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Free Will

NightsEmber

By NightsEmber, Muffin

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NightsEmber

NightsEmber 2

Was posting on another forum and brought up fridge logic.  One of the examples of said logic i had waiting in case anyone asked was free will in equestria or their actual lack of most of it.


Out of all the episodes "Magical Mystery Cure" is the most blatant about them having little to no say about what they choose to do in life or "their destinies."  Mind this is simply the most blatant example but i had this topic rolling around in my head for along time before it aired.  What got me onto this line of thinking was simple, their names.  As you all know pony names are a pretty good symbol of what they do in life or has a direct relation to an aspect of it but how do their parents know what to name them?  My headcannon says that magic did it (Obviously) or every pony in equestria is secretly a psychic with prior knowledge of their foals lives.  


 


In this regard there are 2 options:


1. Their connection to magic subconsciously (or maybe not so subconsciously) hints at possible names around a certain topic that revolves around this destiny which the parents choose from. Then when the pony discovers this destiny it becomes symbolized by their cutie mark.


2. The parents choose the names themselves and the magic creates a destiny for them wound around the given name.


I usually go with option 1.  This implies that ponies really have very little choice in what direction they take with their lives the only saving grace being that they seem to love or at the very least tolerate what they do.


 


What do you guys think about it?


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Scootalove

Scootalove 10,684

I would think that the ponies still have their free will whether the parents decide on their destinies or not. They choose their name, but when it comes to finding their destiny and discovering their cutie marks in which it unlocks their talents they have the freedom along with the choice to do so. That's what I would put if there was another option.

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NightsEmber

NightsEmber 2

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I would think that the ponies still have their free will whether the parents decide on their destinies or not. They choose their name, but when it comes to finding their destiny and discovering their cutie marks in which it unlocks their talents they have the freedom along with the choice to do so. That's what I would put if there was another option.

I meant more along the lines of this is the starting point here and all the way over there is the finishing point.  You can take whatever route you want to inorder to get there as long as you cross the finish line. 

 

The show says that they get their cutie marks when they discover what their talent or true purpose in life is.  This implies that it's already there and the "coming of age" that is the cutie mark is simply them discovering what it is.

 

 

You think that the pony world is an example of hard determinism?

 

This has been a favorite topic of a group I'm in recently.

I would say that it's more fatalistic seeing as the cutiemark seems to be guiding them.  As to what's guiding that i have no idea seeing as they don't seem to show any higher authority than celestia so i usually just go with magic... Unless of course there's an alicorn for that.

 

Also for people who don't know what Hard Determinism or fatalistic is here's a definition:

 

Hard Determinism: Since everything (including human action) has a cause or causes that determine it to be what it is, there is no real freedom, only the illusion of freedom.  People are not morally responsible for their actions (as if they could have done otherwise).  Besides, we assume that training people to act in certain ways will influence (determine) future behavior.

 

Fatalism:  The doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

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Scootalove

Scootalove 10,684

I meant more along the lines of this is the starting point here and all the way over there is the finishing point.  You can take whatever route you want to inorder to get there as long as you cross the finish line. 

 

The show says that they get their cutie marks when they discover what their talent or true purpose in life is.  This implies that it's already there and the "coming of age" that is the cutie mark is simply them discovering what it is.

 

That's what I was saying, and I think the show's interpretation of cutie marks isn't confusing but it could be elaborated a little more.

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RainbowGlass

RainbowGlass 224

The world of Equestria was created along certain lines and ultimately by the choice of the creator Lauren Faust. Though this topic discussion is very interesting and completely viable, to apply such laws to a created world where characters and story are already preplanned can become hectic. We end up with more questions than answers. In the case of all characters, their characteristics were created before given a name.  Hypothetically, if this world and its inhabitants did exist in my opinion, their names are simply given to them upon birth just as they were upon winding up on the final drawing boards before animation. Concerning free will, the ponies and gang absolutely have free will. In lamer terms free will is simply the ability to make concious decisions, which they do in every episode even though yes a story was already written, i.e. Their destinies already written. Again, if this world did exist upon the basic laws of physics, thermodynamics, etc. They would have free will. Acquiring names is by birth (Rainbow Dash) Rainbow, due to her hair color. Dash, perhaps that was her family name just as Jack is for Apple Jack. However, this is a guess and any guess is a good as any. :)

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Anadu Kune

Anadu Kune 668

(edited)

Ive heard many say the presence of destiny immediately negates the possibility of free will. I don't think this to be the case. I think one of the big reasons people do this is because it has become common to use the words fate and destiny interchangeably. However there is a difference between the two.

