mega thread Feminist Club!

[Sir Fluffernutter 433]

Oh, good, there's a feminist thread that isn't pointless bickering and people claiming all feminists are bad because of Tumblr and like-minded people. Thanks for making this thread, dude

 

Since I have absolutely no clue what's going on, I'll just answer the questions in the op.

 

- When and why did you become a feminist?

I guess I was always a feminist cause I always thought women should be equal to men, but I never knew what a feminist was until my fifth grade teacher explained it to me.

 

- Why do you think feminism is still relevant to today's world?

Many women are subject to sexism all around. Men have been wrongly considered as superior throughout history, and it still lingers in some areas. In others, sexism is still in full force.

 

- What is difficult about being a feminist in general?

People. It's always people. Whether it's people thinking all feminists are extremist man-haters or the man-haters themselves, people are the biggest problem for me.

 

- How do you think feminism gets treated in the MLP fandom?

Eh, it really depends on who you're talking to. I've seen bronies who think feminism is great, an others who think it's shit. I'd say the fandom has mixed opinions.

 

- How does MLP support your feminist values?

It's a show with female characters that aren't just damsels in distress all the time. Also, girls aren't in any way under represented, which is nice.

 

- How do people react when you say you're a feminist?

I really don't tell people I'm a feminist, simply because it's never comes up. I'd hope it would end well, but you can never be sure.

 

- What is awesome about being a feminist?

It's nice talking to people who think similar to myself on certain topics. Gender equality is one of them.

 

- How has feminism affected you personally?

It's actually sort of helped me with my transition from female to male in a way. Granted, I'm pre everything and not out yet, but I've been raised in an environment where girls(or in my case "girls") actually allowed to wear dudes' clothing, which would have never been allowed happened 50 years ago. Cause y'know, gender roles and all. It makes me feel better about myself that I'm not forced to wear a dress.

 

I guess that's it, since I have no answer for the last question.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Sir Fluffernutter

[Jennabun 1,578]

just for the record:

 

rape culture is women being killed for being raped, because she lost her virginity

 

rape culture is the society that sees virginity as some kind of product, and actively kidnapp virgins to sell them.

 

rape culture is thinking raping a virgin girl will cure your aids.

 

first world country societies bash rapist, even criminals are attacked EVEN KILLED in prisons by the inmantes, just liek child abusers. (we are talking about the people that raped OUTSIDE THE PRISON, they are seen as filthy, the prisoners that rape inside give the excuse they have sexual needs)

 

there are tons of organizations that help rape victims and aid them in such a traumatic experience.

 

that proves there is NO rape culture in america, or britain, or canada.

 

also, rape in fiction is just that FICTION, most of the content where this rape is aimed is at mature people, people that can tell between right and wrong, that has already set their mind in what they want to do, if by the time you are 18 you still are a rapist, or you arent one, some rape image in some porn site is NOT magically make you change your mind.

 

being scared of being rape is NORMAL, just like being scared of being kidnapped or assaulted, it doesnt mean there is a kidnapp culture or an assault culture, there will ALWAYS be crime, and we always have to be wary of it.

 

just putting here to clear some minds about the so called rape culture, because is the thing is mostly debated.

 

There is no denying that first world countries have it much easier than other nations when it comes to rape epidemics. No rational feminist is going to argue with that. But I'm extremely hesitant to say that there is absolutely no rape culture whatsoever in first countries. It is to a much lesser extent certainly, but there are still major issues. There being worse problems in the world doesn't mean I don't get to be mad about people being raped in the country I live in.

 

This is an article that gives a few examples of how rape culture still permeates the US. There are people experiencing really shitty things related to rape and issues of consent. Am I saying this is the number one worst issue in the world? No. Am I saying that it's an issue the deserves to be fixed? Yes.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

ALSO unrelated to the above reply -- I really want to encourage people to at least read the things that I have posted before posting new replies. I'm not trying to be rude, but people keep repeating the same stuff over and over again and it's getting exhausting replying to the same thing. For example, I think I've clarified many, many times that THIS THREAD DOES NOT SUPPORT SO-CALLED "RADICAL FEMINISM" AND DOES NOT ENDORSE IDEAS OF FEMALE SUPERIORITY. So please, stop posting things like, "I'm only for feminism if it's not about female superiority and also I hate rad fems." We get it. We're all on the same page. I have the definition of feminism that this thread is for in the very post post: feminist (n): a person who advocates for social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. I wouldn't have posted that specific definition if I was in fact endorsing female superiority over males. Female superiority is not what feminism is at all, so you DON'T NEED TO CLARIFY THAT YOU DON'T APPROVE OF FEMALE SUPERIORITY. Okay? Let's move on. Sorry if I sounded harsh, I'm not trying to be. I'm just getting sad because I wanted to actually talk about some cool, in-depth feminist-y stuff here instead of just defending myself and the basic definition of feminism all of the time.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Jennabun

[Zygen 6,065]

There is no denying that first world countries have it much easier than other nations when it comes to rape epidemics. No rational feminist is going to argue with that. But I'm extremely hesitant to say that there is absolutely no rape culture whatsoever in first countries. It is to a much lesser extent certainly, but there are still major issues. There being worse problems in the world doesn't mean I don't get to be mad about people being raped in the country I live in.

