Why there NEEDS to be a Changelings-aren't-all-bad episode.

[Magic Man 221]

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the "Always Chaotic Evil" trope and how it is often applied to the Changelings in the show. It is basically how every member of an enemy race is pure evil. There is not a single good member of the race, every single of them is bad to the bone and needs to be destroyed.

 

I don't like this trope. I didn't like it in the past and I don't like it now. Why? Well, that's what I'm about to get into and why there needs to be another Changeling episode to defy it.

 

So where did we see the "always chaotic evil" trope? Well, we've seen it in Star Wars, Clone Wars, Dungeons and Dragons, Lord of the Rings, most of the famous films, literature and games have entire species who are irredemably evil. But does that have a place with MLP, with the Changelings especially? Are they a world that like Star Wars, Clone Wars especially, where there is a good species and bad species who must be defeated?

 

In my opinion? No.

 

You see, this is what so many Bronies forget: My Little Pony is not like Star Wars, or Dungeons and Dragons or Lord of the Rings, or whatever. We try to Tolkienize it and the like, trying to build up the world, with "good nations" and "bad nations" and sometimes create a major theme of good against evil, often with the ponies and Changelings, which is what we have fanfictions for. But if we are talking Canon, proper Canon, the show is a slice-of-life one at the core, giving these ponies human-like personalities and see how they develop and grow, and not to forget, the whole schtick on FRIENDSHIP. It isn't a show that puts focuses on the conflict of good and evil, hey if you want that, watch Clone Wars.

 

With My little pony, they have pretty much shown that good and bad is possible in anyone, transcending species or someone's past. Keep and Flutter On solidified this, because it showed that Discord, no matter what he has done, has good in him. I mean, before that episode, you and I would have been thinking he could NEVER be redeemed, but now that's what we still have AU fanfictions for. So if he can be good, why can't an entire species like the Changelings? And let's not forget Sombra, an evil member of the supposed cute, cuddly, innocent species of the ponies. So therefore, good is not something inherent in pony kind. Having there be "always chaotic evil" species just doesn't fit with the world and values of the MLP universe, and if the writers did go down that route, I would see it as a betrayal of its values and teachings.

 

In fact, this is exactly why Dragon Quest was such a bad episode. Yes, you can make the argument that these dragons were teenage jerks and we didn't get to see any adults, but the implication is that, "Don't worry Spike, forget about your evil race, as long as you are being raised by the good, can-do-no-wrong race, you'll be just fine". Of course, that is not the intended message, but that is how it can easily come across as.

 

And to go back to Star Wars and D&D, in those worlds, yes, there are evil species, but two things: 1) that's part of the established rules of those universes, where good vs evil is a major theme, which MLP as I've gone into above isn't. 2) They are aimed at an older audience, who by then have been taught that there is good and bad in all types of people in real life, regardless of race. MLP is a show, no matter how much an adult fanbase it has, it still aimed at young children, who are still being taught their values. If we have an "always chaotic evil" species in a show like MLP, then it can have serious Unfortunate Implications for that young audience watching it and would in the long run be more damaging than helpful; that in the real world, certain nationalities an ethnic groups are all bad and are all out to get you and your loved ones. Sound familiar? We are living in a world that is increasingly intolerant and unaccepting of those who are different. We need MORE shows like MLP:FiM to teach compassion, tolerance and acceptance of those that are different and that because certain members of a group of people do bad things, that doesn't mean all of them are bad. Because for the upteenth, this show isn't SW, or Harry Potter, something that a lot of Bronies are forgetting. They see the show sometimes for what they make instead of what it really is.

 

In fact, MLP has dealt with this before in the early generations. In the arc with Grogar, with his servant species, the Troggals, many were shown to hate serving him and helped the ponies defeat Grogar. In the end, they came to live in Ponyland (Equestria). That is something I would be more than happy to see happen in MLP:FiM with the Changelings.

