S07:E17 - To Change a Changeling

[Jeric 46,851]

2 minutes ago, Stardust Balance said:

...Aging and mental process may vary on different species. Also 24? After Equestria Girls? Kinda of a- Oh Christ I'm using Equestria Girls to argue my point?!

Yeah. He was referred to as a baby in season one, so he is still a kid. 

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

Just now, Stardust Balance said:

Again, unlike the mares, Spike's a kid with a child's mind. Evidently he's not gonna mentally develop as much like the others.

But the CMC are kids, and they've had more development.

[Stardust Balance 7,739]

Just now, VG_Addict said:

But the CMC are kids, and they've had more development.

The thought and mental process of maturity between dragons and ponies might be different. We can only speculate. I just don't think Spike need necessarily mature as much as the others because the dragon aging process could work differently.

[Jeric 46,851]

2 minutes ago, VG_Addict said:

But the CMC are kids, and they've had more development.

Define development first. Then do an honest compare and contrast rather than one-liners that have limited substance. I almost feel like it's too the point that when you see a sock commercial on TV you complain that there isn't any Spike development in that.  

[PinkiePie97 913]

I liked this episode. I liked Starlight and Trixie in this episode, I had fun seeing the maulwurf beat itself up, and I'm glad they were able to help Pharynx.

[ShootingStar159 2,156]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

It may be feel contrived to you, but when I was a Moderator and Admin here, and on another Forum, I got to see this happen weekly from generally decent people. It's called rushing conflict resolution, and it happens all the time -- let the perpetrators of it are rarely villainous -- just wrong. Yet another genius element of this episode. Couple that with the fact that the rest of the hive acted like a functional echo chamber and ... what you saw is how 70% of the population would act in the same situation. It's what happens with groupthink, anchoring, and selective accessibility. 

Most of the people you meet in your life, are Starlight in this episode. 

How do I put this? I'm not trying to say this ruined the episode, I think it's one of the better in the season. I'm not saying that Starlight has been ruined, or that Starlight is ooc because her rebellious streak would make her more likely to go against group think. That's entitled and stubborn thinking; in fact I'd say the fact she's succeptible to groupthink means she losing some of her cynicism of other people.

All I'm saying is that Starlight, and Trixie too for that matter, not giving Pharanx a chance after all the chances they've been given... I. Just. Don't. Like it. Its not a matter of right or wrong, it's about personal preference, and I would have preferred that Trixie and Starlight used what they had learned and helped made things better rather than ignoring all they had learned and only made things worse.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

50 minutes ago, Truffles said:

And speaking of politics, I didn't miss the subtext of showing that lefty, peace-loving types still have to have some kind of military to keep them safe. As has been stated already there are a multitude of themes presented here, and digging deeper it may be one of them is this episode is crying out for a return to middle-of-the-road politics, with Pharynx and Chrysalis' former group representing far right xenophobes and the new changelings representing far-left tree-hugging pansies. They portrayal is stereotypical, at least for the reformed changelings, but I think the episode did that to make sure it got the point across.

Though honestly I watch this show to escape politics, so I'm not entirely sure it's a good thing... <_<

Interestingly, I hadn't actually thought of the episode that way when I first saw it. I don't know, the idea that a society should maintain some means of protecting its members and property from external threats doesn't seem too hard to accept, unless the changelings are complete pacifists. But the issue would then be what such means is appropriate, and I can see how it might not be desirable to go along with Pharnyx's rhetoric and attitude of being hardened aggressive warriors and having to drastically alter their day-to-day life in order to prevent any possible means of a threat entering.

While we're mentioning real-life politics, this dilemma reminds me a little of how many U.S. politicians, pundits, etc. seem to equate "national defense" and "keeping Americans safe" with aggressive posturing, antagonizing other non-allied countries, meddling in other countries' internal affairs - up to and including military intervention, engaging in mass surveillance without obtaining individualized warrants on the basis of individualized suspicion, etc. I would think that national defense could be achieved (and even achieved better) without doing such things.

