled fighters. Basically it's a bleh concept to try to say that someone ambushing you makes you weak. 

I mean really it took 6 unicorns and the most powerful unicorn ever known to do what they do solo. That means they are at least 5 to 6 times more powerful than the most powerful person ever known in raw potential. 

If you would have read up you(in the topic) would have seen i had come to a conclusion on the subject.

and also, we know that while it doesn't help my point, Celestia should not be able to be overpowered by enemies as we see her use a certain aura like spell knocking away close attackers, we saw her use this on King Sombra's army so Changelings shouldn't be able to overpower her. But all of this is irrelevant because once again i sorted this out.

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Just now, Unity said:

and also, we know that while it doesn't help my point, Celestia should not be able to be overpowered by enemies as we see her use a certain aura like spell knocking away close attackers, we saw her use this on King Sombra's army so Changelings shouldn't be able to overpower her. But all of this is irrelevant because once again i sorted this out.

She did that when she SAW an attack coming. Can you prove she is omniscient or can see all around her at all times? If not she is no more capable then you or I of stopping a cudgel to the back of the head or dart to the neck. She can stop most things she can see coming or has a reason to activate her shield. But if she does not see it and is hit unexpectedly that shield means nothing. Im sorry but the concepts do not wash unless there is a claim that she can see/know all or has some defensive magic that tells her when attacks about to happen. But the example of walking into a WAR and seeing yourself surrounded by foes leaping your way does not translate to stopping an ambush you do not expect or see coming. 

If your attacker can be a rock or some other bit of scenery or animal one second and thawp you over the dome the next well I dont care who you are you will take a nap and wake up captured. 

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I actually have my own theory about this.  Remember, Celestia is over a thousand moons old, as is Luna, who spent a thousand moons on the moon.

 

My thoughts are in order to push Luna onto the moon, much of her alicorn powers besides her natural talent was stripped away since this was not an act of friendship, there would have been a price to pay. 

 

Celestia then spent a thousand moons raising the sun and moon both, changing her hair from the colors of a sunrise to the colors we know today.  

 

The sun was easy.  The moon was another story.  It didn't wish to yield to her, and took much of her magic.  With the strain of that every day and night, stress of having to rule alone, and good old fasioned time, Celestia lost her alicorn ability bit by bit.

 

They are basically heros past their prime.  The villians know them as all powerful (thus Chyristalys's surprise when she defeated Celestia), but in truth, they only have a fraction of the power they once did.

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1 minute ago, Janicethelight said:

I actually have my own theory about this.  Remember, Celestia is over a thousand moons old, as is Luna, who spent a thousand moons on the moon.

 

My thoughts are in order to push Luna onto the moon, much of her alicorn powers besides her natural talent was stripped away since this was not an act of friendship, there would have been a price to pay. 

 

Celestia then spent a thousand moons raising the sun and moon both, changing her hair from the colors of a sunrise to the colors we know today.  

 

The sun was easy.  The moon was another story.  It didn't wish to yield to her, and took much of her magic.  With the strain of that every day and night, stress of having to rule alone, and good old fasioned time, Celestia lost her alicorn ability bit by bit.

 

They are basically heros past their prime.  The villians know them as all powerful (thus Chyristalys's surprise when she defeated Celestia), but in truth, they only have a fraction of the power they once did.

There is no basis for Alicorn powers being tied to friendship at all. But it could be why the elements of harmony chose others after the banishment as we see that they are tied to healing and friendship as per the end of season 7. 

Raising the sun empowers her and makes her stronger. So any drain from the moon would have been negated. 

She has shown time and again to be a Titan when she needs to be. Daybreaker proves what she can do if she fails to hold back. She simply is wise enough to only do what she must and let others do things to develop when she can. 

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5 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

There is no basis for Alicorn powers being tied to friendship at all. But it could be why the elements of harmony chose others after the banishment as we see that they are tied to healing and friendship as per the end of season 7. 

Raising the sun empowers her and makes her stronger. So any drain from the moon would have been negated. 

She has shown time and again to be a Titan when she needs to be. Daybreaker proves what she can do if she fails to hold back. She simply is wise enough to only do what she must and let others do things to develop when she can. 

I meant the elements of harmony, seeing as Starlight warned of not using the elements of harmony unless it is for friendship.  I mean, for Discord, it turns him to stine, but he can still hear everything, so i figured not friendship problems have a drawback to the elements of harmony used.  

 

I suppose that may be true as well.  Would the stress with time help explaun still?

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Just now, Janicethelight said:

I suppose that may be true as well.  Would the stress with time help explaun still?

Possible. I mean " A Royal Problem " showed how draining their jobs are. So they could very well be tired and thus not at 100% all the time. Or more likely because of the expansions of their duties as Equestria developed, expanded and populated they are stretched thin and thus MUST let others do a lot of lifting or thing will fall through the cracks and emergencies cant be handled. 

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3 hours ago, Unity said:

I meant that it is mainly willpower and a few other traits.

So i think that if a unicorn wanted to become the most powerful mage in all of Equestria and they had good intentions and tried hard enough, their power would be as strong as that desire.

