S05:E13 - Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?

[Music Chart Fan 818]

We have no idea what Luna did prior to the flashback we saw.  She may have caused a lot of suffering in some shape or form before she was confronted by Celestia and turned into Nightmare Moon.  This could only make Luna feel more guilty, since it was technically before her full transformation.

 

 

Yeah, fair enough, although Luna does specifically say that she created the Tantabus "to punish myself for the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon", and right after says that it was "to make sure I never forgave myself for how much Equestria suffered because of me", which might be seen in the context of her immediately previous statement to refer to suffering because of her transformation into Nightmare Moon. I'll admit I'm not sure what Luna might have done pre-transformation that would have caused Equestria in general to suffer, considering that it seems to me like even Luna as Nightmare Moon did very little to interrupt the day-to-day lives of the average citizens of Equestria. But, of course, since Luna seems to be inflating her relatively minor misdeeds in her mind and feeling overly guilty about them, any pre-transformation misdeeds would be included in that.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,294]

This episode did have one clear issue going into it, speed. The pace at which it was going was rather crazy, everything seem to zoom by to get the point across. It is clear they had tons of things to fit into this episode as it was a deep topic to dive into, sheer guilt and even self punishment. I don't blame the writers for this as they have a limited amount of time to work with, but a mid season finale would have done wonders to help this along. Seeing Luna's guilt be explored more in depth would have made it even more impactful, though I still like how it was done.

 

Beyond this, I loved the dream sequence at the end. The dreams for the mane 6 were actually quite lame and predictable to be honest, but again, I think they had to get the plot moving along for the point. I also loved this particular subject and I still think it was done well. The despair that Luna had was very convincing and I felt sorrow for her. 

 

This was episode was good and not what I expected, so I enjoyed it quite a bit, but mostly the last half is what I enjoyed most. Again, the pacing during the first half and the dreams of the other ponies felt overwhelming in their swiftness, even the very beginning felt incredibly fast. These two things bog the episode down a bit but I still consider it to be quite good because the positives outweigh the negatives for me. 

 

Also, this was epic:

 

Well played DHX, well played.

[melody5697 195]

Yeah, fair enough, although Luna does specifically say that she created the Tantabus "to punish myself for the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon", and right after says that it was "to make sure I never forgave myself for how much Equestria suffered because of me", which might be seen in the context of her immediately previous statement to refer to suffering because of her transformation into Nightmare Moon. I'll admit I'm not sure what Luna might have done pre-transformation that would have caused Equestria in general to suffer, considering that it seems to me like even Luna as Nightmare Moon did very little to interrupt the day-to-day lives of the average citizens of Equestria. But, of course, since Luna seems to be inflating her relatively minor misdeeds in her mind and feeling overly guilty about them, any pre-transformation misdeeds would be included in that.

I firmly believe that the flashback potion lied, so there's no telling what actually happened. And I think she was possessed when she became Nightmare Moon (she let it happen, though) and the thing that possessed her spent a thousand years telling her she's a terrible pony and making her think she'd hurt ponies more than she really had.

[UnknownFry 169]

Pretty great episode all things considered and it drove the point home by using the absurdity as means to do that. Excellent characterization of Luna with one of the better morals seen on the show so far. Excellent visual gags and references along the way while also getting the ponies in Ponyville to help out towards the end there.

[Yellow Diamond 7,564]

I'm glad Big McIntosh is finally confirmed as the definitive pretty sailor soldier of dreams. (It's neat how they even emulated Sailor Moon's original transformation theme too!)

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

There's something people seem to be forgetting about Luna's guilt, it wasn't just the bad things she actually did as Nightmare Moon. It's also what she attempted to do and what she could no longer do because she got herself banished.

 

She tried to murder the mane six multiple times, as well as trying to kill her sister and cause the apocalypse, if someone tried to kill you and failed you wouldn't treat that like nothing just because they didn't succeed.

 

We also see Equestria a thousand years after she was banished, but back then Luna was one of the only two alicorns and an element bearer. She had very important responsibilities as a ruler of Equestrian. Even if Luna didn't think ponies appreciated her, that doesn't mean she didn't have important royal duties that would cause chaos if they stopped being done. Who knows how ponies reacted to one of their immortal rulers suddenly disappeared. We know for a fact there's at least one thing that Luna can do that Celestia can't, which is protect ponies dreams. It wasn't like Luna just threw a temper tantrum and then got over it, she forced Celestia to suddenly adapt to ruling equestria alone. I'd say that Celestia couldn't use the elements anymore after the trauma of banishing her own sister, but that would be veering into serious speculation territory.