 

Also, just on a sidenote, I was actually surprised by the move made around this by the new Thundercats show. It didn't just show Cats=good and lizard=bad, it showed in the first episodes almost as the cats being the REAL ones in the wrong because of their greed and belief in their own superiority, whilst the lizards are given a much more sympathetic look and shown as individuals, with one of them helping Lion-O and his brother escape. So props to the new Thundercats for that.

 

Look, I personally don't know how real evil as a force is, that's depends on you and your spiritual and religious view. But even if it does exist in these fictional worlds, it all really depends on the kind of world, its rules and values and its intended audience whether there is an evil race. For me, I can't stand the trope, because of how much I believe in individualism and how we choose our own destinies and the kind of implications the trope gives, however unintentional. And in a show like MLP, I don't think it has a place. I just think it's a trope that should eventually fade away, especially in this modern world.

 

Bottom line, this is all my opinion, and probably nothing more: does evil exist? Maybe, probably. But for me, it transcends your species and that it can exist in any kind of creature, just as much as good. This is why we need a Changeling episode regarding all this, if not just to reconfirm the messages of Keep Calm and Flutter On.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Magic Man

[Orablanco Account 3,706]

1. The Thundercats reboot was awesome and I was also very much a fan of how they treated the relationship between the Cats and the other races.

 

2. It's funny how you mention Harry Potter, because as much as I love that series, I have always hated how Slytherin house was written. Rowling was building up the idea that Slytherin house did not automatically mean evil and that the good guys were guilty of prejudice as well. But in the end, it just ended up with Slytherin house being a bunch of cowardly assholes who get locked up in the dungeon so they don't mess up the final battle.

 

Hopefully, he writers emulate Dracco Malfoy's character arc (generic bully character who's revealed to be more complex and sympathetic than we thought) for Trixie or Gilda or whatever. That'd be nice.

 

3. I never thought of the Changelings turning good as fitting with the themes of the series, but it totally does.

 

But if they do go this route in any form, they should keep Chrysalis bad. Make her sympathetic, maybe, but she's cooler when she's evil.

[Pony Of The Month 534]

I've always wondered if the changelings even have a mind of their own. Until I see changelings who don't look like clones, my headcanon will be that they all came from the mirror pool. 

 

Maybe that's why their all evil. They don't have free will. I guess that wouldn't make the trope any better though....

[Jammo 986]

Actually a Clone Wars episode had Republic members go undercover and live in a separatist controlled planet where the people idolize Count Dooku and love him for his proactiveness and his followers are normal people not one-dimensionally evil. But yeah Most Star Wars focuses on the good vs evil fight.

 

I don't agree with the good changeling thing. They are pretty much a hive mind and they are evil because Chrysalis is evil (I know that's debatable but her methods are cruel). If a changeling hive was led by a benevolent leader, the minions would be kind. If They have good changelings at any point, they should be led by a different Changeling queen.

 

However the comics do show that Changelings in Chrysalis ranks have opinions so I could be wrong. My guess is if her changelings were to become openly outspoken about her rule, they wouldn't be around long enough to make any real impact in the hive.

[Magic Man 221]

I don't agree with the good changeling thing. They are pretty much a hive mind and they are evil because Chrysalis is evil (I know that's debatable but her methods are cruel). If a changeling hive was led by a benevolent leader, the minions would be kind. If They have good changelings at any point, they should be led by a different Changeling queen.

 

However the comics do show that Changelings in Chrysalis ranks have opinions so I could be wrong. My guess is if her changelings were to become openly outspoken about her rule, they wouldn't be around long enough to make any real impact in the hive.

 

I don't agree with the whole HIVE thing, there's nothing to give it canon backing. To me that takes away the ability to show them as individuals, which they clearly are. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions... until canon comes along and dashes us.

[Tall_But_Short_37 233]

Everyone can be friends, even if they do feast and live off of your friendship!

 

But joking aside, I do agree with your points. It's a perspective I hadn't thought of yet for the Changelings.

