More character development for the villains?

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

IMO this is one tradition of children's cartoons that MLP should challenge: shallow antagonists. With the exception of Discord and Trixie, most of the villains have appeared only once and we learned almost nothing about them. Why was Gilda such a jerk? What's Diamond Tiara's problem? What happened to Chrysalis and who/what is she anyway?

 

Your thoughts? And which villains do you think should return with more depth in Season 4?

[An Old Head 4,815]

I think only a few antagonists should be turned into good characters, just to allow the moral that a bad person can always become good if you give them a chance, or stand up for yourself, or fill in blank. The rest, well, they'd only come back to quench interests about their background and the like.

 

Antagonists that don't, or shouldn't, return are the ones that provide lessons that go "Don't do what this person does". Flim & Flam's were "Don't play dirty." Gilda's was "Don't disdain an old friend's new friends." Lightning Dust's was "Don't get in over your head." Garble's was "Don't use peer pressure to get others into rough schemes." Etc. It doesn't apply for Discord because, well, you can't go "Don't start bending the fabric of space." Trixie is an omission, though - it was easier to get another moral out of her than it would be for any other villain.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Flipturn ツ

[Leafeon 2,701]

I'm going to say most of the ones that aren't in the premieres or finales.

 

Why?

 

Well, the mane 6 seem to not generally be in the good for these things. For example Iron Will; trying to make a living off of self acceptance courses. Defined as a monster. Gilda trying to just be with her friend again. Run out of town.

 

And all the other ones, basically. Especially Lightning Dust.

[Shanks 10,811]

I want to see King Sombra return because he has the most untapped potential as a villain, based on what little we know about him he is the most evil, vicious and cruel villain introduced so far but the question is what made him this way? Exactly how did he become king and who ruled the Crystal Empire before he took the throne?

 

I want to see Gilda return in large part because although I acknowledge that she acted like a jerk part of the reason for that was because Pinkie Pie couldn't take a hint and give her and Rainbow Dash some space and yet because of that she is judged as a "false friend" and is shoved aside while Pinkie Pie gets off scott free.

[Klopp 2,050]

Unfortunately that's the problem with enjoying a little girls show. Little girls don't particularly care about the villains backstories, so there is no need for them to give them one. I keep hoping they will add a little more depth here and there, but they just aren't ever going to go as deep as a show designed for older audiences.

 

I would certainly love to see the villains back stories though, where they are from, what their species is like, why they do what they do. I'm very curious about Chrysalis and the Changelings, but chances are we won't learn more about them. I'd like to hope we will though, just have to wait for season 4 and find out. Klopp exits the Tardis. Discord is another one I'd love to learn more about. Sure he has already had 2 episodes, but all we know about him is that he enjoys chaos. I wanna know why he enjoys chaos, damnit! D:

 

So far I have generally been pleased with the villains though, except for one. King Sombra was a major disappointment to me, and the whole crystal pony episodes in general were very lacking in entertainment value. So long as they don't have another villain like that again, I will be satisfied, but if they actually do decide to go into some more depth, I would definitely be more than pleased. :3

 

Unfortunately though, there is only so much they can do with 22 minutes per episode. =(

Edited March 20, 2013 by Sir Klopp

[Betez 1,734]

I've heard talk that Chrysalis may be making a return sometime during season 4. I'm sure one day Gilda will make a return as well. However, I have no idea if Sombra will ever make a reappearance. Honestly, I kinda doubt that he will.

[An Old Head 4,815]

I'm going to say most of the ones that aren't in the premieres or finales.

 

Why?

 

Well, the mane 6 seem to not generally be in the good for these things. For example Iron Will; trying to make a living off of self acceptance courses. Defined as a monster. Gilda trying to just be with her friend again. Run out of town.

 

And all the other ones, basically. Especially Lightning Dust.

 

I agree with Iron Will, actually - but I don't think Gilda was "trying to just be with her friend again". She was being a real douche to everyone when she was walking around town, shouting at Fluttershy, and then threatening Pinkie Pie at the party. None of that is just trying to be with her friend again. She was damn irritable.

[Scootalove 10,685]

I think they might not work on more character development for the villains just yet. Since, some backstories that villains have are usually take over the world or exact revenge on someone. Trixie, Discord, Nightmare Moon, and Lightning Dust all had agendas as villains. Trixie's agenda was to outshine and be the best pony at magic, Discord's was to bend the rules of reality using chaos, Nightmare Moon's agenda was to exact revenge on Celestia for banishing her inside of the moon, and well Lightning's agenda was to basically be the best flyer at any cost possible.