 

This is an article that gives a few examples of how rape culture still permeates the US. There are people experiencing really shitty things related to rape and issues of consent. Am I saying this is the number one worst issue in the world? No. Am I saying that it's an issue the deserves to be fixed? Yes.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

ALSO unrelated to the above reply -- I really want to encourage people to at least read the things that I have posted before posting new replies. I'm not trying to be rude, but people keep repeating the same stuff over and over again and it's getting exhausting replying to the same thing. For example, I think I've clarified many, many times that THIS THREAD DOES NOT SUPPORT SO-CALLED "RADICAL FEMINISM" AND DOES NOT ENDORSE IDEAS OF FEMALE SUPERIORITY. So please, stop posting things like, "I'm only for feminism if it's not about female superiority and also I hate rad fems." We get it. We're all on the same page. I have the definition of feminism that this thread is for in the very post post: feminist (n): a person who advocates for social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. I wouldn't have posted that specific definition if I was in fact endorsing female superiority over males. Female superiority is not what feminism is at all, so you DON'T NEED TO CLARIFY THAT YOU DON'T APPROVE OF FEMALE SUPERIORITY. Okay? Let's move on. Sorry if I sounded harsh, I'm not trying to be. I'm just getting sad because I wanted to actually talk about some cool, in-depth feminist-y stuff here instead of just defending myself and the basic definition of feminism all of the time.

I'm sorry, I guess I really didn't think about the fact that basically everyone has probably established that nobody really likes radical feminists, except radical feminists. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest, because it gets on my nerves quite a lot sometimes, and there isn't much I can really do about it.

 

But I apologize, i didn't mean to be redundant and I apologize if my own post came off as redundant, especially since I tend to ramble and restate the same thing within my own post like 50 thousand times anyways.

[Jennabun 1,578]

 

 

- What is difficult about being a feminist in general? People. It's always people. Whether it's people thinking all feminists are extremist man-haters or the man-haters themselves, people are the biggest problem for me.

 

Yessssss. I feel this so hard.

 

 

 

- How has feminism affected you personally? It's actually sort of helped me with my transition from female to male in a way. Granted, I'm pre everything and not out yet, but I've been raised in an environment where girls(or in my case "girls") actually allowed to wear dudes' clothing, which would have never been allowed happened 50 years ago. Cause y'know, gender roles and all. It makes me feel better about myself that I'm not forced to wear a dress.

 

My partner is FTM and he's told me similar things. It's nice to see that modern day feminism can benefit trans folk. Makes me very, very happy <3

 

I'm sorry, I guess I really didn't think about the fact that basically everyone has probably established that nobody really likes radical feminists, except radical feminists. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest, because it gets on my nerves quite a lot sometimes, and there isn't much I can really do about it.

 

But I apologize, i didn't mean to be redundant and I apologize if my own post came off as redundant, especially since I tend to ramble and restate the same thing within my own post like 50 thousand times anyways.

 

No worries friend. It's not just you; it's been like every person who has posted here XD It must be on a lot of people's mind, which is fine. I just hope we can eventually get past that and talk about more in-depth things. This thread just means a lot to me and I may act a little controlling and type-A about it sometimes (my inner Twilight, lol) But you're good. I appreciated the long post, no need to worry about being rambly. I'm really rambly too...

[Zygen 6,065]

 

 

No worries friend. It's not just you; it's been like every person who has posted here XD It must be on a lot of people's mind, which is fine. I just hope we can eventually get past that and talk about more in-depth things. This thread just means a lot to me and I may act a little controlling and type-A about it sometimes (my inner Twilight, lol) But you're good. I appreciated the long post, no need to worry about being rambly. I'm really rambly too...

 

I guess so ;p, I just felt obligated to apologize. Because I just realized the redundancy.

 

And I guess it probably has is, I suppose people figure this is the safest place to get it off their minds, or atleast one of the safest places, which may be why it is present in so many posts.

 

I'll try not to bring it up to much, It just get really tired of having to take hearing it all the time without saying anything, I didn't mean to take it out on you, or add to the redundancy though. 

 

And I can understand that, of course both as someone who isn't around to many if any really non radical feminists, and well being a male idk how much I can really contribute to the discussion.

 

I also tend to be really passive, and neutral and reclusive and stuff when it comes to this stuff. So even if I do post my opinions I tend to be pretty passive about it. So just keep that in mind ;p.

 

There's probably also probably some of me that's simply bitter towards females for other reasons, like the fact that I haven't dated one in the 17 years of my life, and other personal reasons and other unexplained for sure ones.

 

But in the end I do think equality is a good thing. Still my passive and neutral nature makes me kinda hesitant to really go either way towards being a feminist or anti feminist, so I'm just kinda stuck in the middle here kinda I feel.

 

And I can understand this meaning alot to you, being a feminist yourself and a female at that i'm sure the whole topic has a large impact on your life.

 

I can be kinda controlling myself lol. So don't worry I understand the feeling ;p.

 

And it's good to hear that I'm not alone on the rambling thing.

 

And trust me, most of my posts are pretty long, for one reason or another.

 

I guess if it's ok I'd like to ask you as a feminist what you think about the more revealing clothing many girls wear? Like really short shorts and stuff like that. Do you consider this something ok as a feminist? Or is it just kinda irrelevant? Or are you totally against it? Just kinda curious and figured it might be a more creative discussion. Maybe if I understand feminists and feminism better I can get rid of some of my bitter feelings towards feminists and females and all the such.

 

If you don't want to answer the question for whatever reason don't feel obligated, I don't want to do anything to mess up what your trying to do in this thread. So I will understand if you say so. I just don't know a ton about the actual non radical feminists, so I'm curious.

 

Personally even as a guy I really don't care for most of it, I mean I'm ok with some of it, but some goes to far I find personally, I don't necessarily mind short shorts, but well some stuff gets to be where it's almost like why even wear clothes?

 

Idk, i'm kind of a weird guy, just as a warning, so I'm not sure if this makes any sense.

 

Good luck with the thread regardless, it's nice to see some feminists who aren't just like "Men are terrible beings who need to be destroyed!" ;p.

