S08:E04 - Fake It 'Til You Make It

[gingerninja666 487]

4 minutes ago, MegaSean45 said:

Yunno this episode actually provided a factor on Fluttershy that I learned in psychology class where she took 'pretending' too far and it became too real. There was a similar experiment at some college of some kind of prison experiment that was supposed to be a few weeks long, but ended in just a few days cause the students playing as guards were just beating up on those poor students that were prisoners who went crazy or became mindless zombies, which is why they made human psychology experiments illegal after that.

I remember that experiment actually. I forget what it was called.

[Zantetsuken 364]

8 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

I remember that experiment actually. I forget what it was called.

The Stanford Prison Experiment, I believe

Edited April 7, 2018 by Zantetsuken

[Shrug 9,953]

So. I wasn’t such a fan of today’s episode if I’m being honest. The main reason (I have many) for that being the conflict. 

Like. What normally happens in a story like this is that the main character feels the need to push themselves further because they weren’t doing a good enough job or because what they were doing just wasn’t working. But in this episode, it clearly shows that Fluttershy’s impressions at the very beginning were working out great. Everyone was satisfied, the shop seemed to be running well and she was doing a good job. So why does she feel the need to push it further if it isn’t needed? The episode literally never explains beyond saying that she just “went too far”. But if she went too far as the episode claims, then why does she point out early on in the episode that she thinks she should push it further? She literally says out loud that she doesn’t think she is going far enough. So it’s clear that pushing herself further was her decision. But why would she do this if what she was already doing was working? 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Captain Clark

[Mesme Rize 15,683]

This episode was all over the place and it also kinda derailed flutters character progression.

I mean, you could say it's a positive that she dosen't have to overcome her shyness again. But it dosen't make the episode better. Infact, this episode made me really not like her, especially towards the part where she talked with her friends.

I was also a bit confused about why she was so oblivious about sewing, considering She and Rarity did that over the whole series.

There where a few fun moments with the characteristics she portrayed and how Spike tried to speak with the raccoons, but it dosen't safe the episode for me.

Worst episode of the season so far.

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

So I saw MLP season 8 ep 4. I thought it was better than last weeks episode and the animation was top notch especially on Flutters new outfits and Fluttershy acting like different Manhattan ponies was hilarious. I liked how all of the other Mane 5 came to help Fluttershy at the end. It was great to see more of Rarity as a business pony and how the shop actually functions. I thought it was super funny how Rarity asked the other ponies first and I think it makes sense because Rarity knows Fluttershy has stage fright and might be intimidated in the shop.  

[Will Guide 21,360]

Near the start of Act 1 Fluttershy said:

"I'm afraid I don't know much about Fashion to satisfy these customers"

I know how that feels. The only time I had to work with clothes professionally was stocking the clothing racks at the Goodwill. I wouldn't know the first thing about Fashion.

Let's see how she'll handle it...

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

Yeah... this is the worst episode for me since Fluttershy Leans In. And yes, I am biased against Fluttershy at this point.

I just don’t understand why they can’t make her assertive without turning her into a jerk. Maybe they should stop making her assertive, and start making her confident. 

There were some very entertaining moments at the start, especially Fluttershy’s first passes at acting, but the second half was a train wreck. The episode on its own is pretty entertaining, but it just kind of ruined the characters to do it.

Solid meh/10.

[Truffles 2,033]

On 4/7/2018 at 11:32 AM, Zantetsuken said:

This is a shining example of an episode disregarding nearly everything about the character involved that has been established over the last 7 years to make the episode's plot work.

Yeah. Josh Hamilton sacrificed a fair amount of continuity for the sake of some gag he wanted to have in this episode. Fluttershy forgetting she cares about animals due to her "playing a character" stretches believably a bit too far. And some of the ideas in this episode don't make any sense:

For this episode to work, Fluttershy suddenly had to have no knowledge whatsoever of sewing or fashion, even though she's demonstrated both in Season 1. Her not being able to sew the elephant cozy I could see (knowledge vs. skill in putting it to use are two different things) but come on - she would know well enough you can't figure out a thread count by trying to count the actual threads with a magnifying glass.