 

Also, to add something I just thought of... The thing that really goes against the central ideas of MLP:FiM is that they used friendship as a WEAPON to defeat the Changelings. Against Luna, it just removed the evil in her. Against Chrysalis, it just blew her and her followers away to who knows where. Friendship shouldn't be used to cause pain like that.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Tall_But_Short_37

[dreaper 136]

I understand where you're coming from, and I for once I would love an episode that show us that the other species are not inherently evil and that ponies are not all that good as we thought they are. We need a non-pony species to be redeemed, if they did it with Discord, we should give an entire species the same chance as well.

 

BUT... I think choosing the Changelings as the species to be redeemed is not the way to go.

 

Why, because I think there is another species that needs that kind of treatment more badly than the Changelings; a species that, if redeemed, will help a main character that desperately needs more development and growth. 

 

Of course I'm talking about Dragons and Spike. Why? Because a Spike is a dragon that lives among ponies, he maybe is the only one in this situation, all he knows about his own species is how evil they are. I think having an episode that showcases Dragons in a positive way and Ponies in a negative one will put a lot of things in perspective, Spike will discover that there is good in being a dragon and the Mane 6 will learn that their own species are not saints, plus Spike could get a dragon mentor, an old master that will teach all the stuff he needs about dragons. Bottom line, Spike is still a baby dragon, it doesn't matter that at the end of Dragon Quest he decides to live as a pony, he will eventually grow up, and he will face new dragon related issues, and without a proper role model to help him to deal with his own nature... Spike is doomed.

Edited March 28, 2013 by dreaper

[Orablanco Account 3,706]

Of course I'm talking about Dragons and Spike. Why? Because a Spike is a dragon that lives among ponies, he maybe is the only one in this situation, all he knows about his own species is how evil they are. I think having an episode that showcases Dragons in a positive way and Ponies in a negative one will put a lot of things in perspective, Spike will discover that there is good in being a dragon and the Mane 6 will learn that their own species are not saints, plus Spike could get a dragon mentor, an old master that will teach all the stuff he needs about dragons. Bottom line, Spike is still a baby dragon, it doesn't matter that at the end of Dragon Quest he decides to live as a pony, he will eventually grow up, and he will face new dragon related issues, and without a proper role model to help him to deal with his own nature... Spike is doomed.

As much as I want there to be a "Changelings maybe not so inherently evil", Yes to this.

 

All my yes.

 

Whether people like him or not, Spike is one of the most inherently interesting characters on the show: a seemingly immortal orphan raised by mortal beings of another species who taught him a morality that clashes with his innate amoral tendencies, creating identity issues. They were lucky that Rarity had a speech prepared to sooth his dragon-ness in SOME, but it's only a matter of time before the problem arises again. An exploration of his mysterious species would only make a better character, and dragons are awesome anyway.

[Veylon 255]

 

Against Chrysalis, it just blew her and her followers away to who knows where. Friendship shouldn't be used to cause pain like that.

Technically, it was love they used to inflict injury upon the Changelings. Completely different.

 

Also, I think that "proving" that Changelings can be good runs the risk of producing an episode where one good Changeling (often an outcast) is found which only confirms the idea that Chaotic Evil is indeed the default alignment of the Changeling race.

 

Personally, I'd be happy with an explanation of the Changelings' actions from their point of view. At some point it must have seemed like a good idea to storm Canterlot en masse. I mean, they did it, after all. We can't very well absolve them of all blame. Otherwise, we're taking away the very individuality that we're trying to give them. To be a person is to be responsible for one's actions.

 

If there's going to be a redemption story, it should be done with the understanding that not all Changelings are in need of a redemption story. Some are good and some aren't, and the focus should be on those who aren't, but facing enough doubts to be swayed.

[Totally Ducklett 181]

I have continiously thought about this. I think, the changelings are going to become somewhat good. In fact, I think in season 4 they're going to all join forces to defeat a new evil villian that is more powerful than any other we've seen so far. That's just me.

[GC13 17]

Changelings are a predatory species that must prey on sapients; reasonably, they're going to be born with an innate disregard for the happiness of any kind of creature they feed off of. Good Changelings should be at least as rare as bad ponies: ponies just seem to be generally nice by nature, but there's no particular reason for this to be (at least not as strong as "if a Changeling is repulsed by the act of feeding it will at best become frail and at worst starve to death").