[Jennabun 1,578]

I guess if it's ok I'd like to ask you as a feminist what you think about the more revealing clothing many girls wear? Like really short shorts and stuff like that. Do you consider this something ok as a feminist? Or is it just kinda irrelevant? Or are you totally against it? Just kinda curious and figured it might be a more creative discussion. Maybe if I understand feminists and feminism better I can get rid of some of my bitter feelings towards feminists and females and all the such.

 

It's totally okay to ask these questions! As long as people respond politely and it doesn't become a potentially rude/intense "RAWR IMMA FIGHT WITH YOU!!!!!!! DEBATE DEBATE DEBATE!!!" kind of thing I'm tooootally open to most topics.

 

It's my personal opinion that all people, man or woman, should wear whatever makes them comfortable. So that's how I see this issue. If what you're wearing makes you feel happy and confident, go for it. If a girl wants to dress in hoodies and jeans, awesome. If she wants to wear shorts and a tank top, that's awesome too.

 

I feel like women's and girls' bodies are constantly under critique in today's society and it makes me pretty sad. I'm up for anything that takes some of the pressure off of girls to always look perfect because no matter what, it's a losing battle. People are always going to judge you, so you might as well just do what makes you feel the best.

 

I'm a teacher at a middle school, and I see perfectly awesome girls getting shamed for wearing shorts during the summer - shorts that look just like normal everyday jean shorts. I'm baffled by it. It's mostly tall girls or chubby girls that get unfairly targeted - shorts just end up looking shorter on them, and then they end up having to wear these ugly baggy gym shorts all day as a punishment. I don't like it. I feel like making girls feel bad just for baring their legs gives them some questionable messages about their bodies. It makes girls feel ashamed, and for what reason? For having legs? For wanting to be cool during hot weather? It's not like legs are even a sexual part of the body - people just sexualize it because they're taught to see women's and girls' bodies that way, which doesn't seem right to me. And this goes for short skirts and stuff too.

 

Another problem with telling girls not to wear "short skirts" or "short shorts" is that it's completely subjective. At what point does shorts become too short? At what point do skirts become too short? I think it's silly. People should be able to wear whatever they like (as long as they're not walking around naked - that's illegal in most places lol). Another person's clothing choices really do not hurt you in any way.

 

Of course, there are obvious limits for both genders when it comes to fairly-enforced dress codes in the professional sphere. I'm not going to wear a bikini to my job as a teacher. My dad isn't going to walk around in a muscle shirt and tighty-whities at his office job. That's a no brainer. But just for everyday life? Do whatever makes you happy, as long as you're not hurting anyone.

 

Wearing a little dress doesn't make you a slut. Wearing a crop top doesn't make you a whore. I believe that women are people first and never sex objects - it doesn't matter how much fabric they have on their bodies.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Jennabun

[Zygen 6,065]

It's totally okay to ask these questions! As long as people respond politely and it doesn't become a potentially rude/intense "RAWR IMMA FIGHT WITH YOU!!!!!!! DEBATE DEBATE DEBATE!!!" kind of thing I'm tooootally open to most topics.

 

It's my personal opinion that all people, man or woman, should wear whatever makes them comfortable. So that's how I see this issue. If what you're wearing makes you feel happy and confident, go for it. If a girl wants to dress in hoodies and jeans, awesome. If she wants to wear shorts and a tank top, that's awesome too.

 

I feel like women's and girls' bodies are constantly under critique in today's society and it makes me pretty sad. I'm up for anything that takes some of the pressure off of girls to always look perfect because no matter what, it's a losing battle. People are always going to judge you, so you might as well just do what makes you feel the best.

 

I'm a teacher at a middle school, and I see perfectly awesome girls getting shamed for wearing shorts during the summer - shorts that look just like normal everyday jean shorts. I'm baffled by it. It's mostly tall girls or chubby girls that get unfairly targeted - shorts just end up looking shorter on them, and then they end up having to wear these ugly baggy gym shorts all day as a punishment. I don't like it. I feel like making girls feel bad just for baring their legs gives them some questionable messages about their bodies. It makes girls feel ashamed, and for what reason? For having legs? For wanting to be cool during hot weather? It's not like legs are even a sexual part of the body - people just sexualize it because they're taught to see women's and girls' bodies that way, which doesn't seem right to me. And this goes for short skirts and stuff too.

 

Another problem with telling girls not to wear "short skirts" or "short shorts" is that it's completely subjective. At what point does shorts become too short? At what point do skirts become too short? I think it's silly. People should be able to wear whatever they like (as long as they're not walking around naked - that's illegal in most places lol). Another person's clothing choices really do not hurt you in any way.

 

Of course, there are obvious limits for both genders when it comes to fairly-enforced dress codes in the professional sphere. I'm not going to wear a bikini to my job as a teacher. My dad isn't going to walk around in a muscle shirt and tighty-whities at his office job. That's a no brainer. But just for everyday life? Do whatever makes you happy, as long as you're not hurting anyone.

 

Wearing a little dress doesn't make you a slut. Wearing a crop top doesn't make you a whore. I believe that women are people first and never sex objects - it doesn't matter how much fabric they have on their bodies.

Oh ok, well in that case I promise I will try to refrain from biting your face off or growling at you or anything ;p.

 

I don't really get the whole girls have to be perfect thing myself. Honestly i find most girls get pretty obsessive with it, when in reality it shouldn't be such a big deal in my opinion. 

 

I mean not every girl is suppose to try and look like a super model, plenty of guys don't try to look like super models(I can tell you that I am far from that lol.) but that should be ok, it shouldn't be expected that girls are suppose to somehow look like freaking super models(Most of which are edited in some way to look better anyways.)

