Is it time for a revolution type episode?

[Rarity Paige Belle 1,853]

All absolute monarchs end up being overthrown by their own people. Is it time for Celestia and Luna to make way for democraticly elected government?

[~Silver Essence~ 2,621]

Not really.

 

Keep in mind, once again, this is a show for little girls, we don't need much more than that despite the cult phenomenon of older male fans..

[Scootalove 10,684]

I don't see a purpose to having a revolution type episode, their subjects don't look unhappy or want to overthrow Celestia and Luna. Since they are not oppressive at all, there's no point.

[Rarity Paige Belle 1,853]

Not really.

 

Keep in mind, once again, this is a show for little girls, we don't need much more than that despite the cult phenomenon of older male fans..

Okay but when do you Americans learn about the American revolution, when you Yanks got rid of a king. 6? 7? And yet they come home and watch a program that says that absolute monarchy is a good thing?

[Something Floaty 1,333]

Okay but when do you Americans learn about the American revolution, when you Yanks got rid of a king. 6? 7? And yet they come home and watch a program that says that absolute monarchy is a good thing?

 

 

The American Revolution didn't overthrow a King, it separated us from one. King George went right on...uh, kinging. Wait, no, reigning, that sounds much more like a real word. Anyways, yeah, we learn about it, because it is part of our history. 

 

MLP doesn't need a revolution because the 'absolute monarchy' that rules in Equestria isn't exactly despotic. If you hadn't noticed, there also isn't a police force, a military (beyond a palace guard), taxes, transportation enforcement...the point being, despite the brony fandom and our love for picking apart the show and analyzing things to death, it is still a cartoon and not an in-depth study of the history of representative government. 

 

Besides, if all absolute monarchies were like Equestria, they WOULD be a good thing. No one is suffering, everyone is happy all the time, no one appears to worry about money or their place in society. It's paradise....because it's an animated show about anthropomorphic ponies, not a PBS special. 

[King Sejong 858]

   This is My Little Pony Friendship is Magic, not "Les Miserables" or "Hunger Games", it is not place to depict political strife, keep in mind children are watching, and military bronies do not like to see a good show turn violent, we have seen enough of that in real life, and do not like to be reminded of the world we live in. However, there are fan fictions that have this sort of topic covered, and do so with care, while others have gruesome descriptions and bloody war, yet it is the smart and carefully crafted fan fiction I like to read, that don't have to use so much belligerent drama, even the Victorian writers were conservative when it came to discussing violence, but this is Equestria, not 1789 France nor 1916 Russia, the ponies do not seem to revel with gnashing teeth, ready to charge the rampart or construct a barricade, maybe we should learn by their example on how to resolve conflict without gunpowder or sharpened blades, that is the very last resort, and that is what is good about MLP, because friendship really is magical.     

[Mlpfan185 1,763]

Something was here. Something was here. Something was here. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by NONAME

[Cwanky 17,468]

No unfortunately not given the context of the show. It may work in a historical context like Hearts and Hooves Day, dealing with discontent of the 3 pony races but not anything. An episode though regarding a revolution of Celestia or Luna probably won't occur, as they're meant to be role models, both to the ponies and by extension to the fans that watch. 

 

Okay but when do you Americans learn about the American revolution, when you Yanks got rid of a king. 6? 7? And yet they come home and watch a program that says that absolute monarchy is a good thing?

The thing is we really don't know how Equestria runs, save a brief description and guide in the official handbook and wiki. Even regarding Ponyville, there's so little we actually know.

 

The best guess is that Equestria is ran off of a mixed constitutional monarchy system. They do have a medieval theme going and a fairly insulated and powerful monarchy, but functionally we also see plenty of modern democratic elements.

 

Obviously there's a mayor, Mayor Mare, elected or otherwise in Ponyville that at least fulfills some basic roles of a local state official. She has to gives speeches, and yes that's a large role. She also seems at least to somewhat address the needs and wants of the public. We see this outside of Ponyville too in Cloudsdale as seen in a flashback where its mentioned that mayors tend to announce the coordination of events like the Equestria Games. There's also as seen in Ponyville Confidential, not just newspaper but a free press, which went as far as to publish a "damning story" about Mayor Mare.