 

 

Loved the episode, by the way. Though the end would have had more impact if it were a bit less rushed.

[Ruddboy Olaf 10,627]

I think I've found my favorite episode of Season 5,so far.

 

 

Edit: Anyone else reminded of the Rainbow Monkeys from KND?

Edited July 13, 2015 by Mystery

[Shoobedoo 44]

Awesome episode! We get the 2 best alicorn princesses. And some interesting dreams.  

[Jangocoolguy 433]

"Previously on Ponyball Z..."
Winter must be pretty short around here
Deep down, Gummy's more sinister than we realize...
"Dear Princess Luna, today we learned--oh wait, we're over that now."
Anyone else a little hot under the collar hearing Twilight yawn after "Lollypop Chainsaw"?
Oh please Spike. You're a nigh-useless sidekick and you know it.
It's official: the writers just hate Celestia!
A shared dream? But I left my dream totem at home!
DAMM-IT, AJ! GET A LIFE OUTSIDE OF APPLES!!
Pinkie Pie dreams of previous episodes?
LyBon! LyBon! Alone in the world is a little LyBon! Also..."Best Friends" my flank!
"Okay, you can have my daughter!"
LMAOOTF right now!
"Foreward my steed! To Pandering!" "NYA-NYAN!"
Go figure Fluttershy can control dream monster Angel better than the real one
Scootaloo used Gust! It's super Effective!
I guess money CAN solve anything...
 

 

 

This episode may be even MORE fanservice-y than "Slice of Life!"

There were Changelings, Flutterbat, Power Ponies, Nightmare Moon, Rainbow Power Ponies, pets (Hi Tank! Didn't expect to see you again so soon!), Heroic Spike, backgrounds from almost everywhere the show has been, and minor characters getting in on the action!

Yes, it could've used some (much) better pacing...but I still loved it!

If anything, I love this episode for Alicorn Mac

Edited July 13, 2015 by Jangobadass

[Truffles 2,033]

On 7/12/2015 at 7:18 PM, melody5697 said:

I firmly believe that the flashback potion lied, so there's no telling what actually happened. And I think she was possessed when she became Nightmare Moon (she let it happen, though) and the thing that possessed her spent a thousand years telling her she's a terrible pony and making her think she'd hurt ponies more than she really had.

 

I think this might be likely as well - namely the nightmares on the moon filled her with false memories of her time as Nightmare Moon as a form of torment since they had nothing better to do. The only problem I have with this is why wouldn't Celestia have corrected any misconceptions about her time as a villain? It would mean Celestia has never spoken of Luna's transformation and attempt to usurp her with her sister for the entire run of the series. I suppose it's possible, but yikes.... Not a very close sibling relationship if that's the case...

 

I thought this episode was OK. I pretty much agree with everyone who has stated the resolution/change of heart in Luna about herself was too quick. A lot of the repetitive dialogue could have been cut to make more room. It needed more of an "Aha!" moment at the end since this torment for Luna has been going on for a while. For example, they just wrapped up the CMC dream arc and that could have been tied into this to help Luna clear her mind. But the CMC didn't even get a speaking role here. Others have brought up how Spike was beating himself up in "Equestria Games" for letting everypony down, so that could have been included as well. For that matter, all of the Mane 6 have been disappointments at some point in the series, and all of those could have been revisited to help Luna see the light. Doing all of this and having the ponies telling Luna they all forgave her long ago would have made the ending more convincing for me.

 

 

Anyway, it's still a fun episode for all the visual stuff that goes on and some of the character insights but, arg... It's like the third act of "Inspiration Manifestation" all over again in many ways, too....

 

BTW: Who is this mystery pony running from Filthy Rich's demon house:

 

 

Could she been Diamond Tiara's long lost mother? 

EDIT: ANSWER: NO. XD

Edited January 2, 2021 by Truffles
Answered my own speculation, lol

[melody5697 195]

There's something people seem to be forgetting about Luna's guilt, it wasn't just the bad things she actually did as Nightmare Moon. It's also what she attempted to do and what she could no longer do because she got herself banished.

 

She tried to murder the mane six multiple times, as well as trying to kill her sister and cause the apocalypse, if someone tried to kill you and failed you wouldn't treat that like nothing just because they didn't succeed.