Now, one could argue Rarity actually didn't pick Fluttershy first because she knew how shy she was. But as @Jeric said, Rarity herself admitted in the episode how far Fluttershy had come in getting over her shyness. So there's no reason she wouldn't have gone to her first.

Then there's the fact that the montage of skipping Flutters required Rarity to conveniently avoid asking Spike. If she had asked him, he would have agreed without hesitation and then there would be no episode. He was another sacrifice in order to do the montage gag. (Although one explanation is perhaps Manehattenites wouldn't accept a dragon as a sales clerk?)

I think the episode would have worked better if Rarity had simply asked Fluttershy first and worked her knowledge into the decision. I didn't care about the montage gag enough to sacrifice the lack of logic this episode had to exhibit. Then it would be because of the rude customers that caused her to take on these alternate personalities. Makes more sense to me, anyway.

Then there's geographical continuity. Ponyville, Manehatten, and Canterlot are now somehow walking distance between one another (even though Rarity did say she had to catch a train to get to Canterlot.) Maybe the have bullet trains now thanks to Twilight and Starlight's magical abilities? I can believe once Twilight was involved, she could teleport everyone from city to city, but that still doesn't explain how the cute trash pandas made it all the way from Manehatten to Ponyville in a short enough amount of time to warn Spike about the situation before the Canterlot fashion show ended.

I guess I don't mind the geographical continuity issues all that much, but it sure is strange and takes me out of the story when it gets brought to my attention.

 

On 4/7/2018 at 11:05 AM, Jeric said:

Not sure the writer needed to bring in the whole group in the last act either.

On 4/7/2018 at 12:02 PM, Denim&Venom said:

But the last act fell flat. Rarity calls Shy out on her BS after the effort Shy put in, only for her to suddenly up and apologize, drop all those persona's like nothing? Apparently she knew she was wrong, yet said all those things anyways?

I'm actually of the opposite opinion on the last act with the whole intervention thing - bringing everyone in kind of saved the episode for me. I was dreading the notion that we might be in for an entire episode of Fluttershy doing nothing but going through these personalities, only to come to a realization on her own how bad it was or have Rarity swoop in to make everything right. It was already getting dull for me partway into the second round with the personalities, so switching up the situation was an improvement.

Not that I disagree with @Denim&Venom statement about the resolution. That was another thing that made no sense, and it seemed to be that way just to have the firing gag in there where the multiple personalities had to be "fired" to bring the real Fluttershy back. It was a funny scene, but it was weird.

 

On 4/7/2018 at 12:09 PM, MegaSean45 said:

There was a similar experiment at some college of some kind of prison experiment that was supposed to be a few weeks long, but ended in just a few days cause the students playing as guards were just beating up on those poor students

Wow, I had forgotten about that. One thing that is different there is some of it was due to mob mentality that reinforced the beliefs of the students thinking they were guards and the others were the prisoners. I'm not sure what caused Fluttershy all by herself to fall so deep into these personalities that she couldn't turn it off.

 

So what did I like? I did like the one bit of continuity with bringing back the three raccoons, aka, the cute trash pandas. The scene with Spike and the three of them miming the situation was cute, and I laughed when Fluttershy tricked her friends out of the store, even if it didn't make sense because she knew what she was doing. And I like how all her friends didn't hesitate to come and help Fluttershy out of whatever it was she was going through. That gave me a nice warm fuzzy feeling. Andrea Libman seemed to be having fun in all of these different roles, so that made me happy, too.

I guess I would classify this episode as fun on the surface, especially if you never watched the show before. But the continuity and logic issues really make it hard to fully enjoy. I feel a bit like I'm becoming one of those "Fame and Misfortune" fanboys again on this episode, so I suppose I'll give it a like - and by doing so I pretty much have to give last week's episode a like as well (EDIT: I couldn't do it - at the hiatus I re-rated both down to "meh"), even though in both I felt the first two acts were kinda dull.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Truffles

[gingerninja666 487]

I know this is controversial, but I don't really have a massive issue with Shy not having her "freaky knowledge of sewing".