 

All examples and numerous others illustrate that at the least, although in part Equestria is functionally and nominally a monarchy, it only does so in part and has many elements similar to our modern democracies. Having Equestria have a monarchy is more of a way to tailor the show to its target audience and genre and concept of fairy tales, fantasy and princesses, a common Disney-esque marketing goal as cynical as that sounds.

 

The idea of a revolution of course does make for a great premise for a plot and story - a fan fiction that is. I would encourage you if you're so inclined to pursue that route. Hasbro, for better or worse, is only interested in seeing that little girls aspire to become princesses in a world where princesses don't exist or are a rarity. 

[Wingnut 6,733]

Didn't we already see a revolution?  Celestia and Luna overthrew Discord as I recall.   

 

Revolutions occur when rulers are cruel, fail to address grievances, hardships, etc.  By most accounts, Celestia and Luna haven't been mistreating their subjects. 

[SasQ 1,355]

Okay but when do you Americans learn about the American revolution, when you Yanks got rid of a king. 6? 7? And yet they come home and watch a program that says that absolute monarchy is a good thing?

 

When do you Americans (and other people too) learn that democracy is not necessarily the best system?

Democracy is the system where 2 stupid people will vote out 1 smart man, and then all three are doomed. Not much a good idea if you ask me  Especially that there are usually lots more of stupid people than 2:1  :okiedokielokie:

 

 

Monarchy might not be perfect in some cases (when you have a bad ruler), but it at least is OK when you have such a good ruler as Celestia (& Luna). Wise ruler which cares about well-being of her kingdom and her subjects means every pony is happy.

 

You can think that democracy is better because it leaves you the choice. But it isn't, when your informed decisions are overthrown by decisions of other, less-informed people. And it can be manipulated so easily by those who want to exploit it.

 

Do you know why governments do what they can to allow more and more people voting? Because this way they introduce more stupid people into the pool, who can then be manipulated easier by cheap populism and election gimmicks. It also serves as a scapegoat: politicians can do bad, and if you complain, they can always tell you:

"Then why did you vote for us? It's your fault then! See you next election." 

 

You can think that in democracy it's all in your hand, and you can fire the bad politician in the next election. But this is also a smoke screen: they want you to think you're in charge, but it's them who set up the rules of this game. First off, your choice is usually very limited to a bunch of candidates they already chose for you (so the choice is illusionary). Then, they present them (and only them!) in your TV, showing you the results of supposed "surveys" so that you could think which one of those guys "leads in the surveys". People often vote for the leader, from several reasons:

1. They don't want to be in the loser's boat.

2. They don't want to "waste their vote" by voting on someone who will fail anyways (that's what they think of the less popular candidates).

So they usually just vote for whoever the TV presenters are telling them to vote for.

 

There was a guy, an American economist named Kenneth Joseph Arrow (Nobel prize laureate in 1972), who mathematically proved that free election is impossible, because the conditions it needs to meet to be fair exclude each other and are contradictory. So you either have to accept that society will not act rationally like an individual would, or you have to accept that society’s preferences will exactly mimic one person’s preferences. In a sense, that makes the individual a dictator. So democracy is in fact dictatorship in a clever disguise which makes everyone think he's in charge, while the game is spoiled from the start.

 

It ca be shown (also mathematically) how the result of election could be easily manipulated by the minority of clever wicked men. In 1785, Marquis de Condorcet wrote one of his most important works, "Essay on the Application of Analysis to the Probability of Majority Decisions". In that work he described so called "voting paradox". It goes like this:

 

Suppose there are three candidates who want to rule Equestria: Celestia, Luna and Discord, so they organize an election. And there are three voters (for simplicity's sake; with more voters, things get more complicated, but it still does work that way): Twilight Sparkle, Pinkie Pie and Trixie  Each of them have some preferences about who will they vote for:

Twilight Sparkle is smart, but authority-driven. She's in good relations with Princess Celestia and she also likes Princess Luna, but she hates Discord. So her preferences are: Celestia over Luna over Discord.

Pinkie Pie likes chocolate rain and randomness, but she also likes Princess Celestia, and she's afraid of Princess Luna, so her preferences are: Discord over Celestia over Luna. (Also she will represent the silly part of the nation  )

Trixie likes to disagree with Twilight Sparkle, so she puts Celestia as her least preferred. She likes Dark Magic, so her preferences are: Luna over Discord over Celestia. In summary:

 

Twilight Sparkle:  Celestia > Luna > Discord.