 

I mean sure guys have some different things they sometimes try and enforce when it comes to looks, especially when it comes to muscle, because trust me, many guys are obsessed with muscles and stuff. Of course it might be less about the looks thing and more about the fact that guys tend to be quite competitive with each other about... well basically anything they can be, mostly sports. 

 

Of course maybe it's because I don't really consider myself as masculine as some guys, but really i'm not super concerned about muscles or any of that stuff.

 

But regardless I do agree that women don't need to be forced to look perfect, because looks aren't everything(Well if they are i'm screwed in that case, because I sure don't have them, and I'm pretty sure even if wearing makeup as a guy was ok that wouldn't fix things ;p.)

 

And I agree, legs aren't really a sexualized part of the body, well unless it's specific people, but regardless.

 

I think with short shorts they're more concerned about how it draws attention to.. well you know. Since there is less clothes covering. Or in some cases it's because it's tighter. 

 

I mean I guess you could say that it shouldn't be thought of that way, but unfortunately even for guys who don't tend to think in such a manner, or atleast try to avoid to, it's just kind of a part of male hormones that guys are going to think in a sexualized way, and so shorter clothes is probably going to lead more guys to losing themselves to hormones(This really doesn't help guys very much does it, but seriously, male hormones can be pretty freaking invasive. I don't mean to make it sound like were animals, but well, it's hard to explain.) 

 

I suppose as far as casual wear goes though in the end it really doesn't matter to much I guess. The only thing is that It can lead to men thinking of women in more of a sexual way if they dress in a way that shows them off in a more sexual way, if that makes any sense. Especially those who already think in such a manner.

 

And certainly when it comes to professional places I feel the same basically, you shouldn't be dressing all super casual to a job interview or work or whatever. It just makes sense to me really. idk.

 

And dresses I don't find typically are really that revealing, but regardless.

 

No real idea what a crop top is, sorry I'm a guy, we have a limited selection of clothing types, which I guess can be good and bad, but it certainly leads to me not being able to know what that is ;p.

 

 

Regardless I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

And true that should be the case, I don't believe women should be sex objects either, but people, really the ones who think of women in such a manner are usually just not as in control of the hormones.

 

Of course on the other side of things you do have to understand that certain ways women dress can make thinking of women in that way much more difficult for us, so idk, it's hard to say where the line would be for this type of thing.

 

I think that one thing is for sure that we shouldn't have women walking around naked ;p. I think most of us can atleast agree on that.

 

I think that addresses everything I think, I'm a bit tired as it's kinda late over here, and thus I'm kinda getting more rambly and some of my thoughts may be kind of unclear, so feel free to ask for clarification, I'm probably going to head to bed for now. 

 

And again this is all my personal opinion, I'm not meaning to represent all men or anything, because honestly I'm kind of an odd guy in my eyes, so another guy may think about all of this in an entirely different way.

 

But it's nice to get different perspectives I suppose. It's been nice talking and learning a bit about feminists and females to maybe help wash out some of the sour taste I have for females and feminists in some regards due to some radical feminists I've been around.

 

Thanks and have a good day/night!

[Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb 167]

I can't say I know my view on feminism, I guess you could say that atleast I do believe women should have equal rights as long as it doesn't become women above men. 

 

I certainly don't think that women should be treated unequally for sure. Much less as flat out slaves or anything, that just doesn't sound right to me any way you slice it.

 

I certainly don't agree with extremists either, because obviously being a man myself I am not going to accept the fact that men are just animalistic and useless.

 

However I do understand that many feminists are not this extremist view that feminism is made out to be, i'm not going to be ignorant to those who are actually going for true equality. 

 

However unfortunately the fact that many girls I know could be considered radical feminists, as they don't care for guys, or hate them outright, or think they are inferior, I've even had them make comments like "Girls can do everything guys can do, plus 1" and when it's pounded into your head enough sometimes you have to wonder sometimes.

 

Regardless while I feel I have a hard time believing there are good intentions behind feminism with the behavior of girls I have come across at times who just come off as rude or whinny or annoying or just leave a sour taste in my mouth with regards to feminism and women in general. 

 

But I do think women should have equality, just make sure that equality is equality, and not something skewed. 

 

Does that make any sense? I'm not very good at explaining myself, I just want to make it clear that while I have been around many women who are not of the feminism i'd support, I still understand there is true good feminists out there who I suppose I support?

 

Honestly many times I'd rather hang around girls in many cases, I find some to be much nicer and even some who are slightly less radical feminists are ok as long as they're not directly discussing men vs women or anything. 

 

They also tend to be more caring and willing to listen to you from an emotional standpoint, and are better at it then guys typically, but unfortunately guys and feelings don't mix much in society, so the side effect is even when we do talk about feelings, we're kind of really bad at it, due to lack of experience. 

 

And of course while there are girls who are extremist and radical and annoying, I know plenty of guys who I dislike for other reasons.

 

So really there's bad apples in both bunches, and ups and downs to both in all aspects, but I think we should still strive for equality between men and women. Maybe learn a thing or two from each other to better ourselves as humans as a whole.

 

I think I can agree with many parts of this comic. Honestly this might even better explain my views on feminism in some aspects than my actual post ;p.

^^^^^^^^ this right here I agree 100% with this

[Jennabun 1,578]

Oh ok, well in that case I promise I will try to refrain from biting your face off or growling at you or anything ;p.

 

I don't really get the whole girls have to be perfect thing myself. Honestly i find most girls get pretty obsessive with it, when in reality it shouldn't be such a big deal in my opinion.