That works here on our earth but i think it would be more so with ponies.

So essentially the better the Pony the more the power. I think this ties into the elements of harmony quite well and this is the reason they are so powerful.

Well based on what Twilight said, not just any unicorn could become powerful is they wanted as they would be restricted by their cutie mark and natural talent (presumably). Also Stygian wasn't able to become strong on his own, that's why he seeked to replicate the equipement of the Pillars.

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1 hour ago, Jedishy said:

There is no basis for Alicorn powers being tied to friendship at all. But it could be why the elements of harmony chose others after the banishment as we see that they are tied to healing and friendship as per the end of season 7. 

Raising the sun empowers her and makes her stronger. So any drain from the moon would have been negated. 

She has shown time and again to be a Titan when she needs to be. Daybreaker proves what she can do if she fails to hold back. She simply is wise enough to only do what she must and let others do things to develop when she can. 

There is no canon basis that the sun empowers her. The Journal of the two sisters has had several elements retconned to the point where it can't be considered canon any longer.

The Moon just doesn't seem to drain magic like the sun does. Celestia herself (when using Luna's cutie mark) states that the Moon is easier to move than the sun.

Shown time and again? When? And besides Daybreaker isn't really Celestia, its an alter ego pyromaniac.

2 hours ago, Jedishy said:

*. 

I mean really it took 6 unicorns and the most powerful unicorn ever known to do what they do solo. That means they are at least 5 to 6 times more powerful than the most powerful person ever known in raw potential. 

We can't use Celestia and Luna's feat of moving the Sun and the Moon since their respective Cutie Marks makes it much easier for either of them to accomplish this. As such this feat is unquantifiable and no longer as impressive.

 

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Just now, Tenebrae said:

There is no canon basis that the sun empowers her. The Journal of the two sisters has had several elements retconned to the point where it can't be considered canon any longer.

The Moon just doesn't seem to drain magic like the sun does. Celestia herself (when using Luna's cutie mark) states that the Moon is easier to move than the sun.

Shown time and again? When? And besides Daybreaker isn't really Celestia, its an alter ego pyromani

The journal of the two sisters is approved by Hasbro so unless its contradicted in the show its just as fine a source as any. 

The moon might be easier to move for her as its smaller but that has little to do with my post and it point that doing what they are meant to do empowers them rather then drains them like other ponies. 

She has shown she can shut down Twilight in full on eye glow titan mode. She has put to bed most major villains that Twi takes on and further feats like holding back the storms of the Crystal Empire with Luna or taking back the crystal heart from a dragon of various feats in the comics that I have yet to read. Oh and DayBreaker like Nightmare moon is exactly what she could be if she went all out. Those are the dark sides of the sisters with no restraint. 

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18 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

The journal of the two sisters is approved by Hasbro so unless its contradicted in the show its just as fine a source as any. 

The moon might be easier to move for her as its smaller but that has little to do with my post and it point that doing what they are meant to do empowers them rather then drains them like other ponies. 

She has shown she can shut down Twilight in full on eye glow titan mode. She has put to bed most major villains that Twi takes on and further feats like holding back the storms of the Crystal Empire with Luna or taking back the crystal heart from a dragon of various feats in the comics that I have yet to read. Oh and DayBreaker like Nightmare moon is exactly what she could be if she went all out. Those are the dark sides of the sisters with no restraint. 

Haven't read The Journal of The Two Sisters, but from what i've heard, the show has actively contradicted it. Multiple times as a matter of fact.

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5 minutes ago, ggg-2 said:

Haven't read The Journal of The Two Sisters, but from what i've heard, the show has actively contradicted it. Multiple times as a matter of fact.

That is why I said unless the show contradicts it. Just like anything else writers can contradict old material. But unless it is directly contradicted its a fine source. 

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1 hour ago, Jedishy said:

The journal of the two sisters is approved by Hasbro so unless its contradicted in the show its just as fine a source as any. 

The moon might be easier to move for her as its smaller but that has little to do with my post and it point that doing what they are meant to do empowers them rather then drains them like other ponies. 

She has shown she can shut down Twilight in full on eye glow titan mode. She has put to bed most major villains that Twi takes on and further feats like holding back the storms of the Crystal Empire with Luna or taking back the crystal heart from a dragon of various feats in the comics that I have yet to read. Oh and DayBreaker like Nightmare moon is exactly what she could be if she went all out. Those are the dark sides of the sisters with no restraint. 

The Journal has been contradicted multiple times, namely the whole part of Starswirl and the Tree of Harmony has been completely changed. That to me is enough to no longer consider it canon.

Comics are secondary canon at best and they are often contradicted or they exaggerate things or make characters act differently then they do in the show, that's why I only use the show + films when discussing topics. Comics should only be used to re-enforce a point already made in the show.

When has she sut down Twilight? I don't remember that in the show.
Celestia defeated Sombra with the aid of her sister, so she didn't do it alone. Its never stated how Tirek was defeated the first time. She never defeats Nightmare Moon or Discord. So no, she doesn't really have a good tract record.

Yes Daybreaker is her full power, but she access that full power nilly willy, nor would she want to as it turns her insane.

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