S08:E20 - The Washouts

[gingerninja666 487]

57 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

A large part of the moral depends on the notion that Rainbow wants Scootaloo to be like her and can’t accept anything else. I found that hard to sympathize with. 

Because she seemed, at least at first, to be potentially more complicated than most antagonists, and I feel it was a missed opportunity not to at least show her maturing. 

 

Just now, Theanimationfanatic said:

1. Well, it's a cartoon, some things are going to be a little exaggerated. Plus, she chides herself for being a bit egotistical, which was a nice moment of maturity.

2. I'm sorry if I gave off the impression that I was attacking you for your opinion. That wasn't my intention. I was actually curious to hear your perspective. I respect your opinion.

 

You guys are both partly right. She was both concerned for Scoots AND was jealous. That's what I liked about Dash in this episode. She had multiple conflicting motivations. Both of them true.

[Thrond 3,263]

9 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

You guys are both partly right. She was both concerned for Scoots AND was jealous. That's what I liked about Dash in this episode. She had multiple conflicting motivations. Both of them true.

For sure, and the two motivations weren't entirely separate either. I guess I just didn't enjoy her jealousy enough to find that interesting. 

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

4 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

As I said, I understood and respected what this episode was going for. I just found some of Rainbow's behaviour seemed insensitive and thoughtless. 

Next time, try questions instead of counter-arguments. It sounded very much like you had a problem with me wanting Lightning Dust to reform. 

But I wasn't attacking you, I was genuinely curious about why wou wanted Lightning Dust to be reformed. Perhaps I could have worded it better, though.

5 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

 

You guys are both partly right. She was both concerned for Scoots AND was jealous. That's what I liked about Dash in this episode. She had multiple conflicting motivations. Both of them true.

That's why it works so well. Ego is a factor in her mindset, but deep down, Dash does care about Scootaloo and has good intentions, It's just that her ego slightly undermines her argument, and causes her point to be misconstrued by Scootaloo. 

Rainbow Dash over the show has learned to curb her ego, but she hasn't fully overcome it. 

[Cash In 22,305]

I really enjoyed this episode. The return of Lightning Dust didn't catch me off surprise - due to being informed of it prior. Despite that, it was certainly nice to see her return. In some ways this episode paralleled 'The Mysterious Mare Do Well', but it still did enough to feel unique.

Despite Rainbow Dash being a tad egotistical at the start of the episode, it developed into genuine concern for Scootaloo, which made me enjoy the episode more, as this was always a trait that Rainbow Dash displayed in the past. 

The other members of the Washouts proved to also be interesting characters and I wouldn't mind seeing them again - Especially Short Fuse, as I liked the gags revolving around his temper. The other gags were also fairly funny. Especially the one where Applejack tells the rest of the Mane 6 to inform her, if they catch Applebloom eating Bananas - Which did get a laugh out of me, addmitedly. 

[Sh Pie 65]

This was an amazing Rainbow Dash and Scootaloo focus episode. It blew my mind seeing Lightning Dust return, totally unexpected and bad*ss! I also enjoyed the comedic scene with Spitfire repeatedly yelling at Scootaloo in something akin to royal Canterlot voice, which was later humorously imitated by Lightning Dust. The moral was executed nicely as Rainbow Dash learned that keeping her honorary little sis out of harm is more important than getting all envious, maybe even a little jealous, about her idolizing anypony else. And Scootaloo learned a different kind of lesson, about the importance of safety. Sure, the Washouts' stunts are pretty cool, but they're trained bad*asses and Scootaloo is still just an inexperienced filly.

My only minor disappointment was Lightning Dust not getting redeemed yet. Couldn't Rainbow Dash or Twilight have given her the friendship speech just before she rocketed away? However, Lightning Dust and Rainbow Dash declared themselves rivals for life in that moment, which gives me hope. Rivals are somewhere between enemies and frenemies, a relationship founded on mutual respect for each other's talents despite not liking each other very much. It would be cool if they became frenemies, that kind of dynamic hasn't really been tackled in this show. It's actually quite common in real life as well as other franchises.