Destiny: Predetermined events in ones life that they take an active coarse in shaping

Fate: Predetermined events that happen because of or in spite of ones actions.

It is through the choice and self discovery of the ponies as individuals that they fulfill their destinies. If nothing else I think Magical Mystery Cure actually showed how important they were as individuals, that their choices and personalities could and did shape things. If the mane six were nothing but the puppets of an outside force(destiny or fate) then the switch in MMC would not have mattered. They simply would have switched places and resumed the roles imposed on them as the outside force had dictated. However this is not what happened. Their personality and agency remained and their ineptitude and choices were causing havoc. Rarity's conscious decision to pattern the sky caused the weather to be damaging to the ponies. They were forced into the position of another pony and as such had all their memories and cutie mark, but they retained their agency. It was Twilight's very agency which made the switch possible. Twilight through a conscious decision casted a spell which switched the destinies(life paths) of the ponies. What is shown in MMC is that choices do have consequence and that the ponies through all the cumulative choices they had made up till that point had become very important to the general structure of things around them.


I personally use the word attractors to describe destiny. These attractors pull or attract the past towards a virtual future. The things that makes these virtual futures become actual futures is a causal agent. We as individuals are always moving towards a virtual future and if we make the right steps and truly explore ourselves we may reach one of these attractors. However there are many causal agents and as such one's destiny or even collective destiny can be altered. There may also be competing attractors. A example from another piece of fiction the struggle between the light and dark side of the force in Star Wars. In Return of the Jedi The emperor demonstrates the ability to predict the future and does so with a startling accuracy. However The actions of Luke Skywalker a causal agent negate his destiny. The virtual future the emperor saw never came to pass. This is supported by Yoda when he states "always in motion is the future". There are tons of attractors or destinies competing although not all of them are in direct competition. Destiny is shaped by the individual and can be fulfilled or negated by them.
 

Edited by Anadu Kune
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Tetrakemy

Tetrakemy 221

Lets talk about all of the Ironic names the ponies have. I am sure at least some of the adult ponies might had realized it before. However, I do not see how the younger ones have or why it has been brought up.

 

The ponies do not have free will at all. At least when it comes to what they will be doing for the rest of their lives. The names the parents give them dictates what they will do in life.

 

For example, Scootaloo = scooter. Diamond Tiara = Her only talent is wearing a thing on her head lol.

 

AppleJack = apples, Pinky pie is pink, Rainbow Dash has a rainbow mane and she is fast which = the dash part.

 

Nearely all of the ponies have ironic names to them that have a direct cause to their special talent which dictates what they will do in life.

 

So what heppens if lets say. I was a pony. Got married to like...I dunno. Dash, trixy or someone. Then had a kid and decided to name my child STORMAGEDDON! Dark lord of All!

 

Does that mean the kid will have weather powers and be evil wben they grow up?

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Ribbonfree

Ribbonfree 2,383

No, there is already a thread on this and it was decided that parents can see into the future to see what their child would be.

 

That's what that thread concluded? Not what I would have chosen as an answer but alrighty then. :lol:

 

Personally I think the magic of the land just sort of gives the ponies a lot of random inklings that are prophetic and or relevant to the harmony and balance and stuff. It's behind the musical numbers, the naming, and the nature of cutie makrs.

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BlinkZ

BlinkZ 1,151

Lets talk about all of the Ironic names the ponies have. I am sure at least some of the adult ponies might had realized it before. However, I do not see how the younger ones have or why it has been brought up.

 

The ponies do not have free will at all. At least when it comes to what they will be doing for the rest of their lives. The names the parents give them dictates what they will do in life.

 

For example, Scootaloo = scooter. Diamond Tiara = Her only talent is wearing a thing on her head lol.

 

AppleJack = apples, Pinky pie is pink, Rainbow Dash has a rainbow mane and she is fast which = the dash part.

 

Nearely all of the ponies have ironic names to them that have a direct cause to their special talent which dictates what they will do in life.

 

So what heppens if lets say. I was a pony. Got married to like...I dunno. Dash, trixy or someone. Then had a kid and decided to name my child STORMAGEDDON! Dark lord of All!

 

Does that mean the kid will have weather powers and be evil wben they grow up?

Simple , it's easier to market that way.  though man they backed flutterSHY  into a corner with her name.  Applebloom at least wont have an apple related cutie mark...-_- if we ever see them get them..probably never going to see that episode.

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