Pinkie Pie:            Discord > Celestia > Luna.

Trixie Lulamoon:  Luna > Discord > Celestia.

 

I hope you can see already that this is a perfect rock-paper-scissor arrangement (mathematicians call it "non-transitive"). In a perfect world, this would mean a tie, because everyone would vote for a different candidate. If Celestia was chosen, then Pinkie Pie and Trixie would protest, since they both prefer Discord over Celestia, so they're 2:1. But if Discord was chosen, then Twilight and Trixie would protest, because they both prefer Luna over Discord, and that's 2:1. But if Luna was chosen, then Twilight and Pinkie would protest, because they both prefer Celestia over Luna, which means 2:1. There's no way to make every pony happy.

 

Unfortunately, we're not living in a perfect world. Suppose Discord knows what the preferences are. And he doesn't want Celestia to win. He can come up to Trixie and tell her: "I'm sure you're aware that Twilight will vote for Celestia. You're a clever pony after all. Oh, and I heard that Pinkie Pie prefers Celestia over your best choice, Luna, too. So they will over-vote you easily. You wouldn't want that to happen, would you? So what about a deal? I know I'm your second best choice, so vote for me, and I'll convince Pinkie Pie for that too, and we'll all over-vote Twilight. You don't like Twilight, right?"  Then they will over-vote Twilight, because Pinkie Pie already prefers Discord over Celestia. Without Discord manipulating Trixie and being her second choice, he wouldn't have chance to win. But now they can over-vote Twilight. Discord rules, Celestia drools 

You may think that if there were more ponies voting, there would be less chance for a tie, and you're right. But does it mean than there would be less chances for Discord to win then? Not at all! Let's check out:

 

Suppose that ponies are smarter than humans, and the surveys show the following distribution of preferences:

203 ponies want to vote for Celestia, their second choice is Luna, and they leave Discord as their last choice.

146 ponies want to vote for Luna, their second choice is Discord, and last choice is Celestia.

110 ponies want to vote for Discord, their second choice is Celestia, and last choice is Luna.

From the above survey we can clearly see who has the best chances for winning, and who has the least.

But Discord is clever. He comes up with the idea to make debates between two candidates at a time. Whoever wins the first debate, will then battle with the remaining candidate, and whoever wins the last debate, is the ultimate winner. Seems fair enough, isn't it?

 

But then Discord says that the first debate should be between the two leading candidates, that is, Celestia and Luna. In this debate, Celestia wins with Luna, because 203 ponies will vote for Celestia as their best choice, and 110 ponies still prefer Celestia over Luna, even if their best choice was Discord. So 203+110 will make 313 votes for Celestia, and she's the winner of the first debate, so the majority of ponies celebrate her victory. But then comes the second debate, between Celestia and Discord. We can see that 203 ponies still vote for Celestia. But 146 ponies will vote rather for Discord than Celestia (as their second and third choice, accordingly), and 110 ponies wanted to vote for Discord as their best candidate to begin with, which makes 146+110=256 votes for Discord, and only 203 for Celestia! Again, Discord rules, Celestia drools! 

 

You can check the two other orderings of the debates to see that each of them will make someone else win, despite the fact that no pony has changed his preferences along the way. This means that the result of this election depends only on the order of debates! It doesn't depend at all on the preferences of the voters! But all voters will think that their vote mattered, and that they lose fairly, according to the rules 

 

If this doesn't convince you yet, then next time you'll think that democracy is good, imagine you're a sheep voting with two wolves about what's on the dinner 

Edited February 21, 2014 by SasQ

[Ponies n Pizza 38]

I don't see a point in there being a revolution because the princesses are not treating any pony unfairly and all of the ponies seem to really look up to the princess!

[DryGuy84 (Inactive) 927]

When do you Americans (and other people too) learn that democracy is not necessarily the best system?