Overall, I think this episode is a highlight of the season so far.

[Allen 1,387]

It's great news that we have a Pegasus pony return in this episode since "Wonderbolts Academy" episode: Lightning Dust, for the Washouts' extreme flying stunt show!  I can't believe it's her again, and she flied passed those death traps really fast as an extreme flyer! I say "Wow!" for that. 

That part when Lightning Dust launched Scootaloo in a rocket strap for an untested stunt, Scootaloo was saved by Rainbow Dash in midair, and then Lightning Dust landed with her hoof in the middle of the ropes and got dragged off in the sky proclaiming a lifelong rivalry with Rainbow Dash.

The conclusion for this episode is the Washouts Fan Club is out of this and Scootaloo Fan Club is dedicated by Rainbow Dash in the Crusaders' clubhouse, which Scootaloo is surprised for her fan club. I'll rate this episode as a great episode too! 

I hope Lightning Dust will return in a good side with Rainbow Dash next time as forgiveness.

[Here No Longer 5,276]

Ugh. I knew not to be too hopeful. I knew I wouldn't like this episode the moment I began reading the plot summary. It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but it was pretty bad.

 

The Good

• Dashie actually acknowledges that she has an ego problem. Hey that must be something, right?
• Pretty valuable moral about parenting, in that you can't tell a child not to do something. That will only make them want to do it more.

The Bad

• I didn't have to even watch the episode to know what was going to happen. As has been pointed out, it was so  predictable that there's little point in watching it.
• Rainbow Dash may have admitted her ego problem, but my word was it BAD here, and it didn't get much better. It was everywhere, from her jealousy that Scootaloo dare have admiration for anyone that ISN'T her, to her reaction to Scootaloo's second fan club. I understand that she sort of drove the RD fan club out to start her own meeting, but her reaction to it was beyond excessive. I don't care about how it ended, because that's a point of discussion here also.
• I still don't like Scootaloo, and my issues with her weren't helped here. She was still being utterly self-centered. No excuse can justify her putting her desires over everyone else, and there's where RD actually had a point. It's just so reckless, so inconsiderate, and so stupid.
• The ending to me just seemed like suddenly "Everything's okay now" when it clearly wasn't. Scootaloo almost killed herself and RD went totally INSANE. Is there no reason to be upset about ANY of that? Well, I'm not sure about you, but there just seems there should be some kind of fallout here.

 

Overall, a 5/10 episode in my opinion. I knew this wouldn't be a good episode, I just knew it. The premise was okay, but the execution was quite flawed. To me it's another in the long list of season 8 episodes with this problem. Yet again, Season 8 doesn't fail to deliver on the promise that every other episode will end up a substandard mess. I'd say that I hope it will get better later on, but time and time again I say that and this happens. They release a fantastic episode, like The Road to Friendship, and then release one that is mediocre at best. That just seems to be the pattern here. With that perspective, I'm not too hopeful Season 8 will recover any ground in my mind.

 

 

 

[Senko 459]

6 hours ago, Dusk Noire said:

Ugh. I knew not to be too hopeful. I knew I wouldn't like this episode the moment I began reading the plot summary. It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but it was pretty bad.

 

The Good

• Dashie actually acknowledges that she has an ego problem. Hey that must be something, right?
• Pretty valuable moral about parenting, in that you can't tell a child not to do something. That will only make them want to do it more.

The Bad

• I didn't have to even watch the episode to know what was going to happen. As has been pointed out, it was so  predictable that there's little point in watching it.
• Rainbow Dash may have admitted her ego problem, but my word was it BAD here, and it didn't get much better. It was everywhere, from her jealousy that Scootaloo dare have admiration for anyone that ISN'T her, to her reaction to Scootaloo's second fan club. I understand that she sort of drove the RD fan club out to start her own meeting, but her reaction to it was beyond excessive. I don't care about how it ended, because that's a point of discussion here also.
• I still don't like Scootaloo, and my issues with her weren't helped here. She was still being utterly self-centered. No excuse can justify her putting her desires over everyone else, and there's where RD actually had a point. It's just so reckless, so inconsiderate, and so stupid.
• The ending to me just seemed like suddenly "Everything's okay now" when it clearly wasn't. Scootaloo almost killed herself and RD went totally INSANE. Is there no reason to be upset about ANY of that? Well, I'm not sure about you, but there just seems there should be some kind of fallout here.