 

I mean not every girl is suppose to try and look like a super model, plenty of guys don't try to look like super models(I can tell you that I am far from that lol.) but that should be ok, it shouldn't be expected that girls are suppose to somehow look like freaking super models(Most of which are edited in some way to look better anyways.)

 

I mean sure guys have some different things they sometimes try and enforce when it comes to looks, especially when it comes to muscle, because trust me, many guys are obsessed with muscles and stuff. Of course it might be less about the looks thing and more about the fact that guys tend to be quite competitive with each other about... well basically anything they can be, mostly sports.

 

Of course maybe it's because I don't really consider myself as masculine as some guys, but really i'm not super concerned about muscles or any of that stuff.

 

But regardless I do agree that women don't need to be forced to look perfect, because looks aren't everything(Well if they are i'm screwed in that case, because I sure don't have them, and I'm pretty sure even if wearing makeup as a guy was ok that wouldn't fix things ;p.)

 

And I agree, legs aren't really a sexualized part of the body, well unless it's specific people, but regardless.

 

I think with short shorts they're more concerned about how it draws attention to.. well you know. Since there is less clothes covering. Or in some cases it's because it's tighter.

 

I mean I guess you could say that it shouldn't be thought of that way, but unfortunately even for guys who don't tend to think in such a manner, or atleast try to avoid to, it's just kind of a part of male hormones that guys are going to think in a sexualized way, and so shorter clothes is probably going to lead more guys to losing themselves to hormones(This really doesn't help guys very much does it, but seriously, male hormones can be pretty freaking invasive. I don't mean to make it sound like were animals, but well, it's hard to explain.)

 

I suppose as far as casual wear goes though in the end it really doesn't matter to much I guess. The only thing is that It can lead to men thinking of women in more of a sexual way if they dress in a way that shows them off in a more sexual way, if that makes any sense. Especially those who already think in such a manner.

 

And certainly when it comes to professional places I feel the same basically, you shouldn't be dressing all super casual to a job interview or work or whatever. It just makes sense to me really. idk.

 

And dresses I don't find typically are really that revealing, but regardless.

 

No real idea what a crop top is, sorry I'm a guy, we have a limited selection of clothing types, which I guess can be good and bad, but it certainly leads to me not being able to know what that is ;p.

 

 

Regardless I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

And true that should be the case, I don't believe women should be sex objects either, but people, really the ones who think of women in such a manner are usually just not as in control of the hormones.

 

Of course on the other side of things you do have to understand that certain ways women dress can make thinking of women in that way much more difficult for us, so idk, it's hard to say where the line would be for this type of thing.

 

I think that one thing is for sure that we shouldn't have women walking around naked ;p. I think most of us can atleast agree on that.

 

I think that addresses everything I think, I'm a bit tired as it's kinda late over here, and thus I'm kinda getting more rambly and some of my thoughts may be kind of unclear, so feel free to ask for clarification, I'm probably going to head to bed for now.

 

And again this is all my personal opinion, I'm not meaning to represent all men or anything, because honestly I'm kind of an odd guy in my eyes, so another guy may think about all of this in an entirely different way.

 

But it's nice to get different perspectives I suppose. It's been nice talking and learning a bit about feminists and females to maybe help wash out some of the sour taste I have for females and feminists in some regards due to some radical feminists I've been around.

 

Thanks and have a good day/night!

I don't think guys mean to put pressure on girls to look perfect on purpose at all. I think it just kind of happens implicitly though what is displayed through the media and our upbringing. The vast majority of women represented in mainstream Western media are thin, white, and traditionally pretty. So women get this idea subconsciously through years of absorbing media that they need to look like that to be considered beautiful. And with girls, it's not about just being beautiful. It's about wanting to feel validated inside. Unfortunately, I feel like girls' value as entire people is often judged on their level of "prettiness." Nobody seems to care about what fat women say, or what old women say, or what black women say, or what disabled women say... All our focus as a culture tends to be on what the youngest, sexiest new female celebrities are saying. That really says a lot about how we tend to view women. I feel like the cultural tendency to value only "pretty" women is what makes women turn to cosmetic surgery and eating disorders so much.

 

And I get what you're saying about hormones - I mean, it's natural to think sexual thoughts when you see an attractive person. That happens to both genders, male and female. We just need to make sure we keep ourselves in check because hormones are never an excuse to treat people like sexual objects. There's no such thing as being controlled by hormones; we need to get away from that thinking. You have to to remember that many rapists use that rationalization when explaining why they decided to rape someone ("I couldn't help myself!" "Look at her clothes! She was asking for it!" "I couldn't stop" etc), which is all bs. What separates humans from animals is our ability to not act on impulse - we are in control of our behavior (unless someone has a mental disability of some kind, of course). We ought to take responsibility for the way we react to things.

 

Is it logical to see an attractive girl in tight pants and get turned on? Yeah. Is it potentially distracting? Sure, but it CAN be managed. Most importantly, does you being turned on or distracted permit you to pass judgement on a girl, or worse, permit you to justify actions such as harassment, rape, assault? No.

 

Not that you would personally do anything to harm a woman, fyi. Just some things to keep in mind. Sometimes seemingly meaningless actions, like telling boys they have no control over their hormones, leads into bigger problems.

 

Plus, a side note: girls definitely go through a very similar hormone rush to guys during adolescence, yet nobody expects girls to be wildly sexual and out of control. If girls can be expected to behave, guys can too lol

Edited July 8, 2014 by Jennabun

[Zygen 6,065]

I don't think guys mean to put pressure on girls to look perfect on purpose at all. I think it just kind of happens implicitly though what is displayed through the media and our upbringing. The vast majority of women represented in mainstream Western media are thin, white, and traditionally pretty. So women get this idea subconsciously through years of absorbing media that they need to look like that to be considered beautiful. And with girls, it's not about just being beautiful. It's about wanting to feel validated inside. Unfortunately, I feel like girls' value as entire people is often judged on their level of "prettiness." Nobody seems to care about what fat women say, or what old women say, or what black women say, or what disabled women say... All our focus as a culture tends to be on what the youngest, sexiest new female celebrities are saying. That really says a lot about how we tend to view women. I feel like the cultural tendency to value only "pretty" women is what makes women turn to cosmetic surgery and eating disorders so much.