[Orablanco Account 3,706]

I'm with Sir Klopp on this; the writers are more comfortable with slice of life stuff rather than the epic, villain-driven storylines we all hope for. This isn't bad, as the show is a comedy in the first place, and that's when it's at its best anyway, but perhaps we will have to rely on the comics for world building.

 

I also believe that some villains are just irredeemable, and maybe unforgivable. I know I'm alone in this, but I'm satisfied with the lack of Sombra background. He isn't about charisma or personality, and I think trying to find a motive for his actions is missing the point: he's just a power hungry monster. He's FiM's answer to Sauron, a inhumane (or inequine or whatever) force of evil and destruction. Maybe they could do something that could make him for three dimensional, but I like Sombra because of how purely and ridiculously horrid he is.

 

I mean, not many ways you can redeem someone who specializes in enslaving and mind-raping others, is there?

 

As I've said before, Chrysalis could easily have some tragic background (love poison, anyone?), but I think she maybe a bit too far gone to be redeemed. She's motivated not by hunger or necessity, but by a lust for vengeance and oppressing others.

 

Regarding the topic of the thread, I want Gilda return. Real bad. I know she was a total bea-otch, but she's a lot more interesting to me than the other one-shot antagonists. Maybe it's just my head canon (Dash was her only friend), but I always got the "hurt that her childhood friend just told her to buck off" vibe from the ending of her episode.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

You know, I wouldn't mind more background for some of the villain characters, but I honestly think there's more of a chance of just having reoccurring villains. A lot of shows and cartoons have villains that show up every now and then to give the heroes a rough time; Diamond Tiara is an example of one, although she's small time since she's just some mean pony who goes to school with the CMC.

 

They could probably pull it off with one of the already established antagonists, though, such as Lightning Dust, Gilda, or Flim and Flam. Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I do like seeing villains come back every now and then.

 

Of course, with a show like My Little Pony, there's a high chance of them being redeemed if they show up a second time. Now, we've only had two antagonists show up twice (Diamond Tiara not counting), Discord and Trixie, and both of them are now considered (relatively) good. Not saying it's a rule now, but I see that being something that could potentially happen to any other antagonist that decides to show his or her face again.

[Orablanco Account 3,706]

Rainbow Hash just reminded me of something important:

 

Can Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon get some character development? At least make them more interesting to watch. They're really lame, generic bully characters, and it sucks that they're the only true recurring antagonist despite being so boring.

 

They make Biff from Back to the Future look like a fully developed persona in comparison.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Rainbow Hash just reminded me of something important:

 

Can Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon get some character development? At least make them more interesting to watch. They're really lame, generic bully characters, and it sucks that they're the only true recurring antagonist despite being so boring.

 

They make Biff from Back to the Future look like a fully developed persona in comparison.

 

Biff's the man, man!

 

No, but seriously, you're quite right. The long and short of it is that at this point, the only things we can be sure about Diamond Tiara is that she is the stuck up brat archetype who believes she is popular, although it's pretty clear she isn't at this point. And Silver Spoon is basically just her tag-along buddy who likes to see others suffer but also likes to get attention from Diamond Tiara.

 

A little character development would be nice, but at the same time I wonder if it's possible to have character development without turning the villains into good guys. It can be done, of course, but I wonder if the show would be willing to do that at all. After all, even Babs Seed, who seriously was a more terrifying bully than Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon ever were got redeemed at the end of her episode.

[NavelColt 22,877]

I think the fact that some villains remain unknown and retain that mysteriousness to their character is a good thing. Not every villain needs back story and character development to be a great villain. I personally don't need Chrysalis to have any back story; she's the tyrannical queen of a species of parasitic insect ponies that ravages other species' for love. That's all I need to know :3 That said, characters like Gilda and Sombra could really benefit from some more back story.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

I don't mean every villain should come back and be redeemed. It's fine with me if they stay bad, but at the least I'd like to know something about how they grew up, where they came from and where they went when their episodes were over. I don't need to see Sombra, the Flimflam Brothers or a 3rd Trixie appearance, but I think Gilda and especially Chrysalis could use more exploration.

 

But without a doubt, the minor antagonists who need it the most are:

 

Can Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon get some character development?

THANK YOU! We've got to have an episode about these two. Their characters work too well to just drop them, but if the show keeps using them the same way they'll just get boring. There must be a reason why a nice pony like Silver is friends with Diamond and just goes along with whatever she does.

 

Personally I think it's fear. If you're allied with a bully like Diamond who's always in attack mode, it minimizes the chances that you'll get teased yourself. You feel safe, but at the other foals' expense and eventually your conscience catches up with you--unless you're naturally cruel yourself. But I don't think Silver Spoon is...