 

We also see Equestria a thousand years after she was banished, but back then Luna was one of the only two alicorns and an element bearer. She had very important responsibilities as a ruler of Equestrian. Even if Luna didn't think ponies appreciated her, that doesn't mean she didn't have important royal duties that would cause chaos if they stopped being done. Who knows how ponies reacted to one of their immortal rulers suddenly disappeared. We know for a fact there's at least one thing that Luna can do that Celestia can't, which is protect ponies dreams. It wasn't like Luna just threw a temper tantrum and then got over it, she forced Celestia to suddenly adapt to ruling equestria alone. I'd say that Celestia couldn't use the elements anymore after the trauma of banishing her own sister, but that would be veering into serious speculation territory.

 

 

Loved the episode, by the way. Though the end would have had more impact if it were a bit less rushed.

It didn't look to me like Nightmare Moon tried to kill the Mane 6. The only thing she did to them in the Everfree Forest that could've killed them was the first thing. It seemed more like she was just trying to scare them away. But I guess you are right about the rest.

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

It didn't look to me like Nightmare Moon tried to kill the Mane 6. The only thing she did to them in the Everfree Forest that could've killed them was the first thing. It seemed more like she was just trying to scare them away. But I guess you are right about the rest.

Thanks, I was just offering some thoughts I hadn't seen anyone discussing here. It's sort of a debatable topic.

 

Dropping the mane six off a cliff was something that could have quite easily killed them if there weren't two pegasi in the group capable of carrying them.

 

Nightmare Moon had no reason to think the manticore wouldn't be able to kill them after she panicked it with that thorn.

 

The spooky trees and the shadow bolts didn't seem intended to harm them, just to try and stop them from reaching the elements.

 

It's possible when Nightmare Moon charged at Twilight she was going to attack her, but who knows what she was intending to do there.

[melody5697 195]

Thanks, I was just offering some thoughts I hadn't seen anyone discussing here. It's sort of a debatable topic.

 

Dropping the mane six off a cliff was something that could have quite easily killed them if there weren't two pegasi in the group capable of carrying them.

 

Nightmare Moon had no reason to think the manticore wouldn't be able to kill them after she panicked it with that thorn.

 

The spooky trees and the shadow bolts didn't seem intended to harm them, just to try and stop them from reaching the elements.

 

It's possible when Nightmare Moon charged at Twilight she was going to attack her, but who knows what she was intending to do there.

They could've just ran away from the manticore. Plus, I think that manticore might be the one from the Journal of the Two Sisters. (I won't say any more about him because I don't want to spoil the story.) I guess it's unlikely that he would still be alive after over a thousand years, but we don't know much about manticores.

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

They could've just ran away from the manticore. Plus, I think that manticore might be the one from the Journal of the Two Sisters. (I won't say any more about him because I don't want to spoil the story.) I guess it's unlikely that he would still be alive after over a thousand years, but we don't know much about manticores.

 

I doubt it was that same manticore, but that would be sort of tragic. 

 

They could've run away, from the manticore... they could have also left the forest after she broke the cliff. But whether or not they could've run away, the manticore still tried to kill or at least hurt them while they were there. That lunge it made with it's claws nearly took Rarity's head off. It's possible she was trying to get them to leave, but that seems a bit unlikely and still had a good chance of hurting them seriously.

Edited July 13, 2015 by EquineWhoDoesStuff

[CM Pony 30]

LOL Pinkie Pie is awfully hyper for being so tired.

 

That is what made this episode for me.  I mean, I liked a lot about it.  I enjoyed the dream world and seeing the different "Dream Warriors" the ponies made themselves into.  I did kind of wish I could have seen more... maybe looked and saw what sort of dream powers more ponies would have enjoyed, but that would have detracted from the purpose of the story and that was, of course, Luna forgiving herself.

 

But Pinkie being hyper and well, just being Pinkie, was what I liked the most.  I loved the cartwheels.  I love how she thought she would never fall asleep and did right away.  I just loved Pinkie in the story.  

 

Not my favorite of the year, but enjoyable.

[melody5697 195]

I think this might be likely as well - namely the nightmares on the moon filled her with false memories of her time as Nightmare Moon as a form of torment since they had nothing better to do. The only problem I have with this is why wouldn't Celestia have corrected any misconceptions about her time as a villain? It would mean Celestia has never spoken of Luna's transformation and attempt to usurp her with her sister for the entire run of the series. I suppose it's possible, but yikes.... Not a very close sibling relationship if that's the case...