 

And I get what you're saying about hormones - I mean, it's natural to think sexual thoughts when you see an attractive person. That happens to both genders, male and female. We just need to make sure we keep ourselves in check because hormones are never an excuse to treat people like sexual objects. There's no such thing as being controlled by hormones; we need to get away from that thinking. You have to to remember that many rapists use that rationalization when explaining why they decided to rape someone ("I couldn't help myself!" "Look at her clothes! She was asking for it!" "I couldn't stop" etc), which is all bs. What separates humans from animals is our ability to not act on impulse - we are in control of our behavior (unless someone has a mental disability of some kind, of course). We ought to take responsibility for the way we react to things.

 

Is it logical to see an attractive girl in tight pants and get turned on? Yeah. Is it potentially distracting? Sure, but it CAN be managed. Most importantly, does you being turned on or distracted permit you to pass judgement on a girl, or worse, permit you to justify actions such as harassment, rape, assault? No.

 

Not that you would personally do anything to harm a woman, fyi. Just some things to keep in mind. Sometimes seemingly meaningless actions, like telling boys they have no control over their hormones, leads into bigger problems.

 

Plus, a side note: girls definitely go through a very similar hormone rush to guys during adolescence, yet nobody expects girls to be wildly sexual and out of control. If girls can be expected to behave, guys can too lol

I feel like honestly girls are more worried about other girls when it comes to how they look many times, unless they're dating a guy and going out with them or something, but honestly even then most guys really aren't the kind to be overly concerned upon every little detail and many times aren't super concerned on looks. Contrary to belief of some many guys are way more concerned with personality than just looking "hot" or "sexy" or whatever. I just don't think girls need to worry as much about their looks as they do, but it is pretty hard to change such a thing really. 

 

I guess with the whole self validation and validation of others with looking pretty and whatever it's kind of for similar reasons as to why guys worry about being masculine and manly and tough and what not, i'm sure your aware of the stereotypes of guys so I will try and avoid that redundancy. But I guess it's all for similar reasons, just to fit in and feel validation. Really that's not a gender specific thing, but just one thing that we all strive for as humans.

 

And it's certainly true that women that aren't freaking stick figures aren't paid attention to in any sense. I mean I wouldn't say that being fat is a good thing necessarily, but as long as your not to the point that your hurting your health I think it's ok. You shouldn't really concern yourself about weight unless it is going to affect your health, and actually being underweight carries many more side effects and risks than being overweight. Plus women tend to hold onto fat more than men in preparation for children. 

 

I could care less about celebrities in general, male or female, "sexy" or not. I don't really care for it honestly. That's just me. Sure some of them may look good, but like that doesn't mean I'm going to follow their every word or something.

 

And yeah that's true hormones aren't something you can always avoid, that said it isn't something that should be used as an excuse for commiting acts such as rape. Like sure, I have hormones just like any other guy(not everyone gets the exact same amount i'm sure, but still.) however, that doesn't mean I'm going to go rape any girl I find "attractive." 

 

And yeah, I don't take any offense, I'm trying my best to think objectively about this, not as a man or women, or as me or whatever, just in the grand scheme of things, so no worries, I understand your not trying to say that I'm going to commit such acts(especially since I haven't even had a ton of interest in dating women, much less doing such things as that.) 

 

Most guys have atleast some form of control over their hormones, some more than others, some have more hormones than others, so it all varies. But don't worry, i'll try not to take any of this to personally.

 

And yeah that's true women do have hormone rushes through puberty, we both get hormones of course, however we get different hormones, which do different things. 

 

Also guys normally get their hormones constantly and typically more steadily. So it may be more difficult for them to refrain from thinking in perverted ways and the such always. Not saying that they shouldn't try, but it certainly isn't easy, and it really isn't simply a just because girls can do it means guys can to, since guys and girls have different hormones which are released and react differently.

 

Women tend to get their hormones in rushes and thus tend to have some more drastic sudden effects.

 

Just want to make sure you understand that guys and girls hormones don't affect them the same way, sorry that sentence sounds kind of obvious and offensive, but hopefully you understand what i'm trying to say, sorry if you feel offended.

 

I guess there is also some things that will be hard to understand truly, or compare, and stuff between woman and men, because well i'm a man and your a woman and thus I've only ever been a man and experienced things about being a man, and you've only experienced things as a woman, so some things we just won't be able to truly explain I guess or understand since we are always going to have some form of bias.

 

Regardless I enjoy hearing and discussing things and learning your thoughts on the whole matter, it's nice to get to see others thoughts about things. And get a different perspective. Hopefully you get something out of my sometimes long winded ramblings as I attempt to express my thoughts and feelings on the matter and explain things that are sometimes quite difficult to explain given the fact I have only experienced things on my end, and you have only experienced things on your end.

 

And most importantly this is all my personal opinion, so feel free to disagree, and of course it isn't like it's going to be the same as every man. And I hope I didn't offend you in any way, as I am not trying to, but sometimes I really suck at wording things to the point they can be taken as such.

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

To pass the Bechdel test, a movie just has to have two named female characters and they have to talk to each other about something other than a man. The Bechdel test has nothing to do with damsels in distress. It isn't a measure of how strong or courageous the female characters are. It just shows whether or not the movie showcases female characters in a way that isn't male-focused.