 

Why? Because that was 7 years ago and a one off gag. It wasn't a consistent part of Shy's character unless I'm forgetting other examples.

[ggg-2 3,552]

This episode was......Hm. Well, first Big Mac appearance (and line) of the season. That's a plus. (for me at least) That's really the only highlight.

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

1 minute ago, gingerninja666 said:

I know this is controversial, but I don't really have a massive issue with Shy not having her "freaky knowledge of sewing".

 

Why? Because that was 7 years ago and a one off gag. It wasn't a consistent part of Shy's character unless I'm forgetting other examples.

Yet in SfS, Flutters's knowledge for sewing was also taken seriously. Hadn't she knew how to sew, the RM5 wouldn't be able to properly assemble Rarity's Gala dress. The "gag" foreshadowed a future event.

[gingerninja666 487]

1 minute ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Yet in SfS, Flutters's knowledge for sewing was also taken seriously. Hadn't she knew how to sew, the RM5 wouldn't be able to properly assemble Rarity's Gala dress. The "gag" foreshadowed a future event.

I'm thinking of an episode from season 1 of the simpsons. Bart and Lisa are both brats, Homer is the one who's ashamed of his family embarassing him at a get together, and Marge is a drunk. It inspires Homer to take them all to counseling.

It's weird. That's why I have more of a tolerance for stuff from early early seasons being left behind.

[Will Guide 21,360]

Okay, about what Fluttershy was saying in character as the 3 different Fashion Sales ponies, I had no idea what she was saying. All I got was that she was becoming someone she's not. I think one customer said it best: "Like, I don't understand any of that, so, like I don't care about it."

Rainbow Dash mentioned how Fluttershy has become a one-pony-show. If it was me putting on a Disney Performance, I'd attract a full-house, but fashion? No.

Overall, this episode left me more confused than Angry or laughing.

Although, hearing that Spike is great at Charades was a nice little moment. Wouldn't you agree, @Truffles?

Edited April 7, 2018 by We.

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

So far, I'm not liking what's going on. Everything about FITYMI is one continuity error.

1. FS knows how to assert herself. So why does she have to reaffirm the straw critics from Fame & Misfortune (and every criticism of her character leading up to S5) and have to do it all over again?
2. Fluttershy claimed she doesn't know enough about fashion to satisfy customers. She's incredibly knowledgeable of sewing and was taught how Rarity for You is organized. Hell, she helped open RfY. So why does the episode not acknowledge it?

[Jeric 46,850]

11 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

I'm thinking of an episode from season 1 of the simpsons. Bart and Lisa are both brats, Homer is the one who's ashamed of his family embarassing him at a get together, and Marge is a drunk. It inspires Homer to take them all to counseling.

It's weird. That's why I have more of a tolerance for stuff from early early seasons being left behind.

Simpsons may be the wrong counter example, if only because it is self-aware at how inconsistent its universes logic and character development is. FiM doesn't use that specific meta concept. Probably the biggest issue is that the joke wasn't all that funny, original, or needed. It is one thing to sacrifice prior character details if the joke is hilarious and unique. How many times have we seen the 'last one available' gag? I suspect that the writer simply did not know of the other examples of Fluttershy's previous sewing knowledge. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

Oh, and why is every Manehattanite the snobby New Yorker? New York's much more than that annoying stereotype.

22 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

I'm thinking of an episode from season 1 of the simpsons. Bart and Lisa are both brats, Homer is the one who's ashamed of his family embarassing him at a get together, and Marge is a drunk. It inspires Homer to take them all to counseling.

It's weird. That's why I have more of a tolerance for stuff from early early seasons being left behind.

5 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Simpsons may be the wrong counter example, if only because it is self-aware at how inconsistent its universes logic and character development is. FiM doesn't use that specific meta concept. Probably the biggest issue is that the joke wasn't all that funny, original, or needed. It is one thing to sacrifice prior character details if the joke is hilarious and unique. How many times have we seen the 'last one available' gag? I suspect that the writer simply did not know of the other examples of Fluttershy's previous sewing knowledge. 

