spoiler Does a Villain in MLP Really Need to be a Threat?

[TBD 17,254]

So I came by to this interesting topic from Equestria daily discussing about if mlp's villains really need to be a threat? or can they be define in a different way depending who you are dealing with?  read more from below.

https://www.equestriadaily.com/2017/11/pony-for-your-thoughts-does-villain.html

So what do you guys think?

[Them's Seeing Ponies 282]

The guy makes some good points, but I feel he missed the reason why fans were issuing complaints about the Pony of Shadows. It's not that he wasn't threatening in a direct way, it's that we had a ton of exposition dropped onto us throughout both parts that build up the Pony of Shadows as a threat, and the episodes treat him as an antagonist akin to the other two-parter big bads (including the serious tone of both parts) but ultimately we don't actually see most of what he does or any major reasons that justify the episode's treatment of him (including the 22-minute buildup to his return), which makes the conflict feel thin and 'stakeless' as a result. It's an unpopular opinion, but that's my two cents on the matter. 

[Guest]

By the definition of threat, then yes, the Pony of Shadows would still have been a threat. But Skullivan does have a point in that it wouldn't have been brought on unless Star Swirl hadn't been so simple-minded and snowballed his bad decisions into his other bad decisions one after another. 

[Castle Bleck 19,366]

The comparisons between TPOS and Sombra aren't really that accurate.

 

Sombra was nevertheless a Crazy-Prepared No-Nonsense Nemesis who almost won despite his lack of directness (minor characterization/screentime or not, that still sounds pretty threatening); TPOS unfortunately suffered from Informed Ability and Stupid Evil (Stygian himself was still interesting, though).

Edited December 1, 2017 by A.V.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

The writer is peddling a slice-o-life agenda of muh issues > awesomeness while site owner begs for users' shekels due to drop in fan numbers. Sure, sure, everyone loves big flashy fights and genuine villains but I'm still gonna use a big Brony platform to tell you why this is better cause I got rustled by a bunch of complainers on a fan forum.

 

There are two completely different stories this slicer is trying to glue together:

 

First is the classic Lovecraftian horror where fear of the unfathomable unknown manifests itself in mad visions and delirious accounts of things that cannot possibly be anything but a fever dream. Here, the readers/viewers are left in the dark about the true nature of the villain and we are mostly dealing with negative effects he/she/it has on minds of protagonists and their environment.

 

The second is not a story about a villain at all. It's just a big misunderstanding that leads protagonists to believe they are dealing with an evil and/or dangerous entity when it's in fact just a lion roaring cause it got a thorn stuck in its paw.

 

Guess which one we're dealing with here. There is a proper time and place for both types when it comes to antagonists. Our glorious writers did the lion to various degrees with NMM, Discord, Starlight, Tempest, and Stygian. They all had trivial problems stuck in their chests and turned into bad guys for a few episodes. These characters are not actually evil, just mentally weak, socially inept, and stupid so they need counseling and special friendship classes. This story can be a powerful one indeed; however, it's to be used once or twice. Every message can be devalued and abused through mindless repetition. It is no longer some good grand revelation but a predictable annoyance that makes people roll their eyes.

 

And so, yes, a villain does not need to be a direct threat, but what does that have to do with Stygian? He was a direct threat, just extremely overhyped by both characters and H-Bro. This is also a story you can only do once or twice.

 

P.S: Having or not having flashy fights has nothing to do with nature of the antagonist. You can have Super Saiyan Robin Hood have an intense fight with Super Saiyan Little John on the bridge above the Abyss of Eternal Suffering and Despair but they still become best nakamas at the end. Mind-blowing, I know. The restriction likely lies in animation costs.