 

It's a cool way to analyze if a movie is feminist-friendly, but it's not all-inclusive. Some movies that fail the Bechdel test have great, well-rounded female characters. Some movies that pass the Bechdel test are still sexist as hell.

 

Basically it's alright to use, just make sure you're looking at the whole picture.

 

 

Which is why I consider it a failure.

 

There's where to many loopholes and cracks for it to ever be a valid gauge of anything in my eyes. It's pretty much the textbook example how NOT to design a gauge for anything. It's almost as bad a someone of the MPAAs content gauges(did you know a movie could completely PG in all other ways but dropping two f-bombs or one in sexual context will get it an automatic R?)

[Twilight Dirac 720]

 

 

did you know a movie could completely PG in all other ways but dropping two f-bombs or one in sexual context will get it an automatic R?

 

I think that is kind of the point.  Parents want to know they can bring their kids to the movies without them being exposed to that kind of stuff.  Exposing kids to dirty language and degrading sexual content is what we have middle school for.

[Jennabun 1,578]

Hey feminist thread! Here's some more awesome feminist ponies to brighten your day

 

[source]

 

 

[source]

 

 

 

[source]

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

I think that is kind of the point.  Parents want to know they can bring their kids to the movies without them being exposed to that kind of stuff.  Exposing kids to dirty language and degrading sexual content is what we have middle school for.

 

I have news for you, most kids will hear worse just being in public around people.

 

Also, it doesn't even have to be sexual content or degrading. Someone could make a joke about "*bleeping* the toaster* and instinct R-rating despite the fact the average middle-schooler makes worse jokes in the halls. 

[Jennabun 1,578]

Here's a good video that explains why the word "feminism" has taken on a negative connotation and how that negative connotation is largely based off of myths:
 

 
All of Laci Green's videos are pretty good about talking about feminism in an accessible, light-hearted way while still managing to bring up some serious, controversial topics. Edited July 9, 2014 by Jennabun

[Zoop 8,384]

Which is why I consider it a failure.

 

There's where to many loopholes and cracks for it to ever be a valid gauge of anything in my eyes. It's pretty much the textbook example how NOT to design a gauge for anything. It's almost as bad a someone of the MPAAs content gauges(did you know a movie could completely PG in all other ways but dropping two f-bombs or one in sexual context will get it an automatic R?)

I don't typically get involved in these sorts of discussions (especially not here, of all places), but I figured I may as well throw my two cents in on this before fading back into obscurity.

 

As has already been mentioned, I don't think there are many that would praise the Bechdel test as being the single most important thing under the sun in determining the quality and worth of a movie... having said that though, I don't think it's right to simply brush it entirely aside due to the fact that it isn't perfect, as it does highlight some amusing trends. One such example is the fact that movies that pass it, on everage, have lower budgets than those that do not (and, to add to that, that movies that pass it tend to bring in more money than those that do not, as described here http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-dollar-and-cents-case-against-hollywoods-exclusion-of-women/). This doesn't come as a massive surprise though, considering things such as what is described here: http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/ and the fact that an extreme majority of creative positions in Hollywood are staffed by men (which is described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid_ceiling).

 

As for the complaints about MPAA ratings, again, no such system is perfect. Just as some movies may be penalized a bit too harsly at times, others have gotten away with a bit too much given the ratings that they've received. The same can honestly be said for any ratings system, really, though that's honestly a topic for another thread.

 

TL;DR: just because something isn't without flaws doesn't mean it isn't worth some degree of consideration. Perfection tends to be a rare thing no matter where you look for it.

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

I don't typically get involved in these sorts of discussions (especially not here, of all places), but I figured I may as well throw my two cents in on this before fading back into obscurity.

 

As has already been mentioned, I don't think there are many that would praise the Bechdel test as being the single most important thing under the sun in determining the quality and worth of a movie... having said that though, I don't think it's right to simply brush it entirely aside due to the fact that it isn't perfect, as it does highlight some amusing trends. One such example is the fact that movies that pass it, on everage, have lower budgets than those that do not (and, to add to that, that movies that pass it tend to bring in more money than those that do not, as described here http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-dollar-and-cents-case-against-hollywoods-exclusion-of-women/). This doesn't come as a massive surprise though, considering things such as what is described here: http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/ and the fact that an extreme majority of creative positions in Hollywood are staffed by men (which is described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid_ceiling).

 

As for the complaints about MPAA ratings, again, no such system is perfect. Just as some movies may be penalized a bit too harsly at times, others have gotten away with a bit too much given the ratings that they've received. The same can honestly be said for any ratings system, really, though that's honestly a topic for another thread.

 

TL;DR: just because something isn't without flaws doesn't mean it isn't worth some degree of consideration. Perfection tends to be a rare thing no matter where you look for it.

 

That's true, but again:

 

When there's movies like Tomb Raider, Terminator 2, and Alien with strong female leads that fail it that kind of makes the data questionable. It may be interesting for identifying trends but it I've seen it used as a measure of quality and a final answer instead of just a jumping off point. 

[Hive King 1,998]

4:00 to 5:16 are the parts you might like. 

 

Typically, I don't approve of violence to prove a feminist point, but Vegeta kind of had it coming

[crisahys 149]

I became feminist due to a documentary called, "Missrepresentation" about media portrayal of women. It actually brought great reason of why I highly disliked pop music and reality TV to begin with! Therefore I became feminist because of my liking to dismay the majority. I think that it's difficult being a feminist in general because of the rules and etiquette we used to abide by as little girls. I was told once as a child that, "It's not ladylike." Today, I wouldn't give a buck. 