[Truffles 2,033]

56 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

And the beginning stated they both agreed to visit Thorax as a surprise, suggesting it was impromptu.

49 minutes ago, Jeric said:

but in general those organic and spontaneous moments happen frequently enough for me to not see anything wrong with Spike not being there. Now to someone who is a Spike fan, of course they would be more likely to be upset he wasn't included. 

33 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Ha! That fits the joke I was going for in my OP ...

Indeed, as soon as they said they were doing a surprise visit to Thorax's hive, I assumed they ditched Spike just like you kidded about. 

 

26 minutes ago, Jeric said:

That speech is really interesting, because it may be the first time we have seen signs of Starlight being an inspirational leader to a larger group, something she would have had to be decent at to have pulled off her Cutie Mark free cult. It was kinda refreshing to see that slightly different side of her, as she used her ability to convince a group for something decent

Absolutely. It made the most sense for Starlight to give the speech here. She can be incredibly charismatic when she really wants to be.

 

10 minutes ago, Stardust Balance said:

Again, unlike the mares, Spike's a kid with a child's mind. Evidently he's not gonna mentally develop as much like the others.

I generally see him differently. He's a kid with an adult mind. He hangs out with and relates to adults far more often than he does with the foals around town. If anything, his mind is advancing faster than his physical age.

However, I still put him at a young to middle teen by now in the series. Unless they specifically state his age in an episode, no one is ever going to convince me otherwise. 

 

21 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

In ABU, Trixie had an alibi. Trixie's style of magic is notoriously weak for a unicorn, and Starlight helped her study more complex magic. Transfiguring items into teacups and magically relocating the castle round table were such huge accomplishments for her, she got overexcited.

---

 

Yes, that's true. How poorly she treated Starlight bothered me nonetheless, at least after she lost the map table, anyway. Before that her antics didn't seem so mean, and all I could think about was how much of a jerk she came off as, with her being so self-centered around her supposed best friend. Even to the point of having the audacity to complain about not getting any of the snacks she herself ruined or her "You never get mad at me" comment. =P

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

I wouldn't go that far. In a little over a week I will be hanging out with one of the Admins here in Orlando, and that doesn't mean that I am not close or closer with anyone else that is in our friendship group just because they are absent. Adults don't always hang out as a unified group. 

While that is typically true, the issue here is that it's for sorting a problem with Thorax, and unless she just isn't that close to Spike it simply doesn't make since to not bring him along as he is Thorax's closest friend. Trixie only came along because she is Starlight's best friend, despite her claims of usefulness.  

Edited September 2, 2017 by Ganondox

[JH24 385]

That was a nice episode. Not the best for me personally, but it still had a lot of enjoyable moments. I liked how it showed that while peace and understanding are very important, you mustn't loose sight of other things that are also important. I was a little worried the moral would be one-sided, but I was glad that was not the case.

The feelings forum was one of my favorite parts. Some moments in the episode were just hilarious.

Only thing that bothered me was the absence of Spike. It wasn't a friendship mission, they were just visiting as friends. No reason to leave Spike out of it.   

Edited September 2, 2017 by JH24

[Dark Qiviut 22,393]

Pharynx has an excellent point about what's going on in Thorax's hive. Even though the swarm isn't predatory anymore, it used to protect itself easily thanks to how Chrysalis raised them. Now that they changed, they don't care about either defense or fighting and share a false sense of security for their hive. She may be gone, but the dangers haven't.

[Truffles 2,033]

47 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

I don't know, the idea that a society should maintain some means of protecting its members and property from external threats doesn't seem too hard to accept, unless the changelings are complete pacifists.

My thinking was the changelings that follow Thorax did become complete pacifists because he was a pacifist and was their leader. He likely told them how he stood aside during the attack on Canterlot, not wanting to resort to any violence. If they trust them as their leader, they could have adopted that stance for how they lived their own lives.