 

Overall, a 5/10 episode in my opinion. I knew this wouldn't be a good episode, I just knew it. The premise was okay, but the execution was quite flawed. To me it's another in the long list of season 8 episodes with this problem. Yet again, Season 8 doesn't fail to deliver on the promise that every other episode will end up a substandard mess. I'd say that I hope it will get better later on, but time and time again I say that and this happens. They release a fantastic episode, like The Road to Friendship, and then release one that is mediocre at best. That just seems to be the pattern here. With that perspective, I'm not too hopeful Season 8 will recover any ground in my mind.

 

 

 

I think your description of Scootaloo applies to most teenagers (and managers) which she is so its not out of character really.

[Here No Longer 5,276]

2 hours ago, Senko said:

I think your description of Scootaloo applies to most teenagers (and managers) which she is so its not out of character really.

I think that isn't a free pass.

[Here No Longer 5,276]

57 minutes ago, Bas said:

But couldn't one claim that everypony has the right to express her own desires, as long as she isn't hurting anyone? Isn't it allowed to danger herself?

The problem is In that she's so willing to put herself in danger over something she decides she wants to do without considering how anyone else would feel. It's her right to do that, but it doesn't make it a good thing to do.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Dusk Noire
spelling errors.

[Dark Qiviut 22,396]

2 hours ago, Dusk Noire said:

The problem is In that she's so willing to put herself in danger over something she decides she wants to do without considering how anyone else would feel. It's her right to do that, but it doesn't make it a good thing to do.

1. Scoot joined the Washouts, because Lightning Dust claimed it was more inclusive to disabled pegasi like her, while the Wonderbolts shut them out. There's a reason why she went from discouraged to hopeful instantaneously in the middleground.
2. Dash was both caring for Scootaloo and let her ego get in the way, and it's the latter (with that tough love) that ultimately decided for her to join. The ego made her look disingenuous and Scoot feel more left out. Scoot wants to feel like she belonged, like an equal. The Washouts gave her that opportunity.
3. Twilight and Dash relented, because they trusted Scoot's judgment in deciding for herself whether Dust's stunt was precautioned or not. When she saw how poorly crafted and planned it is, she wanted to back out, but Dust manipulated her into taking part. Dash trusts her instincts, but also watched nearby in case something went wrong. When it did, she rescued her.

[epiccuttlefish 112]

I just watched this episode last night (I am way behind, I know), and there is one question that I could not stop thinking while watching it: Are child endangerment laws not a thing in Equestria? I'm sure that other episodes also raise this question. I wouldn't be surprised if every CMC episode would get someone arrested if it happened in real life, but this one is the most blatant. Someone (Lightning Dust) expresses intent to put a child (Scootaloo) in extreme danger (the rocket-powered scooter stunt), knowing that it is extremely dangerous, IN FRONT OF an authority who could, if not arrest her on the spot, then have her arrested (Princess Twilight Sparkle). 

[Kevin Tang 2,426]

She was very rude to Lyra and Bon Bon. 

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,594]

Definitely holds up as one of the best episodes of Season 8!

[Megas 27,624]

On 10/14/2018 at 10:12 AM, epiccuttlefish said:

I just watched this episode last night (I am way behind, I know), and there is one question that I could not stop thinking while watching it: Are child endangerment laws not a thing in Equestria? I'm sure that other episodes also raise this question. I wouldn't be surprised if every CMC episode would get someone arrested if it happened in real life, but this one is the most blatant. Someone (Lightning Dust) expresses intent to put a child (Scootaloo) in extreme danger (the rocket-powered scooter stunt), knowing that it is extremely dangerous, IN FRONT OF an authority who could, if not arrest her on the spot, then have her arrested (Princess Twilight Sparkle). 