 

[Jennabun 1,578]

I became feminist due to a documentary called, "Missrepresentation" about media portrayal of women. It actually brought great reason of why I highly disliked pop music and reality TV to begin with! Therefore I became feminist because of my liking to dismay the majority. I think that it's difficult being a feminist in general because of the rules and etiquette we used to abide by as little girls. I was told once as a child that, "It's not ladylike." Today, I wouldn't give a buck. 

 

That documentary is AMAZING! They're facebook page is really good too - they're always posting articles about women in the media and stuff. I would recommend it for anyone wanting some more information.

 

And I agree with girls being raised with a different sort of etiquette than boys are, and that can be harmful. I find that girls are often expected to act like cute, delicate flowers while boys can run around, be loud, wrestle each other, etc. and adults are just like, "LOL, Boys will be boys!" It's weird how we have very gendered views of human beings, even when they are very young and haven't even found themselves yet.

[Mushroom Mutate 69]

http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/30934.jpg

 

This sums it up in my opinion.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Mushroom Mutate

[Hive King 1,998]

@@Mushroom Mutate,

It's the pro feminism thread, get out

 

OT: What is your opinion on Blurred Lines? I think that it's not about rape, even if it sucks ass 

[Arctic Night 884]

I'm always reluctant to use the term "feminist," because internet neckbeards will immediately assume that I am the "oh my gerd men are evil" sort of feminist, which is not true at all. I advocate equal rights for women. That is the type of "feminist" I am, and the form that everyone should be.

 

I feel that a big step forward for the feminist movement would be to make it clear what it is we actually stand for. Being a feminist doesn't mean  that you believe all straight men are perverted, or that not supporting Hillary Clinton makes one "sexist."

 

This so called "modern feminism" that depicts all men as sexists or rapists is offensive to feminism as a serious practice of fighting for female equality in politics or the workplace.

 

Feminism

 

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

 

 

This is real feminism.

 

 

 

http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/30934.jpg

 

This sums it up in my opinion.

 

That would make perfect sense if anyone here was advocating "modern feminism," but they are not. This is the "pro-feminism" thread, where we advocate equality. If you oppose this for some reason, please step out.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

I have done some research and learned that when it comes to feminism I can be called a 'Gender Abolitionist ':

"This means that you feel the best way to destroy patriarchal oppression is to rid ourselves of misguided gender roles, and instead live in a society that does not make such marked assumptions about gender differences. The Gender Abolitionist is culturally radical, but rather conservative when it comes to sexual liberation and politics. You have a strong sense of human rights for all. In fact, you are actually a very moral person. You don't see people in terms of gender and are thus very philosophical in order to perceive the world in such a manner. You think people shouldn't identify others in terms of gender. When most people see a person, the first thing they think is "That person is a woman" or "That person is a man", but they do NOT think "That person is a short-fingernail". Most make someone's gender their IDENTITY, but fingernail length would never be considered part of their identity. A gender abolitionist would claim gender should be like fingernail length--it shouldn't be part of someone's identity. By making gender a part of identity, difference is emphasized and oppression is often justified. Thus, gender shouldn't be regarded to such a large extent by society. You are mostly concerned with seeing women become fully equalized with men by eliminating gender roles, as these roles oppress women."

 

Still, that doesn't mean my thoughts are perfectly in line with all feminists or even most. For example I see family as very important so a woman getting married and having children is not a bad thing, which for many feminists it is a bad thing. Yes it is not for everyone, and people should not be forced to take on such a role, but it is not bad either. Also I feel sexuality in general should be limited to someone you would be willing to marry or spend your life with.

Edited July 11, 2014 by EquestrianScholar

[Jennabun 1,578]

Still, that doesn't mean my thoughts are perfectly in line with all feminists or even most. For example I see family as very important so a woman getting married and having children is not a bad thing, which for many feminists it is a bad thing.

 

Oh no, reading this made me sad. Feminists don't think family is bad! Feminists say women ought to be free with their lives - this freedom gives women the choice to be anything from the president to a stay at home mom. I mean, I'm super-feminine - I bake, I work with children, and I want to get married and have a family. This doesn't make me ANY less of a feminist! Feminism is all about supporting all types of lifestyles, not just one! <3

 

I would say gender abolitionism definitely fits in the feminist advocacy somewhere, as the vast majority of feminism think gender roles are harmful to both men and women. But not all feminists want to abolish gender. I, myself, wouldn't classify as a gender abolitionist. I don't want gender to go away. I think gender is a big part of our identity. I just think gender roles ought to disappear - in other words, we shouldn't expect men to always be a certain way and women to be a certain way. I also want gender to be stop being seen as a black and white issue. I want trans men to be seen as MEN and trans women to be seen as WOMEN - no questions asked. I also want acceptance of people who don't identify within the man-woman spectrum (such as genderqueer individuals).

 

I guess I would say I want to get rid of a binary gender system, but not gender altogether.

 

 

What is your opinion on Blurred Lines? I think that it's not about rape, even if it sucks ass

 

I don't think he meant it to be about rape, but he sure says a lot of thinks that sound creepy and rape-y. For example, I think a lot of rapist justify their rape to themselves using terminology found in "Blurred Lines" - such as saying "She wanted it!" even if the rapist never had the victim's consent.

 

I also think it's super creepy how he keeps trying to talk the girl into sex. I mean, it's clear he's trying to persuade her here. It's not something they both automatically want - his whole song is pretty much is him begging for sex out of some sort of entitlement. That is pretty rape-y sounding too.

 

I don't like the message. I do have a little bit of a guilty pleasure for the beat and overall sound, but that doesn't make up for the creepiness lol.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Jennabun