 

I thought this episode was OK. I pretty much agree with everyone who has stated the resolution/change of heart in Luna about herself was too quick. A lot of the repetitive dialogue could have been cut to make more room. It needed more of an "Aha!" moment at the end since this torment for Luna has been going on for a while. For example, they just wrapped up the CMC dream arc and that could have been tied into this to help Luna clear her mind. But the CMC didn't even get a speaking role here. Others have brought up how Spike was beating himself up in "Equestria Games" for letting everypony down, so that could have been included as well. For that matter, all of the Mane 6 have been disappointments at some point in the series, and all of those could have been revisited to help Luna see the light. Doing all of this and having the ponies telling Luna they all forgave her long ago would have made the ending more convincing for me.

 

 

Anyway, it's still a fun episode for all the visual stuff that goes on and some of the character insights but, arg... It's like the third act of "Inspiration Manifestation" all over again in many ways, too....

 

BTW: Who is this mystery pony running from Filthy Rich's demon house:

 

frwife.png

 

Could she been Diamond Tiara's long lost mother?

Actually I wasn't talking about false memories. I was talking about telling her she's horrible for the things she did but saying it's more horrible than it really is. It's hard to explain, so I'll once again use my life as an example. Very bad stuff happened to me when I was little and I did some hurtful things to people and I was bullied a lot and my dad never told me he loved me. That alone would've caused some problems. But starting when I was 11, whenever I did anything bad my dad blew it way out of proportion. When he found out about things I did that hurt people, he told me how horrible it was and made me feel even worse than I already did. When I didn't do my homework for a few years because I was totally miserable, he told me I was ruining his life. When I attempted suicide for the first time, he showed me the hospital bills and told me he was gonna go bankrupt because of me. All I ever heard was how horrible I was. Nobody ever told me anything good about myself. I believed I was a horrible person. Now take that and imagine it a hundred times worse and you'll get some idea of what I'm talking about.

I doubt it was that same manticore, but that would be sort of tragic.

 

They could've run away, from the manticore... they could have also left the forest after she broke the cliff. But whether or not they could've run away, the manticore still tried to kill or at least hurt them while they were there. That lunge it made with it's claws nearly took Rarity's head off. It's possible she was trying to get them to leave, but that seems a bit unlikely and still had a good chance of hurting them seriously.

If you tell me how to do that thingy where you hide a spoiler, I can tell you why I think it could be the same manticore. Or maybe that should be discussed through private messages since it's off-topic.

Once again, I'm sorry if I'm bothering anybody by talking about my feelings and comparing them to Luna's.

Edited July 13, 2015 by melody5697

[Cloud Strife 928]

The quick resolution and exposy dialogue was pretty noticeable, but the high emotion that was reached from Luna, the concept itself, the humor, and the surrealism were definite plusses and made the former things forgivable for me. Honestly I think it was them trying to cram a big plot in 22 minutes that made it suffer more than bad writing in itself, since characters were spot on and the episode clearly had a lot of heart behind it. I'd forward the notion others in this thread are of this would've been better as a 2 parter, with a huge climax splitting the two.

 

So yeah, I really liked this episode. Luna was really strong here, and no character felt out of place. They're also really emphasizing that other ponies are important this season, something I expected them to keep to Slice of Life if I'm honest. I like that, though, since it gives this season a unique world building flavor.

[Smurfenstein 94]

The only thing keeping me from absolutely loving this episode was the rushed resolution. Everything prior to it was amazing though.

 

The pacing was there, and we got not just an appearance from Luna, but actual character development. She forces herself to have bad dreams to punish herself for what she did as Nightmare Moon? That's tragic.

 

As far as the shared dream goes:

 

Allicorn Big Macintosh? Hilarious.

 

Giant Derpy? Sure, why not?

 

Lyra and Bon Bon? Come on, DHX/Hasbro. Now we know you're encouraging shipping.

 

And was I the only one expecting a "Great, wickering stallions!" from Doctor Whooves?

 

All in all, a great episode.

[Galen 1,353]

The only thing keeping me from absolutely loving this episode was the rushed resolution. Everything prior to it was amazing though.

 

The pacing was there, and we got not just an appearance from Luna, but actual character development. She forces herself to have bad dreams to punish herself for what she did as Nightmare Moon? That's tragic.

 

As far as the shared dream goes:

 

Allicorn Big Macintosh? Hilarious.

 

Giant Derpy? Sure, why not?