 

If the Changelings, as a species, were to feed ethically, they would need to be tightly integrated with a host society that was comfortable with the idea of offering up its citizens' emotions to a parasitic species. I can easily imagine, in a realistic setting, a Changeling ruler attempting to do this diplomatically. I can also imagine, in that same realistic setting, the Changelings being told to go to Tartarus. That leaves conquest if they want to feed on any real scale at all.

 

So on one level you can say yeah, they just wanted to take over Equestria because they need to find hosts somewhere, no malice in mind. But you're gonna have a hard time saying that the Changelings would be particularly nice chaps to be around even in a world that accepted and accommodated their feeding habits.

[Sunny Fox 5,934]

Technically, it was love they used to inflict injury upon the Changelings. Completely different.

Technically, it was Shining Armor's shield spell that injured them. The love from Cadance just gave him the strength needed to cast it. 

 

As for the changelings, they are the pony equivalent of White Court Vampires from the Dresden Files series, which are almost without exception evil emotion drainers that will feed on you until you die. So while there may perhaps be one or two who are "good" the race as a whole is by definition evil to the ponies. (Those who haven't read the Dresden Files, perhaps the Drow are a more workable example... the race as a whole is definitely evil, but that doesn't stop individuals from turning their backs on that society and becoming good guys.)

 

Also, the hive mind seems less likely when you consider that Queen Chrysalis actually talks out loud when she tells them to "Go! Feed!" And furthermore, fanfiction always seems to assume that Chrysalis is the mother of all the changelings, no doubt prompted by the resemblance of the race to insects. All she ever called them was "my minions" or "my subjects". There is no real evidence that they are all her children at all.

[Orablanco Account 3,706]

If the Changelings, as a species, were to feed ethically, they would need to be tightly integrated with a host society that was comfortable with the idea of offering up its citizens' emotions to a parasitic species. I can easily imagine, in a realistic setting, a Changeling ruler attempting to do this diplomatically.

My head canon is that if they wanted to, changelings could survive off the same amount of love everypony else does. They just don't know that because Chrysalis has led them to believe that love is simply food that they've been forced to steal from other races.

 

Remember that this is MLP, where friendship is a physical energy that can defeat evil. It's not too much a stretch to assume that the changelings are the way they are because love is an actual biological necessity that their perpetual existence doesn't provide. And Chrysalis won't let them live any other way. In her own words (from the comic), love is simply a thing she can manipulate and use to get what she wants. She can't see it as anything more

 

I'm sure that if it was revealed that their queen was straight up evil, the majority would still be willing to follow her rule. But who knows, there might be some good ones out there...

[Unicycolt 0]

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was some kind of joke or satire against the redemption of Discord, but after reading all of your points, I see that this is actually very true. Insisting that an entire race is inherently evil isn't exactly fair, besides the fact that the changelings were just doing what they needed to do to survive. We should see them again, but this time in a more positive light. They don't deserve to be orcified.

[Scythe 39]

 

With My little pony, they have pretty much shown that good and bad is possible in anyone, transcending species or someone's past. Keep and Flutter On solidified this, because it showed that Discord, no matter what he has done, has good in him. I mean, before that episode, you and I would have been thinking he could NEVER be redeemed, but now that's what we still have AU fanfictions for. So if he can be good, why can't an entire species like the Changelings? And let's not forget Sombra, an evil member of the supposed cute, cuddly, innocent species of the ponies. So therefore, good is not something inherent in pony kind. Having there be "always chaotic evil" species just doesn't fit with the world and values of the MLP universe, and if the writers did go down that route, I would see it as a betrayal of its values and teachings.

...

Bottom line, this is all my opinion, and probably nothing more: does evil exist? Maybe, probably. But for me, it transcends your species and that it can exist in any kind of creature, just as much as good. This is why we need a Changeling episode regarding all this, if not just to reconfirm the messages of Keep Calm and Flutter On.

I never really thought about how the Changelings being left as an evil race went against the values of MLP. Hmm.