To add to the convo, The Simpsons has almost no focus on continuity; most episodes are self-contained with no future dependency. In FIM, continuity's much more important, especially since the third season, and character development's vital to the series. So, contradicting it sticks out like a sore thumb in FIM.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[Will Guide 21,360]

6 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Oh, and why is every Manehattanite the snobby New Yorker? New York's much more than that annoying stereotype.

Yeah, I agree that there should have been more variety.

Edited April 7, 2018 by We.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

4 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Simpsons may be the wrong counter example, if only because it is self-aware at how inconsistent its universes logic and character development is. FiM doesn't use that specific meta concept. Probably the biggest issue is that the joke wasn't all that funny, original, or needed. It is one thing to sacrifice prior character details if the joke is hilarious and unique. How many times have we seen the 'last one available' gag? I suspect that the writer simply did not know of the other examples of Fluttershy's previous sewing knowledge. 

Well, I guess it's time for them to make another episode about fan complaints then

[gingerninja666 487]

Yeah. Seeing it myself. Not a fan of the gag at the start. I'm liking the episode so far following the pre-credits scene though.

11 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

So far, I'm not liking what's going on. Everything about FITYMI is one continuity error.

1. FS knows how to assert herself. So why does she have to reaffirm the straw critics from Fame & Misfortune (and every criticism of her character leading up to S5) and have to do it all over again?
2. Fluttershy claimed she doesn't know enough about fashion to satisfy customers. She's incredibly knowledgeable of sewing and was taught how Rarity for You is organized. Hell, she helped open RfY. So why does the episode not acknowledge it?

The episode did acknowledge both of those though. Rarity told Flutters that she's learned how to be assertive several times. Flutters can be assertive, but she IS out of her element here, especially with these types of obnoxious customers. Even if her knowledge of sewing was intact, she's not a fashion expert.

The episode acknowledges that she helped open RFY. Rare says that the raccoons stayed because Fluttershy convinced her it was a good idea. Twilight was the one who arranged all the systems for filing the outfits though.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

2 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

So. I wasn’t such a fan of today’s episode if I’m being honest. The main reason (I have many) for that being the conflict. 

Like. What normally happens in a story like this is that the main character feels the need to push themselves further because they weren’t doing a good enough job or because what they were doing just wasn’t working. But in this episode, it clearly shows that Fluttershy’s impressions at the very beginning were working out great. Everyone was satisfied, the shop seemed to be running well and she was doing a good job. So why does she feel the need to push it further if it isn’t needed? The episode literally never explains beyond saying that she just “went too far”. But if she went too far as the episode claims, then why does she point out early on in the episode that she thinks she should push it further? She literally says out loud that she doesn’t think she is going far enough. So it’s clear that pushing herself further was her decision. But why would she do this if what she was already doing was working? 

This.

I enjoyed the episode and it's gags overall, but the moment Fluttershy said she 'should push it further' I had to change my perspective on the episode and acknowledge it as nonsensical, which paid off as I could enjoy the rest of it even when the mane 6 stopped their duties to go to Manehattan... Didn't they all turn down Rarity because of their heavy schedules? Well, I wouldn't care, cartoon logic.

The Maud Couple was definitely better in my opinion but this one was enjoyable as well.

A few moments I liked a lot:

- Fluttershy's picnic with the sheltered animals.

- Rarity's haste and doubts once she heard the two mares talking about bullying shop ponies for fun.

- The racoons helping Fluttershy to step up with the first customer.

- Racoons charades with Spike! (Highlight of the episode).

- The firing scene (it was an obvious joke, but I enjoyed it all the same).

Edited April 7, 2018 by DonMaguz
Spelling.

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

And Fake It got itself a classic millennial stereotype: the "liker." Millennial are far more than someone who forcibly spouts "like" every other word.

Quote

FS: Oh, I think I need a new character.

Oh, no…

[gingerninja666 487]

I dont know why, but Fluttershy meakly pulling a magnifying glass out of nowhere to COUNT the number of threads on an outfit killed me.

[Truffles 2,033]

43 minutes ago, We. said:

Although, hearing that Spike is great at Charades was a nice little moment. Wouldn't you agree, @Truffles?