[Mlppotterwhoovian 381]

The villains are supposed to be someone we’re truly terrified of to see our favorite characters try to handle the situation with them. Tirek was the only real one I was pretty terrified of. I want to get that feeling again, a sense of nervousness of how our main characters are going to solve these problems. So, while villains are a threat to ponyville , the show would go downhill without more villains and possibly even end.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

5 hours ago, TBD said:

So I came by to this interesting topic from Equestria daily discussing about if mlp's villains really need to be a threat? or can they be define in a different way depending who you are dealing with?  read more from below.

https://www.equestriadaily.com/2017/11/pony-for-your-thoughts-does-villain.html

So what do you guys think?

Well, they need to be seen as a threat, that doesn't mean they have to be threatening, it is possible for a villain to be good based off personality, backstory, and how interesting the concept is.

the PoS is immensely interesting from a lore standpoint.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

I think there should be a good mix, from the petty bullies to the truly sinister and wicked tryrants.

The latter is deliciously tense, but the former is satisfying to see dealt with in the fact that that's what most of us are going to have to deal with in our own lives.

[Thrond 3,263]

Not necessarily. I'm of a mind that the villain should always be an extension of the story being told. If the story relies on spectacle or tension, then yes, the villain must be a threat. Otherwise, not necessarily; I've come to like Tirek mainly as a foil for Twilight, but he could have served that role without also being the most intense villain the ponies had faced up to that point. So if there's a comedic, emotional, or thematic idea the villain embodies, they don't necessarily need to be a major threat to Equestria either. Though, of course, a big threatening villain can be great fun as well, and while they really aren't my favourite part of the show anymore, there's certainly room for this aspect to continue existing and improving itself. 

My issue with the Pony of Shadows was ultimately that he wasn't very unique or interesting, and making him more threatening wouldn't have changed that. But there, the main emotional journey does require the villain to actually be threatening, because that's the one thing which makes Starswirl's opinion sound reasonable. Without that, the emotional conflict has no friction, and the abundance of exposition flattens all emotional involvement. 

[Singe 2,111]

I'm going at another angle that The Pony of Shadows was a red herring and Star Swirl was the true adversary.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Singe

[Castle Bleck 19,366]

On 12/1/2017 at 1:05 AM, Singe said:

I'm going at another angle that The Pony of Shadows was a red herring and Star Swirl was the true adversary.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

Still, it wouldn't have hurt for TPOS to be more epic in the process.

[Will Guide 21,360]

On 11/30/2017 at 10:05 PM, Singe said:

I'm going at another angle that The Pony of Shadows was a red herring and Star Swirl was the true adversary.

@A.V.

If you ask me, it's not Star Swirl himself that's the villian, it was Star Swirl's pride and lack of understanding the Power of Friendship that was the real thing to overcome. Once he realized we was wrong and that Stygian was worth saving, he actually led the rest to help save Stygian, leaving the Darkness that was manipulating the young unicorn to disappear into Limbo.

Star Swirl is not a bad pony, just flawed and needed to learn something just like any other person would.

Edited December 3, 2017 by WiiGuy2014

[Jeric 46,851]

On 11/30/2017 at 2:47 PM, Sunset Rose said:

By the definition of threat, then yes, the Pony of Shadows would still have been a threat. But Skullivan does have a point in that it wouldn't have been brought on unless Star Swirl hadn't been so simple-minded and snowballed his bad decisions into his other bad decisions one after another. 

He does bring up a good point, yes. Thematically I actually think it adds some flavor to the finale though. Some of the greatest stories and legends revolve around the concept I like to call the Gozer Harmartia. Good can create that which will destroy us. Le Morte d'Arthur and Star Wars are noted for this theme being prevalent. In both cases a decent person with noble intentions has a lapse in judgement or morals and created the vessel that will rise to oppose him. Shadow Play felt very much in line with folk legends and mythology, and I suspect so it fits nicely. 

On 12/1/2017 at 1:05 AM, Singe said:

I'm going at another angle that The Pony of Shadows was a red herring and Star Swirl was the true adversary.