Democracy is the system where 2 stupid people will vote out 1 smart man, and then all three are doomed. Not much a good idea if you ask me Especially that there are usually lots more of stupid people than 2:1  :okiedokielokie:

 

Monarchy might not be perfect in some cases (when you have a bad ruler), but it at least is OK when you have such a good ruler as Celestia (& Luna). Wise ruler which cares about well-being of his kingdom and his subjects means everyone is happy.

 

You can think that democracy is better because it allows you to decide. But it isn't when your informed decision is overthrown by decisions of other, less-informed people. And it can be manipulated so easily by those who want to exploit it. Do you know why governments do their best to allow more and more people voting? Because this way they introduce more stupid people into the pool, which can be manipulated easier by populism and election gimmicks. It also serves as a scapegoat: politicians can do bad, and if you complain, they can always tell you: "Then why have you voted for us? It's your fault then! See you next election."

 

You can think that in democracy it's all in your hand, and you can fire the bad politician in the next election. But this is also a smoke screen: they want you to think you're in charge, but it's them who sets up the rules of this game. First off, your choice is usually very limited to a bunch of candidates they already chosen for you (so the choice is illusionary). Then, they present them (and only them!) in your TV, showing you the results of supposed "surveys" so that you could think which one of those guys "leads in the surveys". People often vote for the leader, from several reasons:

1. They don't want to be in the looser's boat.

2. They don't want to "waste their vote" by voting on someone who will fail anyways.

So they usually just vote for whoever the TV presenters are telling them to vote for.

There was a guy, an American economist named Kenneth Joseph Arrow (Nobel prize laureate in 1972), who mathematically proved that

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow" s_impossibility_theorem"="">It ca be shown (also mathematically) how the result of election could be easily manipulated by the minority of clever wicked men. In 1785, Marquis de Condorcet wrote one of his most important works, "Essay on the Application of Analysis to the Probability of Majority Decisions". In that work he described so called "voting paradox". It goes like this:

 

Suppose there are three candidates who want to rule Equestria: Celestia, Luna and Discord, so they organize an election. And there are three voters (for simplicity's sake; with more voters, things get more complicated, but it still does work that way): Twilight Sparkle, Pinkie Pie and Trixie  Each of them have some preferences about who will they vote for:

Twilight Sparkle is smart, but authority-driven. She's in good relations with Princess Celestia and she also likes Princess Luna, but she hates Discord. So her preferences are: Celestia over Luna over Discord.

Pinkie Pie likes chocolate rain and randomness, but she also likes Princess Celestia, and she's afraid of Princess Luna, so her preferences are: Discord over Celestia over Luna. (Also she will represent the silly part of the nation  )

Trixie likes to disagree with Twilight Sparkle, so he puts Celestia as her least preferred. She likes Dark Magic, so her preferences are: Luna over Discord over Celestia. In summary:

 

Twilight Sparkle:  Celestia > Luna > Discord.

Pinkie Pie:            Discord > Celestia > Luna.

Trixie Lulamoon:  Luna > Discord > Celestia.

 

In a perfect world, this would mean a tie, because everyone would vote for a different candidate. If Celestia was chosen, then Pinkie Pie and Trixie would protest, since they both prefer Discord over Celestia, so they're 2:1. But if Discord was chosen, then Twilight and Trixie would protest, because they both prefer Luna over Discord, and that's 2:1. But if Luna was chosen, then Twilight and Pinkie would protest, because they both prefer Celestia over Luna, which means 2:1. There's no way to make every pony happy.

 

Unfortunately, we're not living in a perfect world. Suppose Discord knows what the preferences are. And he doesn't want Celestia to win. He can come up to Trixie and tell her: "Do you know that Twilight will vote for Celestia? Oh, and Pinkie Pie prefers Celestia over your best choice, Luna, too. So they will over-vote you easily. So what about a deal? I know I'm your second best choice, so vote for me, and I'll convince Pinkie Pie for that too, and we'll all over-vote Twilight. You don't like Twilight, right?"  Then they will over-vote Twilight, because Pinkie Pie already prefers Discord over Celestia. Without Discord manipulating Trixie and being her second choice, he wouldn't have chance to win. But now they can over-vote Twilight. Discord rules, Celestia drools 

You may think that if there were more ponies voting, there would be less chance for a tie, and you're right. But does it mean than there would be less chances for Discord to win then? Not at all! Let's check out:

 

Suppose that ponies are smarter than humans, and the surveys show the following distribution of preferences:

203 ponies want to vote for Celestia, their second choice is Luna, and they leave Discord as their last choice.