Real world rules never apply to a fictional cartoon universe

[Senko 459]

1 hour ago, This Whomps said:

Real world rules never apply to a fictional cartoon universe

Even if you use the comics where they do to an extent the crusaders are probably young adults by this stage. Sure they're still drawn as fillies but they've been introduced a fair amount of inworld time ago (at a bare minimum the 8 awards at Twilight's school to Fluttershy implies nearly a year has passed since it opened plus half a dozen hearthwarming eve's) as school students and currently their special talent has gained enough recognition they're running camps for ponies without adult involvement, being consulted by parents about their childrens cutie marks and generally taking a lot of independant actions even though they're still in school. I'd say 16+ at this stage young enough their siblings/? have some involvement with their lives but old enough they're technically able to leave school and start earning a living with their own job if they wanted/were able to.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Senko

[Senko 459]

9 hours ago, Bas said:

If you consider the CMC at 16yo, how old do you consider somepony as Sandbar?

Like I said I put 16 at a minimum and that only because they are apparently still attending Cherilee's school but since that and Twilight's are the only two we know of in Ponyville they could be doing college/university level clases there for all I know (the chalkboard looked a lot more complex than I remember my high school day's  being). On the other hoof there was the fact they thought they could attend Twilight's school instead (and were told they knew the subject matter too well). So they could well be the same age as those attending Twilight's friendship school barring species differences like Ember.

[qwerE 96]

I enjoyed this episode. The Washouts were cool and had interesting personalities, and I was surprised to see that their leader was Lightning Dust. This comeback was totally unexpected, and I was pleasantly surprised. I love it when we get to see what happened to subcharacters in past episodes! The episode also had nice jokes and a cute ending, which made it all the more entertaining.

I was conflicted on what RD should do about Scootaloo, though. On one hand, decisions Scoot makes should be respected - On the other hand, it seems certain that she would get seriously hurt if no one stops her.

At first, I thought that Scoot should do whatever she wants.(wasn't sure about it, though) But after thinking about it for a while, I concluded that it wasn't okay to let a mere filly decide on something that may change her life forever, on her own. Although her opinion should not be ignored, I think it is okay to say that she should still get a permission from an adult to take part in something as dangerous as the Washout's show.

Edited December 30, 2018 by qwerE

[gingerninja666 487]

It's one of those episodes that almost BEGS for the CMC to be drawn as teenagers. If you think of the episode considering Scoots as a TEEN, not as a tiny filly, then it makes so much sense. Including the logic from Twi and later RD that Scoots should be allowed to make her own decisions.

[PacificGreen 1,163]

On 9/12/2018 at 5:19 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

• This episode gestures a lot at the idea that Rainbow should allow Scootaloo to make her own decisions, and makes several jokes at the expense of her apparent jealousy of the Washouts, but the ending and stated moral don't reflect that at all. I can complain about Lightning Dust all I want, but the biggest problem with that ending is that Rainbow is validated. She doesn't learn anything about letting Scootaloo have her own life and opinions, and they still completely dismiss the Washouts in the end. 
• That's why I think the jealousy stuff is a distraction. As stated in the ending, the most powerful idea here is that Rainbow's smothering was making Scootaloo feel impotent, and in certain scenes that pretty clearly reverberates. There's something to be said about Scootaloo's disability interfering with her admiration of Rainbow Dash, but contrary to what others have said, I find Rainbow's motivations here overly simplistic and self-centred. Of course she would favour the Wonderbolts, but too often she seems upset because the Washouts aren't the Wonderbolts, not because she's worried for Scootaloo's safety. And because we don't see her engaging in very much self-reflection on-screen, both sides of her motivation feel too simplistic. 