Admittedly, once the monster attacks started happening, it doesn't seem plausible - with Pharynx around to offer an alternative - they would continue to keep wanting to sit around and do artsy stuff and talk about their feelings with their hive getting destroyed. There seems to be a disconnect in the initial set-up of the plot we are supposed to overlook, I guess.

I suppose if Pharynx's rhetoric was so over-the-top and xenophobic, they might just dismiss everything he says. But he didn't seem that extreme in the episode. I'll have to watch it again to see if I feel any differently about him on a second viewing.

 

47 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

I would think that national defense could be achieved (and even achieved better) without doing such things.

I guess there is a balance between spying on your enemies (and friends, apparently <_< ) and allowing the wool to be pulled over your eyes because you as a country aren't paying attention to what other countries are doing. I don't have the answer to what the balance is; there is an argument to be made by how things work in nature that aggressive posturing works to avoid greater conflict, but then again we're not bears or wolverines or such. Certainly it doesn't make you popular on the world, there would be no terrorism if the jihadists could point to and embellish examples from the past.

It's the age old question - is it better to rule by fear or rule by being respected? The old and new changeling cultures certainly are a working example of this dilemma.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Truffles

[CypherHoof 26,483]

1 minute ago, Truffles said:

My thinking was the changelings that follow Thorax did become complete pacifists because he was a pacifist and was their leader. He likely told them how he stood aside during the attack on Canterlot, not wanting to resort to any violence. If they trust them as their leader, they could have adopted that stance for how they lived their own lives.

Admittedly, once the monster attacks started happening, it doesn't seem plausible with Pharynx around to offer an alternative they would continue to keep wanting to sit around and do artsy stuff and talk about their feelings with their hive getting destroyed. There seems to be a disconnect in the initial set-up of the plot we are supposed to overlook, I guess.

Also have to wonder how much a threat to the hive the mole monster actually was; prior to their glitterbug conversion, the changelings apparently had a rather negative effect on the vegetation around their hive, and I don't really see what significant use they have for it now. If the mole monster was largely interested in the vegetation, it may well have simply eaten the better growing areas then moved on to somewhere where there were more - it must take a fair bit of vegetation to keep a creature that large fed, and you would presume mole monsters that have lived to reproduce in the past are the ones that have learned to avoid changeling hives whenever possible.

In general, Pharynx is not wrong - the Hive needs to be able to defend itself, and even against elements that are intelligent enough to talk past grievances out with, will probably need to negotiate from a position of defensive strength - but I suspect this particular threat is more of a nuisance...

 

[Jeric 46,851]

44 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

While that is typically true, the issue here is that it's for sorting a problem with Thorax, and unless she just isn't that close to Spike it simply doesn't make since to not bring him along as he is Thorax's closest friend. Trixie only came along because she is Starlight's best friend, despite her claims of usefulness.  

In universe it was just a friendly visit. It just so happened that there was still an unresolved issue when they got there. 

Narratively, there's an opportunity cost, and the potential to undermine the lesson by including Spike. 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

9 minutes ago, Truffles said:

I suppose if Pharynx's rhetoric was so over-the-top and xenophobic, they might just dismiss everything he says. But he didn't seem that extreme in the episode. I'll have to watch it again to see if I feel any differently about him on a second viewing.

Oh, no, if I recall the episode correctly, I don't think that Pharynx's views are particularly extreme, and it seems like Pharynx and the rest of the changelings came to a good agreement by the end of the episode. I think it might be, as you suggested, that if the changelings were complete pacifists before, then Pharynx would look rather extreme by comparison.

[Truffles 2,033]

2 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Also have to wonder how much a threat to the hive the mole monster actually was; prior to their glitterbug conversion, the changelings apparently had a rather negative effect on the vegetation around their hive, and I don't really see what significant use they have for it now. If the mole monster was largely interested in the vegetation, it may well have simply eaten the better growing areas then moved on to somewhere where there were more - it must take a fair bit of vegetation to keep a creature that large fed, and you would presume mole monsters that have lived to reproduce in the past are the ones that have learned to avoid changeling hives whenever possible.