 

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Yeah, I think Silver Spoon is just trying to get Diamond Tiara to laugh, like, and pay attention to her. If there's an episode that focuses on them, it could perhaps focus on that part of the relationship between the two of them.

 

And you know, maybe we'll actually find out how they got their cutie marks.

[duidamasterXD 9,626]

I think that with the exception of Discord, the minor villains have vastly more potential with regards to background. That's probably why I would like the return of Lightning Dust much more than I would like the return of Chrysalis. I feel like the big villains are just sort of there to play the role of a big threat or a problem that needs to be solved, and that is why their interactions with major characters have been relatively underdeveloped. Do you need to know Chrysalis/Sombra's childhood's or motivations? They just want power and control over others. That is why characters like Lightning, Trixie and the Flim Flam brothers have always felt more real and interesting to me, because they feel more like people quite frankly. I'd love to have their pasts expanded on in the future.

[poniesforfun 716]

At first I thought it would be cool to have more backstory but I guess that should be left for the more serious animated shows. Avatar the Last Airbender, Japanese animation, Batman these all can do it right because they're supposed to be more serious. MLP is just not serious enough. I would say leave the backstories for fans to flesh out on their fics.

[Veylon 255]

I really don't think that backstory is a good enough reason to bring back any of the antagonists thus far. Especially when there are plenty of other, more reasonable excuses to shoehorn them into an episode. There could be an "Enemy Mine" situation where they have to work together with someone they don't like. There could be a case of jumping to conclusions where the Mane Six just assume that the antagonist from a prior encounter is behind whatever mischief is going on simply because there's bad blood between them. Or they could just happen to be the same area due to having a common interest with one or another of the Mane Six. It wouldn't be unreasonable for Flim & Flam to be at a Exposition or Lightning Dash to enter a race.

[Phoenix237 353]

While a backstory episode would be good for villains, it just doesn't work for this series. This series is light hearted and extreme stories are reserved for other types of shows.

While it would be cool and I would like it to happen chances are that it's not.

[poniesforfun 716]

It would be nice to have more Chrysalis and Sombra episodes though. It might not deviate around their backstories, but there can be hints of what their likes and dislikes, and other things that can expand on. That would get our fanbases with more things to work with. So I guess I might be in an inverted way saying having backstories would be nice... but I guess I don't want their characters to be too complex.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

I think that with the exception of Discord, the minor villains have vastly more potential with regards to background. That's probably why I would like the return of Lightning Dust much more than I would like the return of Chrysalis. I feel like the big villains are just sort of there to play the role of a big threat or a problem that needs to be solved, and that is why their interactions with major characters have been relatively underdeveloped. Do you need to know Chrysalis/Sombra's childhood's or motivations? They just want power and control over others. That is why characters like Lightning, Trixie and the Flim Flam brothers have always felt more real and interesting to me, because they feel more like people quite frankly. I'd love to have their pasts expanded on in the future.

 

Yes, this right here is exactly right. I'm actually  more interested in minor antagonists like Flim and Flam, Gilda, and Lightning Dust coming back so that we can either enjoy more of their antics or learn more about them.

 

Especially Flim and Flam. They need to at least show up for a cameo or something! Those two ponies are probably my two favorite minor antagonists. Just love their singing and scammy ways.

[Dark Qiviut 22,217]

Little girls don't particularly care about the villains backstories, so there is no need for them to give them one. I keep hoping they will add a little more depth here and there, but they just aren't ever going to go as deep as a show designed for older audiences.

 

 

Unfortunately though, there is only so much they can do with 22 minutes per episode. =(

Target audience and time limit are no excuse to shun potential, especially in the professional field. If there's solid potential to make a character deeper, then do so with the editor's guidance and Hasbro's reluctance to keep it on track. Little girls generally may not have as much investment in the more complex characterization outwardly, but her elders, who are also a target audience, do. The balance in attracting who is why the show is successful in its full: It doesn't use excuses as a crutch.

 

Also, there's a major misconception when it comes to character development in villains. A villain doesn't need to become neutral or good to receive character development. Character development for a villain can actually translate into something that's more evil, but sometimes with some solid logic behind it. Diamond Tiara let her already large ego get into her head in Ponyville Confidential, and she controlled every asset to manipulate the Cutie Mark Crusaders. That, in itself, is character development for her because she became more evil, but a more realistic evil. She was the boss and abused her power to get everything she wanted.