Indeed, especially after Rarity snubbed him in the list of ponies she was seeking help from. Interestingly, he specifically mentioned it as "dragon charades." I'm not sure what the difference between regular charades and dragon charades are, but I guess the raccoons are into it. XD

Actually, one could come up with a whole headcannon that dragon charades is their version of the game passed down to their friends the buffalo, and they being one with nature passed it on to various wildlife like the raccoons. I'm still not sure that explains a difference in style, though. lol.

[Thrond 3,263]

Wow, I was starting to get into this when it totally imploded. What happened here? 

• The first half of this is fairly cute, with the interactions between Rarity and Fluttershy and also the raccoons, but even then it's a little airless. There's a lot of scenes which fire through multiple jokes without really advancing the plot forward, which was tiring enough when I assumed Fluttershy was merely going to become overwhelmed. 
• The core gag here is funny at first, and I was getting excited when I thought the episode would be constantly introducing new personae, but then it just goes for the least interesting route possible and has her... go too far into character? What? Sometimes I feel this show doesn't think highly enough of its characters. 
• There's not even a clear line between how Fluttershy was using those characters and how mean they become. It seems like she's carefully considering her words for the right effect, rather than just being mean, and then all of a sudden... she's just being mean for its own sake, despite evidence that it's not working. Again, what?
• And the problem is that it's just not that funny once it gets the main identities out of the way. Soon as it starts building up to the climax, whatever creativity was seen in the earlier scenes just sort of vanishes. I could probably put up with the other issues if it remained funny, but it really doesn't, and it just stops making sense. 
• More importantly - and I think this is the big issue - the episode takes us out of Fluttershy's head right when sympathizing with her would be most crucial. Episodes like these - and lately, My Little Pony has done these stories a lot - frustrate me, because I don't know what the focus character is thinking. I don't know what feelings inspired Fluttershy to behave the way she does. She just becomes an object to move the plot along, a moral example instead of a person - and a really forced one at that.
• And again, I can deal with characters behaving weirdly and inconsistently, but either it needs to be funny ("Secrets and Pies"), or it needs to invite sympathy ("Newbie Dash"). I don't have much to say beyond that, because it's really the lack of either of those qualities which makes this so tedious. Even "The Mysterious Mare-Do-Well" was consistently focused on Rainbow Dash and didn't suddenly shift to the mane six in the final act. That's a worse episode, but there's an argument that it does a better job exploring Rainbow's thought process than this does. 
• Even the moral, which is apparently about just being yourself, doesn't fit, because Fluttershy was totally fine until she just suddenly wasn't. Would she have been fine if she had just been herself? I don't find that stinger to be convincing evidence. Is this episode trying to suggest that affecting a work persona will inevitably make you unpleasant? I don't buy that at all. I simply do not perceive the connection between the moral and the story, and besides, we already had parts of this expressed better in "Putting Your Hoof Down" and "The Saddle Row Review." 
• And it just happens so unceremoniously. Rarity fires all three personas, and suddenly Fluttershy's back and ready to apologize. I guess I shouldn't have expected nuance that late in the episode, after it had gone on for so long without it.
• It's weird to me that Rarity went to Rainbow Dash for help running the boutique before Fluttershy. Did she just figure Fluttershy's anxiety would be a problem? This gag setup still made me laugh, but the context is weird. 
• I don't read the comics, so I wasn't sure what the deal was with Coco. Last I saw her, she was in Rarity's employ. 
• You heard it here first, folks: Rarity is a psychic. 
• Credit for not having Starlight be the voice of reason, at least... but how about we just do away with plotlines this contingent on a "voice of reason" altogether? I'm so sick of it. Please, writers, put the characters first, just for once. I miss when this show did that. 

Score:

Entertainment: 4/10

Characters: 3/10

Themes: 5/10

Story: 2/10

Overall: 35/100

[gingerninja666 487]

People who say that characters are acting OOC seem to also act like the episode is treating it like it's normal. That confuses me honestly.

Shy being mean towards Smokey's family is treated like a "Holy shit" moment from EVERYONE.