In general, Pharynx is not wrong - the Hive needs to be able to defend itself, and even against elements that are intelligent enough to talk past grievances out with, will probably need to negotiate from a position of defensive strength - but I suspect this particular threat is more of a nuisance...

 

Indeed, the monster didn't seem interested in them as much as it was interested in their landscaping. It seems like the initial plan to lure it away by strategically placing those plants would have worked and your point that is was more of a nuisance than a real threat is correct.

Which makes me wonder why Pharynx even bothered to go off an fight it since it was actually doing him a favor by making the hive look more like that of the old one he loved so much. I guess he went because of his last remaining bit of loyalty to the hive, even if he had none for the individuals in it. (And perhaps it was just plain fun for him to fight a big monster, lol.)

 

4 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Narratively, there's an opportunity cost, and the potential to undermine the lesson by including Spike.

Indeed, a writer on their toes with Spike in the episode would have remembered he already went through this exact same thing where he threw a "bad" changeling under the bus, and would have stopped that complication right then and there.

It might be fun for the audience, however, to do a thought experiment where he does stop Starlight from trying to get Pharynx out and see whether any of the ideas presented after that point in the story could still have been achieved with the backend of the story undergoing such a radical change. Something fun for me to do after I go to bed tonight! =D

[Ganondox 899]

3 hours ago, Truffles said:

 For example she wasn't as bad as she was here as she was in "All Bottled Up," but even then I remember thinking during that episode she was starting to get on my nerves.

This sentence needs to be put and life support and reconstructed, because I still can't parse what you were attempting to say. I assume it's supposed to say "she wasn't as bad in "All Bottled Up" as she is here", but I'm still not sure. 

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

In universe it was just a friendly visit. It just so happened that there was still an unresolved issue when they got there. 

Narratively, there's an opportunity cost, and the potential to undermine the lesson by including Spike. 

I get the narrative stuff (Spike would have just gotten in the way and upset the dynamics going on), but I don't quite agree with the in-universe explanation, as they did know about the maulwurf problem. I thought they had come for the renegade changeling problem, but I misremembered. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Ganondox

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

You know that scene where the changelings were performing Shakespeare?

Well, Thorax’s VA performed Shakespeare.

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

Also have to wonder how much a threat to the hive the mole monster actually was; prior to their glitterbug conversion, the changelings apparently had a rather negative effect on the vegetation around their hive, and I don't really see what significant use they have for it now. If the mole monster was largely interested in the vegetation, it may well have simply eaten the better growing areas then moved on to somewhere where there were more - it must take a fair bit of vegetation to keep a creature that large fed, and you would presume mole monsters that have lived to reproduce in the past are the ones that have learned to avoid changeling hives whenever possible.

In general, Pharynx is not wrong - the Hive needs to be able to defend itself, and even against elements that are intelligent enough to talk past grievances out with, will probably need to negotiate from a position of defensive strength - but I suspect this particular threat is more of a nuisance...

 

I dunno, maybe they need vegetation to feed the bugs they eat. 

[DJ_Bonebraker 183]

3 hours ago, Jeric said:

That speech is really interesting, because it may be the first time we have seen signs of Starlight being an inspirational leader to a larger group, something she would have had to be decent at to have pulled off her Cutie Mark free cult. It was kinda refreshing to see that slightly different side of her, as she used her ability to convince a group for something decent. 

I can only imagine what she would have been thinking as they started off to find Salt Big, believing that she failed to inspire for a good cause. 

That speech was one of my favorite moments in the episode:  I mean just the other day we have someone posting in the forum about how Starlight has essentially lost her unique personality to become more or less a Twilight clone, yet here we have her do something very similar to what she would have done pre-reformation (heck, she even SOUNDED like her old self), yet she was doing it for a GOOD cause, like she's finally starting to get her confidence back & step out from her mentor's shadow & find her own way of spreading friendship.

I also like how she managed to avoid the temptation to try solving the problem with magic this time around.