Upon lots of reflection, I think you articulated what kept me from completely enjoying this episode (and believe me, I tried pretty hard to truly enjoy this episode). It wasn't bad by any means, but I do feel like it was a bit lacking in those parts you mentioned.

The episode sort of seemed to imply that Scootaloo admiring the Washouts was the wrong choice ("Teach her what's safe and what isn't, like a good role model. Then hope she makes the right decisions." "But what if she chooses them over me?"), even though there are several lines where the characters are admiring the Washouts but not painted as in the wrong. And you can't blame them because, sure, what they're doing is dangerous, but as Twilight said, that basically is their whole shtick. There's nothing inherently wrong about putting on a stunt show. It only seems to be an issue because Lightning Dust is in it. So I'm definitely glad the episode acknowledges both sides of the conflict (especially since it seems that that has been a recurring problem in the last two seasons, where there have been multiple episodes where only the main characters are acknowledged as being in the right, even though the antagonists either have a point or should reasonably have a point *coughcough FluttershyLeansIn coughcough Fame&Misfortune coughcough SchoolDaze coughcough*). At the same time, though, it kinda felt like it wasn't sure how sympathetically the Washouts should have been portrayed- like, the show is acknowledging that the Washouts are pretty legit, but at the same time Rainbow had to be in the right in the end for the episode to work. So that kinda muddied up the moral a bit.

That said, I don't think I'd have the episode end up any other way. Having Lightning Dust be that reckless daredevil makes more sense from a character perspective than having her just get "redeemed" in one episode.

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, PacificGreen said:

Upon lots of reflection, I think you articulated what kept me from completely enjoying this episode (and believe me, I tried pretty hard to truly enjoy this episode). It wasn't bad by any means, but I do feel like it was a bit lacking in those parts you mentioned.

The episode sort of seemed to imply that Scootaloo admiring the Washouts was the wrong choice ("Teach her what's safe and what isn't, like a good role model. Then hope she makes the right decisions." "But what if she chooses them over me?"), even though there are several lines where the characters are admiring the Washouts but not painted as in the wrong. And you can't blame them because, sure, what they're doing is dangerous, but as Twilight said, that basically is their whole shtick. There's nothing inherently wrong about putting on a stunt show. It only seems to be an issue because Lightning Dust is in it. So I'm definitely glad the episode acknowledges both sides of the conflict (especially since it seems that that has been a recurring problem in the last two seasons, where there have been multiple episodes where only the main characters are acknowledged as being in the right, even though the antagonists either have a point or should reasonably have a point *coughcough FluttershyLeansIn coughcough Fame&Misfortune coughcough SchoolDaze coughcough*). At the same time, though, it kinda felt like it wasn't sure how sympathetically the Washouts should have been portrayed- like, the show is acknowledging that the Washouts are pretty legit, but at the same time Rainbow had to be in the right in the end for the episode to work. So that kinda muddied up the moral a bit.

Ironically, I actually came around to those qualities a bit on my second watch. It's clear that Rainbow's bad behaviour is supposed to be the point - because she has come to think of her relationship with Scootaloo a certain way, and because she has certain hopes for Scootaloo, she acts in ways which drive the kid away, because she's not considering others' feelings. And in turn, this pushes her towards people who don't have her best interests in mind, like Lightning Dust. I still wonder if this episode could have struck a better balance - to me, Dash's genuine concern still feels like jealousy - but the idea seems to be that Rainbow needs to learn how she can make Scootaloo feel comfortable and free in a safe environment. My only valid complaint, I think, is just that I think Rainbow was too annoying in this. It felt kinda like "Fame & Misfortune" if it was from Rumble's perspective, where you're just waiting for her to switch to the correct viewpoint. I do still think the episode's a little unfair to the Washouts, and that Dash maybe should have respected Scootaloo's freedom a little more, but I don't think either was necessary to convey this specific theme. 

Clueless as to what you thought the antagonists' good point was in "Fluttershy Leans in," though. 