 

Character development for villains is something that would really garner interest, particularly for those who love villains, young and old. Chrysalis is one of the lone true convincing villain left with Nightmare Moon transformed back to Luna, Discord becoming a neutral antagonist, and Sombra blown to pieces. She has the potential within the cartoon to go into major depth and make her manipulative, power hungry, and more sinister yet still in character.

 

For an antagonist, Silver Spoon and Diamond Tiara are obvious choices. Silver Spoon showed some respect for Granny Smith by being the first to clap, and it was thrown away in One Bad Apple. The same for Diamond Tiara and her sadistic streak in Ponyville Confidential being tossed aside. Silver Spoon has played second fiddle throughout the series and needs some leverage to individualize her as some antagonist worth following. Diamond Tiara needs to continue riding that bitchy manipulation from Ponyville Confidential in future stories.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Dark Qiviut

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Well, Qiviut, I have to say that I am in complete agreement. As I said in an earlier post, I hope that character development for the villains  doesn't just amount to them getting reformed or redeemed; learning more about their history, developing more parts of their personality, or even just showing them getting more corrupted or evil are all different ways to develop existing antagonists.

 

Out of the main villains we've seen, I agree that more Chrysalis would be nice. I would also like more Discord, but he's not really a villain anymore so I guess I can just brush him to the side and leave him be for now.

[FancyPhoenix 197]

Well... I do really like Chrysalis (like REALLY like  ), and I feel that her character had too little amount of screen time to actually process all the potential she carries. BUT I think that IF she is to return in season four and IF they make her drop the villain status (especially if it happens like they did with Discord... I mean, come ON! ) I think I just might have to pay a visit to the writer of that particular episode... with a baseball bat... and possibly a body bag   So no, I don't want to see her coming back if it's going to be like with Discord.

 

The characters that I DO feel like they should have a bit more background are most definitely Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon. They carry such MASSIVE potential for character development and lesson learning, it'd be a shame to let it go to waste. Also I think Gilda should make at least a brief return. I think it'd make a great Dash episode if Gilda returned and tried to apologise for her behaviour, but Dash refused to forgive her. At first of course. Then stuff would happen and they'd all be friends once again  Would make a great lesson on forgiveness. 

 

All in all, many of the smaller antagonists do have potential for good episodes in the future, but the bigger ones like Chrysalis, Discord or Sombra only tend to turn out really bad (like we saw in "Keep Calm and Flutter On") Oh, and just for record, I'd like some new small antagonists. Babs Seed was a great addition. Lightning Dust was a bit meh, but so was the entire "Wonderbolt Academy" episode in my opinion.

[Orablanco Account 3,706]

Target audience and time limit are no excuse to shun potential, especially in the professional field. If there's solid potential to make a character deeper, then do so with the editor's guidance and Hasbro's reluctance to keep it on track. Little girls generally may not have as much investment in the more complex characterization outwardly, but her elders, who are also a target audience, do. The balance in attracting who is why the show is successful in its full: It doesn't use excuses as a crutch.

 

Also, there's a major misconception when it comes to character development in villains. A villain doesn't need to become neutral or good to receive character development. Character development for a villain can actually translate into something that's more evil, but sometimes with some solid logic behind it. Diamond Tiara let her already large ego get into her head in Ponyville Confidential, and she controlled every asset to manipulate the Cutie Mark Crusaders. That, in itself, is character development for her because she became more evil, but a more realistic evil. She was the boss and abused her power to get everything she wanted.

 

Character development for villains is something that would really garner interest, particularly for those who love villains, young and old. Chrysalis is one of the lone true convincing villain left with Nightmare Moon transformed back to Luna, Discord becoming a neutral antagonist, and Sombra blown to pieces. She has the potential within the cartoon to go into major depth and make her manipulative, power hungry, and more sinister yet still in character.

 

For an antagonist, Silver Spoon and Diamond Tiara are obvious choices. Silver Spoon showed some respect for Granny Smith by being the first to clap, and it was thrown away in One Bad Apple. The same for Diamond Tiara and her sadistic streak in Ponyville Confidential being tossed aside. Silver Spoon has played second fiddle throughout the series and needs some leverage to individualize her as some antagonist worth following. Diamond Tiara needs to continue riding that bitchy manipulation from Ponyville Confidential in future stories.

My exact feelings regarding Sombra: he's just pure evil, but that's what makes him cool.

 

I do hope that they develop Chrysalis along the lines your're thinking of. A tragic, maybe even sympathetic backstory would just serve make her a darker and more interesting character. Just look at Lotso Bear.

 

 

Also, I totally agree with your comments on excuses for not developing characters. Just because something is meant for kids doesn't mean it shouldn't try.

 

That said, in this case, I think it's just a matter of the writers not wanting it to be that type of show.