Trixie was entertaining as usual:  I was expecting some prime cuts of ham & scenery chewing from her, and she did not disappoint (of course we also got some LITERAL scenery chewing courtesy of Pharynx).  Trix definitely seems to be shaping up as a Byronic/anti-hero:  She seems to mean well, but her ego & other flaws tend to get in the way, even if she does come around in the end. I'm definitely looking forward to her getting more development as a character.

Pharynx was an awesome source of prime snark & was more savage than Macho Man Randy, and I'm glad that both him & the rest of the swarm were able to come around & see that both sides had valid points.  Definitely going to be watching this one again.

[Thrond 3,263]

I wasn't super into this one. There's plenty of funny dialogue to be found around here, but I never cared enough about Pharynx to really be invested in the plot. Trixie and Starlight seem to just be here to mess everything up, and I don't quite know what the point of that is. The moral also didn't seem super applicable to the target audience, and I found a few plot elements here unconvincing, like Pharynx's good side and Thorax not seeing any need for self-defense. At least it's funny, though. 

More detailed thoughts can be found in my review, here. 

Additional thoughts:

I was under the impression that the changelings chose to share love because they were always nearly starving and were desperate for any alternative, so why would Pharynx prefer the old way? That's another thing which I found unconvincing. 

Why would Thorax talk as if it were a group of changelings who hadn't transformed if it were really just his brother all along? I'd rather this show not try to be serialized if it's going to lie to us. 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

What this episode really succeeded in was characterization, everyone was their best selves her, Starlight wasn't a "Twilight clone" (though I would wager she never was) she was doing her own thing, acting on her own and being funny and real. Trixie was the snarky agitating yet endearing show pony that makes us like her so much, Thorax was caring and soft, but showed signs of his newfound assertiveness. And Pharynx was a badass all around, cool voice, more complex than you would at first imagine. Kevin Lapinn wrote Honest Apple before this, this is such a wild improvement, a specialty he sure has is making something feel important while incorporating fantastic character interactions and dialogue.

I also always prefer the more serious episodes when they incorporate comedy as well.

3 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I wasn't super into this one. There's plenty of funny dialogue to be found around here, but I never cared enough about Pharynx to really be invested in the plot. Trixie and Starlight seem to just be here to mess everything up, and I don't quite know what the point of that is. The moral also didn't seem super applicable to the target audience, and I found a few plot elements here unconvincing, like Pharynx's good side and Thorax not seeing any need for self-defense. At least it's funny, though. 

More detailed thoughts can be found in my review, here. 

Additional thoughts:

I was under the impression that the changelings chose to share love because they were always nearly starving and were desperate for any alternative, so why would Pharynx prefer the old way? That's another thing which I found unconvincing. 

Why would Thorax talk as if it were a group of changelings who hadn't transformed if it were really just his brother all along? I'd rather this show not try to be serialized if it's going to lie to us. 

The show didn't "lie to us"

They bring it up at the timestamp, we didn't NEED to see him yell and convince the other renegades as it is less personal than his actual brother (who was also high ranking in Chrysalis forces)

Edited September 2, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[Thrond 3,263]

2 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

The show didn't "lie to us"

They bring it up at the timestamp, we didn't NEED to see him yell at the other changelings, it would be more pointless in my opinion.

I forgot about that detail. I probably misinterpreted that part of "Triple Threat" as foreshadowing because I read this episode's synopsis ahead of time. 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

I forgot about that detail. I probably misinterpreted that part of "Triple Threat" as foreshadowing because I read this episode's synopsis ahead of time. 

I also was expecting it to be foreshadowing a larger plot, but I am satisfied with a more personal story with Thorax as he is my favorite side character at this point.

[Thrond 3,263]

Just now, Ryanmahaffe said:

I also was expecting it to be foreshadowing a larger plot, but I am satisfied with a more personal story with Thorax as he is my favorite side character at this point.

In theory I would be too but I didn't find Thorax's part in this very satisfying.