146 ponies want to vote for Luna, their second choice is Discord, and last choice is Celestia.

110 ponies want to vote for Discord, their second choice is Celestia, and last choice is Luna.

From the above survey we can clearly see who has the best chances for winning, and who has the least.

But Discord is clever. He comes up with the idea to make debates between two candidates at a time. Whoever wins the first debate, will then battle with the remaining candidate, and whoever wins the last debate, is the ultimate winner. Seems fair enough, isn't it?

But then Discord says that the first debate should be between the two leading candidates, that is, Celestia and Luna. In this debate, Celestia wins with Luna, because 203 ponies will vote for Celestia as their best choice, and 110 ponies still prefer Celestia over Luna, even if their best choice was Discord. So 203+110 will make 313 votes for Celestia, and she's the winner of the first debate, so the majority of ponies celebrate her victory. But then comes the second debate, between Celestia and Discord. We can see that 203 ponies still vote for Celestia. But 146 ponies will vote rather for Discord than Celestia (as their second and third choice, accordingly), and 110 ponies wanted to vote for Discord as their best candidate to begin with, which makes 146+110=256 votes for Discord, and only 203 for Celestia! Again, Discord rules, Celestia drools! 

You can check the two other orderings of the debates to see that each of them will make someone else win, despite the fact that no pony has changed his preferences along the way. This means that the result of this election depends only on the order of debates! It doesn't depend at all on the preferences of the voters! But all voters will think that their vote mattered, and that they lose fairly, according to the rules 

 

Yea, I'm an American and I can safely say our system is flawed. I don't like talking politics, so I'll just say that monarchies and democracies both have their strengths and have their flaws (also remember I'm currently in college for a Cyber Security degree, so while I'm no expert on our government I'm knowledgeable enough to see that it is definitely flawed).

[Metemponychosis 1,238]

I think that this is one of those examples of people forgetting that Equestria is not Earth. The way I see it, and I'm very open to the possibility that I'm wrong, Democracy is not the best solution to the "problem of government". It's just the best we managed to achieve and even then, it's debatable. Remembering that we call "democracy" this system where people vote and elect individuals to assume official positions within the government. And then these people will chose others to help them and make decisions about the country.

 

So, in this system, the people that get elected are not the ones that are the best at running a country: it's the ones that are better at convincing large groups of people that they are the best at doing this job.

 

Equestria is different. In modern Equestria, as far as we know from the show, the ones that get to rule are the ones that in fact understand the qualities qualities of a good friend and it could be a stretch but these can be the qualities of a good leader. That is, if Twilight's ascension actually means anything.

 

It's true that Luna and Celestia are not shown or mentioned in any way having to pass the same kinds of tests, but ponies seem to be happy enough with them and they are alicorns. Unless the show gives a significant hint that they are different, I can believe that they are as benevolent and competent as Twilight should be now.

 

TL;DR: democracy may be the best we can do, but Equestria has a better solution.

 

EDIT: Also... Any system can be corrupted. It's about the people, or ponies, running it.

Edited February 21, 2014 by moonlightavenger

[SasQ 1,355]

 

 

Equestria is different. In modern Equestria, as far as we know from the show, the ones that get to rule are the ones that in fact understand the qualities qualities of a good friend and it could be a stretch but these can be the qualities of a good leader. That is, if Twilight's ascension actually means anything.

 

Great observation, and you have a good point here!

Leaders are those who other people (or ponies) follow, from their own will. If they're good at what they do, they attract people/ponies, which start to automatically follow them, and they doesn't have to be forced by the leader nor by some laws for doing that.

I once wrote an article about that. Unfortunately it doesn't have English version yet, but you can try out the simulations which are embedded there to see how a minority of leaders can lead a whole lot of others, even if they don't lead them directly.

 

 

 

It's true that Luna and Celestia are not shown or mentioned in any way having to pass the same kinds of tests, but ponies seem to be happy enough with them and they are Alicorns.