 

I want to see an episode that shows the good sides of Changelings. Actually, I want a future Changeling episode, anyway, even if the comics featured them (as chaotic evil).

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

I read a fantastic fanfiction that was about the redemption of Chrysalis, showing her as a desperate ruler who had a starving race to feed, rather than as one who was irrevokebly evil. Linked below if you'd like to read it.

 

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/52726/The-Retribution-of-Chrysalis

[Magic Man 221]

I read a fantastic fanfiction that was about the redemption of Chrysalis, showing her as a desperate ruler who had a starving race to feed, rather than as one who was irrevokebly evil. Linked below if you'd like to read it.

 

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/52726/The-Retribution-of-Chrysalis

 

Sorry, but I'm not into the "Chrysalis and the Changelings are secretly good and innocent and the ponies are bad". The Changeling forces were the aggressors, but what I'm getting at is just that not all of them are bad, is all. 

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

It's not about that at all; more about both races learning to accept each other and work together, actually.

 

In any case, the whole changeling thing is to my mind, like the whole "history is written by the winners" thing. For example, the bombing of Dresden in the second world war would have been treated as a war crime had Germany won, but it was seen as justified cuz the RAF were doing the bombing. Just like the fact that blasting the changelings out of Canterlot would be seen to the suriving changelings (just how many would have survived that, anyway?) as being a terrible crime cuz, after all, the changelings didn't actually KILL anypony.

[Scootalove 10,684]

I don't think that would work since, the Changelings are basically evil. But, unless Chrysalis tried to prove to everybody that she wasn't evil from the start. I guess that could work maybe.

[GC13 17]

Just like the fact that blasting the changelings out of Canterlot would be seen to the suriving changelings (just how many would have survived that, anyway?) as being a terrible crime cuz, after all, the changelings didn't actually KILL anypony.

 

Actually, considering the falls ponies have withstood without injury, I doubt the Changelings would have been much more than "annoyed" by being flung out of Canterlot. Never mind that each and every Changeling there was an invading soldier, and so even if they were hurt then nobody can complain.

 

The comic portrays it much as I would expect, though: Changelings hit dirt, and immediately start grousing at having failed in their conquest (i.e. no wounds to tend to).

Edited March 29, 2013 by GC13

[Magic Man 221]

I understand where you're coming from, and I for once I would love an episode that show us that the other species are not inherently evil and that ponies are not all that good as we thought they are. We need a non-pony species to be redeemed, if they did it with Discord, we should give an entire species the same chance as well.

 

BUT... I think choosing the Changelings as the species to be redeemed is not the way to go.

 

Why, because I think there is another species that needs that kind of treatment more badly than the Changelings; a species that, if redeemed, will help a main character that desperately needs more development and growth. 

 

Of course I'm talking about Dragons and Spike. Why? Because a Spike is a dragon that lives among ponies, he maybe is the only one in this situation, all he knows about his own species is how evil they are. I think having an episode that showcases Dragons in a positive way and Ponies in a negative one will put a lot of things in perspective, Spike will discover that there is good in being a dragon and the Mane 6 will learn that their own species are not saints, plus Spike could get a dragon mentor, an old master that will teach all the stuff he needs about dragons. Bottom line, Spike is still a baby dragon, it doesn't matter that at the end of Dragon Quest he decides to live as a pony, he will eventually grow up, and he will face new dragon related issues, and without a proper role model to help him to deal with his own nature... Spike is doomed.

 

 

As much as I want there to be a "Changelings maybe not so inherently evil", Yes to this.

 

All my yes.