1 hour ago, PacificGreen said:

That said, I don't think I'd have the episode end up any other way. Having Lightning Dust be that reckless daredevil makes more sense from a character perspective than having her just get "redeemed" in one episode.

I feel like you could have some of both. Starlight and Trixie still have problems even though they're ostensibly better people than they were before. I think reforming Lightning Dust to some extent would make her a more three-dimensional and interesting character; she's already relatively nuanced, but she's not given any chance to develop. If she's just gonna be an evil foil like she is here, then maybe I'm being selfish, but I never want to see her again. 

[PacificGreen 1,163]

6 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Clueless as to what you thought the antagonists' good point was in "Fluttershy Leans in," though

Yeah, I might have been unclear when I said this. I mean, obviously they didn't have any valid points in the episode proper, I just thought that, reasonably, they SHOULD have had some, what with being experts in their own fields and all, and it would have made a more interesting episode if they did. But they just didn't have any at all, and they were basically made into idiots in order for the plot to work. But maybe I'm just biased against that episode.

[Thrond 3,263]

4 hours ago, PacificGreen said:

Yeah, I might have been unclear when I said this. I mean, obviously they didn't have any valid points in the episode proper, I just thought that, reasonably, they SHOULD have had some, what with being experts in their own fields and all, and it would have made a more interesting episode if they did. But they just didn't have any at all, and they were basically made into idiots in order for the plot to work. But maybe I'm just biased against that episode.

Ahhh okay, yes, I agree. 

[gingerninja666 487]

11 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Ironically, I actually came around to those qualities a bit on my second watch. It's clear that Rainbow's bad behaviour is supposed to be the point - because she has come to think of her relationship with Scootaloo a certain way, and because she has certain hopes for Scootaloo, she acts in ways which drive the kid away, because she's not considering others' feelings. And in turn, this pushes her towards people who don't have her best interests in mind, like Lightning Dust. I still wonder if this episode could have struck a better balance - to me, Dash's genuine concern still feels like jealousy - but the idea seems to be that Rainbow needs to learn how she can make Scootaloo feel comfortable and free in a safe environment. My only valid complaint, I think, is just that I think Rainbow was too annoying in this. It felt kinda like "Fame & Misfortune" if it was from Rumble's perspective, where you're just waiting for her to switch to the correct viewpoint. I do still think the episode's a little unfair to the Washouts, and that Dash maybe should have respected Scootaloo's freedom a little more, but I don't think either was necessary to convey this specific theme. 

Clueless as to what you thought the antagonists' good point was in "Fluttershy Leans in," though. 

I feel like you could have some of both. Starlight and Trixie still have problems even though they're ostensibly better people than they were before. I think reforming Lightning Dust to some extent would make her a more three-dimensional and interesting character; she's already relatively nuanced, but she's not given any chance to develop. If she's just gonna be an evil foil like she is here, then maybe I'm being selfish, but I never want to see her again. 

From my read, I think the switch is supposed to be when Twilight drops the "She won't be the only one who gets hurt if that happens." line. Before that she's mostly jealous. After that line it seems to get to her a little bit, and she's mostly genuinely concerned.

When she goes to see Lightning she even says that her plan was to apologize to Scootaloo  for trying to make her stop liking the Washouts. So at that point in the story Dash was willing to at least accept the Washouts and accept that Scootaloo liked them. From there the only reason they both turn is because Lightning almost gets Scoot killed.

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

From my read, I think the switch is supposed to be when Twilight drops the "She won't be the only one who gets hurt if that happens." line. Before that she's mostly jealous. After that line it seems to get to her a little bit, and she's mostly genuinely concerned.

When she goes to see Lightning she even says that her plan was to apologize to Scootaloo  for trying to make her stop liking the Washouts. So at that point in the story Dash was willing to at least accept the Washouts and accept that Scootaloo liked them. From there the only reason they both turn is because Lightning almost gets Scoot killed.

Yeah, she becomes a lot less annoying at that point, if only because she's not tearing down posters anymore. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by AlexanderThrond