 

Lyra and Bon Bon? Come on, DHX/Hasbro. Now we know you're encouraging shipping.

 

And was I the only one expecting a "Great, wickering stallions!" from Doctor Whooves?

 

All in all, a great episode.

 

Did you spot Vampire Fluttershy there as well?

 

I'm actually surprised Discord didn't turn up just to troll some more but that would've been bad for the character development in this episode, which was really nice.

 

One thing I'm noting about this new season is how it's consistent with previous ones, bringing back stuff that we as the audience may or may not have forgotten about. Honestly speaking, this may be turning out to be the best season of the entire show thus far.

[Syndar 66]

Awesome Episode, although the final reminded me of something else...let me think, what happen if i join together these two video?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8qNVEc-oZo

 

 

Yes Everypony, the Evangelion ending!!!! XD

 

Ok Joke apart, i loved this episode, Princess Luna is so dark and introspective, hard with herself for the actions she have committed in Nightmare Moon's form and punish herself for not forget that. And with the help of own friends have understood who she is more stronger than she can imagine. I loved also the little fanservice present, LyrBon, Princess Big Mac (sounds like a McDonald's Hamburger "hey dude! can i Have a Princess Big Mac Menù maxi, please coke without ice"), big Derpy, Spike-Hero, it was all great.

And this is the time when almost fell off the chair laughing

 

 

brrrrrrr creepy XD

 

But one question, i don't understand what princess Luna has done in the Nightmare Moon's form. At the start of the fourth season, in the potion's vision, we can see princess luna's transformation, she fight against her sister and being banished on the moon, i think this is long less than one hour. Even she come back from the moon in ponyville she doesn't do much, apart scare the ponies of the village for, how much, an evening? a night?

I understand why Princess Luna blame herself, because she know what could be do with her rage, but apart Celestia, nopony know the existence of Nightmare Moon, in theory. She has no time to do really something, or hurt somepony. Why exist this folklore around the character of Nightmare Moon? Exist a Nightmare Night, probably some scary legends, and a book who predicted her return. that's what I can not understand, I hope I explained myself with my bad English XD

[LHfunk 422]

I'm still not sure where people are getting that the ending was rushed. It felt fine to me, because there wasn't really anything else that could happen. Was she supposed to take forever to forgive herself? Was she supposed to learn her lesson gradually? Was she supposed to finally forgive herself? I don't get it. And as for the two-parter thing, that sounds like a bad idea to me. How would it work? Would it be that Luna can't forgive herself and the Tantibus escapes? Wasn't it hinted that they couldn't stop it then? Would all of Ponyville wake up and they have to try again? I can't see how it can work. It would probably end up being dragged out and a lot more repetitive and maybe a little boring.

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

https://mlpforums.com/blog/2414/entry-17373-the-flower-with-the-flute-in-do-princesses-dream-of-magical-sheep-is-peter-gabriel/

 

This reference will probably go over too many peoples head.

[ponieslover394862 1]

Amazing episode ! Really liked it

[Sheheuwi9sidufud7eiwkn3 75]

Man, I loved this episode. I haven't cracked up as much since slice of life. I was already snickering after Dash's "nightmare" and then I practically died when the whole princess big mac thing happened.

 

I do have to agree that there was no "leading into" the resolution, it did feel like the mane six are helping the town fight a giant cloud one minute, next moment twi was talking to luna about forgiving herself. This episode did have a good lesson though. 

[Truffles 2,033]

Actually I wasn't talking about false memories. I was talking about telling her she's horrible for the things she did but saying it's more horrible than it really is.

 

Ah ok. When I read Music Chart Fan's post the question was asked in there what did Luna really do to deserve all this punishment and saw your reply, it seemed like it was along the same lines as what I was thinking. But I did misunderstand since I felt like all they could do is put false memories into her because if I were in her hooves, I wouldn't give a hoot what some entity possessing me tried to tell me about myself since I wouldn't have any respect for anything they said since it was them who got me into that mess of becoming Nightmare Moon in the first place. I do feel bad you had to go through that in your own past; I cannot imagine what it would be like.

 

Back to Luna punishing herself: One other explanation could be that even though she didn't really do anything terrible other than (maybe) try to kill the Mane 6 is perhaps the two sisters swore an oath to protect all of ponydom when they ascended to the throne - thus becoming a mother figure to everypony. So her trying to murder our six heroines is tantamount to filicide (yes that's actually the term for human parent->child murder - how ironic) and she can't forgive herself for it.