 

Whether people like him or not, Spike is one of the most inherently interesting characters on the show: a seemingly immortal orphan raised by mortal beings of another species who taught him a morality that clashes with his innate amoral tendencies, creating identity issues. They were lucky that Rarity had a speech prepared to sooth his dragon-ness in SOME, but it's only a matter of time before the problem arises again. An exploration of his mysterious species would only make a better character, and dragons are awesome anyway

 

You make some very good points here and I can definitely agree about the need for it. It's just that for me, I see the Changelings as needing it more because of how they have so far been set up as being actually Evil, whilst the dragons are more set up as being savage, brutish and greedy. I mean, there is a distinctive difference between the two species in this regard. But yes, absolutely, I would like to see more good dragons outside of Spike.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Magic Man

[pinkiefan1287 610]

The problem I have with the Changelings being good is the fact that they need to eat love to keep living. So if love is their food, how long have they been doing this for? How many other creators have they wiped out? So it's hard to believe that one can just become good one day, after many years of doing this. They seem to be a more dangers then a parasprite.

 

Now I do believe that they can do an episode where not everything is bad. It's just the changelings don't seem like the right creator to use. I'm  not sure who it should be. Dragons are an alright idea, but it is shown that the older ones can be reasoned with, Once you show them who's boss. 

[Phoenix237 353]

Well I heard this argument before, but this takes the cake

Yes I do see an episode where a changeling becomes good, or several of them in fact.

It would go along with the show morals that not everyone in a group that seems bad is actually evil (made the lesson sorta).

Plus it would develope the changelins a lot.

 

The problem I have with the Changelings being good is the fact that they need to eat love to keep living. So if love is their food, how long have they been doing this for? How many other creators have they wiped out? So it's hard to believe that one can just become good one day, after many years of doing this. They seem to be a more dangers then a parasprite.

 

Now I do believe that they can do an episode where not everything is bad. It's just the changelings don't seem like the right creator to use. I'm not sure who it should be. Dragons are an alright idea, but it is shown that the older ones can be reasoned with, Once you show them who's boss.

Well you have a point

However (and I using this as a reference) in a Batman/ Superman comc where they faught vampires and Werewolves (don't ask) there where two of each species that where different. They didn't succumb to the hunger as easily as the others did and they found other methods that sustained them without resorting to feeding on others. These two helped Superman and Batman to defeat the others.

So takin this as a reference can't say a changeling or two find another form of feeding that doesn't require feeding on something?

[pinkiefan1287 610]

 

Well you have a point However (and I using this as a reference) in a Batman/ Superman comc where they faught vampires and Werewolves (don't ask) there where two of each species that where different. They didn't succumb to the hunger as easily as the others did and they found other methods that sustained them without resorting to feeding on others. These two helped Superman and Batman to defeat the others. So takin this as a reference can't say a changeling or two find another form of feeding that doesn't require feeding on something?

 

You bring up kinda a good point. But to what it seems these vampires and Werewolves are intelligent and can reason with others. Now the Changelings however don't seem like a creator with great intelligences and we also have to remember this is a tribe.

 

This remands me of a show called, The Ricky Gervais Show and they talked to this guy named Karl Pilkington about different things. They talked to him about a tribe in some part of the world, that still believes in cannibalism. Karl asked could one go one day "You know I'm sick of this. I'm leaving for the city."They explained that this is just how they were raised and they just wouldn't think that way. Now that is how I see them. That one can't just go one day, "I'm sick of this. I out." They have been raised in this kinda way.

 

The other thing is Magicman believes that the changelings have families and kinda live the same life as a ponies. But the problem next is they all look alike. There is not one that is different from one another. They kinda seem like drones to me. There kinda like Rita's Puttie Patrol from Power Rangers. 

 

Still maybe there is a chance that a Changeling would change it's way and the ponies would welcome him with open hoofs. I'm not saying a lot would change and I'm not saying your idea is all wrong. I think this way and you think this way. We are all in titled to deferent ways of thinking. 

[Nature's Spell 526]

I see the OP's point and those made subsequently. Clearly and uniquely the show has a strong underlying theme that every bad guy can be redeemed and that's a lovely. But it can become silly if done too often.

"Ahhh a new enemy," quick weld the Elements is Harmony or have Shining Armor and Cadence kiss and all will be perfect and next week we'll do it again.

 

I'd rather the show focus on repairing relations with clearly misunderstood races like the dragons, as was suggested, and leave the bad guys as bad guys. The alternative is constantly making new and worse bad guys, which starts to get old at some point.