Well, since good is an adversary of evil so you are correct no matter what angle to come from. Star Swirl and Stygian were in opposition, yes. 

 

As far as crafting a villain without major stakes, or a true threat, I actually want to think on this one ... 

[Singe 2,111]

Broken down, The Pony of Shadows was a product of bad decisions and mistakes by the "good" guys. Which really at its basis is the same as in several past episodes where the Mane 6 or CMC make a bad decision/mistake and it causes a bigger problem. All villains don't need to be threatening as on the other side the series has shown the good guys can be just as destructive threats.

Parasprites were a more formidable threat than The Pony of Shadows.

 

 

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

On 11/30/2017 at 3:01 PM, A.V. said:

The comparisons between TPOS and Sombra aren't really that accurate.

 

Sombra was nevertheless a Crazy-Prepared No-Nonsense Nemesis who almost won despite his lack of directness (minor characterization/screentime or not, that still sounds pretty threatening); TPOS unfortunately suffered from Informed Ability and Stupid Evil (Stygian himself was still interesting, though).

 

The sad thing about the pony of shadows is that he honestly comes off as an edgy teenager; He complaining about other people not respecting or getting him, spews out random and nonsensical dialogue about "darkness" and things like that, and when he loses he basically just pisses off back to his room and locks himself inside of it until the Mane six start banging on his door and drag him out.

All that was missing was him Listening to linkin park

 

Additionally, its SERIOUSLY hard to take him seriously as a threat when he gets BTFO by NORMAL ponies just shooting lasers at him till he runs away, no artifacts or deep magic involved, just twilight and starlight beaming him in the face when he first shows up. That is WEAK. Like, even the changelings Seemed VASTLY stronger than that since Starlight and twilight alone wouldn't have stood a chance.

Look at the other villains like Tirek or Discord who fighting via lasers (When not powered up into a literal god) would seem utterly useless, and then compare the pony of shadows-- His power is UTTERLY an informed attribute at its worst. SHOW, don't tell. You want use to respect his threat? Don't have him lose a couple rounds of laser tag and run away like a kid with hurt feelings.

 

On 11/30/2017 at 2:24 PM, TBD said:

So I came by to this interesting topic from Equestria daily discussing about if mlp's villains really need to be a threat? or can they be define in a different way depending who you are dealing with?  read more from below.

https://www.equestriadaily.com/2017/11/pony-for-your-thoughts-does-villain.html

So what do you guys think?

 

If you're going to be a two parter villain, YES, you need to be a threat-- This is a TWO PARTER, its supposed to be a big pull out the stops event, the cap to a season or the start to one, that raises the stakes and pushes the envelope farther than other episodes.

If you're not going to be an intimidating or threatening villain with good character and motivation then you should be a middle of the season villain, like how we had antagonists like the Tantabus or the diamond dogs. (Heck, I think the tantabus was a BETTER villain than the pony of shadows was, it had a clearly explained threat and goal, and flowed better since its purpose was to be a VILLAIN/THREAT and not a redemption pinata).

 

Not every antagonists needs to be ultra threatening or Ultra deep, but if you're a premier or Finale villain you better bring your A game, and the pony of shadows falls flat-- Even SOMBRA is a better villain than him, and I'd daresay the pony of shadows is the worst villain the show has had yet.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Unlikeable Pony

[Castle Bleck 19,366]

9 hours ago, Unlikeable Pony said:

Even SOMBRA is a better villain than him,

 

Like I've said before...

 

Say what you will about his personality or screentime; at least he still demonstrated his actual threat (even more so in his Cutie Re-Mark timeline).

Edited December 4, 2017 by A.V.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

12 hours ago, A.V. said:

 

Like I've said before...

 

Say what you will about his personality or screentime; at least he still demonstrated his actual threat (even more so in his Cutie Re-Mark timeline).

 from what we've seen on screen, I 100% think Sombra could easily kick the pony of shadow's emo butt all over equestria.