 

Don't you forget how the Alicorn Sisters freed the ponies in Equestria from the miserable regime of Discord? How they restored the natural cycles of Sun and Moon (day & night) after Discord messed them up? I don't think Celestia and Luna had to force ponies to follow their rules, or that they particularly wanted to rule Equestria after beating Discord. But salvated ponies were so frateful to them that they chose the Alicorn Sisters as their godlike rulers nevertheless

[Metemponychosis 1,238]

 

 

Don't you forget how the Alicorn Sisters freed the ponies in Equestria from the miserable regime of Discord? How they restored the natural cycles of Sun and Moon (day & night) after Discord messed them up? I don't think Celestia and Luna had to force ponies to follow their rules, or that they particularly wanted to rule Equestria after beating Discord. But salvated ponies were so frateful to them that they chose the Alicorn Sisters as their godlike rulers nevertheless

 

Well, I agree with you. To me, to this point in the show, there is no doubt that the Sisters are both efficient and benevolent rulers (even if Trixie can take a city and Celestia doesn't even seem to know about it). I like this notion that Discord screwed up Equestria so bad that the ponies needed someone who knew what they were doing in order to fix stuff. Maybe modern Equestria's government machine sort of grew around the two sisters. I'd love to see in the show how did Equestria come to be the way it is today, but I guess it's way out of the shows scope for it to happen. Maybe someday we can know how did the two Sisters came to be, or to be alicorns.

 

Maybe I'm the only one that would like to see how Equestria's government works. Maybe they have a parliament? Some sort of House of Lords appointed by the princesses and a House of Commons, elected by the populace? Honestly, I'd rather never see "democracy" in Equestria. Maybe it's more like: Bang! Political cutie mark. Congratulations, pony! You're going to represent your city in the Royal Court! Or you're going to be the next mayor.

 

Please, DHX... Just don't tell me that the princesses are figureheads...  :okiedokielokie:

 

But I doubt this will ever be present in the show. I mean, the most we got was Celestia signing some papers...

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

I actually wouldn't assume that Celestia and Luna ARE absolute rulers.

I mean, maybe they ARE in Equestrian legal terms, but they almost never assert any authority over the actual populace. They just seem to keep to themselves, raise the celestial bodies, avert disasters, and go to diplomatic meetings. And Luna helps her subjects get a good night's sleep.

 

Everyone in Equestria seems to have complete control over what they do with their lives.

Real world absolute rulers tried to control the lives of their subjects, and that's why they were overthrown.

[Koelath 444]

This is a bad thread consisting of a bad question.

Leave it in the fanfiction.

[Bendy 1,819]

No!

 

Because Celestia and Luna are not antagonists. 

[Twilight Dash 28]

If there was an episode where there was a communist revolution then Joseph Stallion and Vladimare Lenin would become the leaders of Equestria and all the royal ponies would get executed. The mane six would also get executed because they are the friends of Twilight Sparkle. Filthy Rich and Mayor Mare also get executed. I really doubt that will become an episode. If they actually did something that stupid they should probably do it as the series final.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Twilight Dash

[Jammo 986]

Equestria is pretty utopian. If they did it I think showing dissent among the crystal ponies during Sombra's rule would be the best way to tell that kind of story. But Celestia and Luna are fair leaders and only paranoid idealists with anarchy symbol cutie marks would be down with overthrowing Celestia.

[FNGRpony 655]

Not really.

 

Keep in mind, once again, this is a show for little girls, we don't need much more than that despite the cult phenomenon of older male fans..

okay i think it's obtuse to all it little girls

 

can we at least call it a girls show and not just a little girls show.

 

Why do little girls wanna see high school driven mlp movies?

 

NO really answer me that.

[DryGuy84 (Inactive) 927]

okay i think it's obtuse to all it little girls

 

can we at least call it a girls show and not just a little girls show.

 

Why do little girls wanna see high school driven mlp movies?

 

NO really answer me that.

 

Why do you think young girls all across the world would want to watch monarchies shed in a bad light? Quite a few fans of the show are from the UK, btw. Also why would I answer the question that much of the fandom went "Huh? What a strange choice for MLP movie," it makes no sense. Young girls don't want an EqG movie any more or any less than anyone else. Lastly, like it or not the target audience IS young girls, but if the show is written exclusively for adults then it will lose its charm. That's what Silver Essence meant.

Edited February 22, 2014 by DryColt84