S08:E25+26 - School Raze

[Dethde 20]

Just now, Ganondox said:

Look, how you look is not my responsibility. I’m just replying to what you said. The implicitions of what you said is your own. I didn’t make anything up or twist anything. If you want me to stop, you gotta stop making these claims. Take some responsibility for yourself.

I don’t want you to change your wording (and how am supposed to tell you what to say when you just claim I misinterpret what you said anyway?). You said what you said, I commented on it, and that’s the end of it. I’m frankly tired of argueing with you. I don’t care about your opinion, you can believe Cozy Glow is autistic against all evidence all you want, I was just challenging your claim. 

She doesn’t have any autistic symptoms though. As you could come up with was that she is obsessed when she’s really just ambitious. 

You know what I don’t appreciate? People who constantly whine about political correctness. As a matter of fact, I can’t take people who complain about that seriously when they then complain about being misrepresented. Words are words, you can’t have it both ways. 

Multiple things wrong, first off, "Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people." is extremely straight forward, in that statement you're pretty much saying "You thinking racism is related to bad social skills doesn't mean autism impacts people that way", i never stated that racism is a reflection of bad social skills, painting me in that way is just insulting. And, you were the first to bring up ending the argument, so, if you disagree to end it, very well.

So this argument was pointless? You brought up that you didn't like the way i worded it and that Cozy Glow wasn't autistic, and then you don't want me to change it? I have literally said that i believe Cozy Glow is most likely not autistic already, i'm asking for a wording change, if you don't want to give one, that's that.

She feels obsessed, she repeatedly lies, i'm not an expert on autism, and like i've said, if you want me to change the wording that's perfectly fine.

But weren't you the first to whine about political correctness? You whined about me using "Autism Victim", i never whined about political correctness, i'm pretty sure that was you the entire time.

[Dynamo Pad 11,481]

I just finished watching it and wow! That was a crazy way to end on as a finale.

Spoiler

It's interesting to see Cozy Glow as Twilight's friendship assistant. I know that Cozy helped out and appeared in multiple episodes throughout the season. However, I wonder how much time has passed throughout this season. I would have to imagine that it would be around the end of the first year at the school of friendship. I like how we get to see Cloudsdale once again after not seeing it for such a long time. I also like how we get to see the cloud walking spell being used. It was a rather odd that the spell wasn't actually named the cloud walking spell. I was surprised to see the magic suddenly failed out of nowhere. The meeting with Celestia and Luna was interesting and I like how Starswirl was able to come up with an explanation of what was going on. I also like how everyone mentioned Tirek, since we haven't seen him for a couple of seasons. It was rather interesting that we get to see Twilight, Spike and the others head to Tartarus to confront Tirek. I like how we get to see certain creatures like the cockatrice, the bugbear and other creatures from previous seasons. It was a little saddening to actually see them locked up in cages, since they didn't seems so harmless.

It was interesting to see Neighsay appearing in the finale. I guess it make sense, since he would try to run the school as he intended, while Twilight was away. What I didn't expect was to see Cozy Glow was the behind all of the loss of magic. In the beginning, I had assumed that Cozy and Neighsay were in cahoots over this whole thing. Since Neighsay had a problem with non ponies and such, I would have thought Cozy Glow was his accomplice. I remember reading a topic on Equestria Daily about the introduction to Cozy Glow and I think they said she was the villain for the finale. I wondered how she could be a villain, but it did make a lot of sense. She used the CMC into learning the magic of friendship and frames them. All to help them get enrolled into the school. She even helped Flim and Flam in getting the pages of Twilight's book to open Friendship University. There were other things that Cozy was involved with, but it did make sense. Her cutiemark is a chess piece. Every move she made had gotten her one step closer to her ultimate goal/end game.

What I didn't expect was that she was Tirek's protege in the whole scheme of things. At first, I was a little skeptic, since Tirek isn't the type of individual who would help a pony. However, I understood why he would do it, since he said draining the world of magic and trapping the mane 6 inspired Tirek. I think it was mentioned that Tirek and Cozy were pen pals. If that were the case, then how did they become pen pals in the first place? I was surprised at first when Sandbar agreed with Neighsay, but I'm glad he was able to escape and get help to save his friends. I was shocked when I saw that Cozy had gone and trapped Starlight. However, this really shows that just about anyone can be captured and/or stopped. I was glad to see the CMC tried to help in stopping Cozy, but it was disheartening that they were stopped by Cozy. I was even surprised at how Cozy and the students had turned on Neighsay. Even Cozy's words and the lessens that Twilight had taught the students had made the students rally together to take Neighsay down was insane. It was great to see the student 6 save Neighsay and how he went to gather help to backup the students. 

I found it funny how Pinkie managed to get Tirek's help in allowing Twilight and the others to escape Tartarus. I like how the Tree of Harmony managed to save Starlight and the student 6. I liked how the artifacts that were seen in A Matter of Principals had made a return. I honestly thought that the students were going to be the new bearers for the elements of harmony. I also thought that the artifacts they used were going to be the sort of necklaces the mane 6 use, but it's saddening that it didn't happen. It was surprising to see that Cozy was taken to Tararus. I was expecting the guards to put her away in a jail or something like that. I guess with everything she did had resulted in that sort of capital punishment. Even then I was stunned with how the finale ended on that type of cliffhanger. Just the idea of Cozy asking if Tirek wanted to be friends makes me wonder what will happen in season 9. Overall, I don't think there has been a season finale that has ended like that, so it was an interesting way to end on that note.

 I really liked the finale and season 9, as well. I liked the student 6 throughout the season. In the first half, it felt like they were just there and didn't have much development. In the second half, I felt like I got to connect with each of them on a certain level. I also liked how Starlight, the mane 6, Spike and others got a good amount of development. I liked the locations that were visited, returning characters and new characters. All in all, I found this finale and season to be interesting and enjoyable. I'm really looking forward to season 9 has to offer in the future.  

 

[Ganondox 899]

22 minutes ago, twichlove said:

Multiple things wrong, first off, "Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people." is extremely straight forward, in that statement you're pretty much saying "You thinking racism is related to bad social skills doesn't mean autism impacts people that way", i never stated that racism is a reflection of bad social skills, painting me in that way is just insulting. And, you were the first to bring up ending the argument, so, if you disagree to end it, very well.

So this argument was pointless? You brought up that you didn't like the way i worded it and that Cozy Glow wasn't autistic, and then you don't want me to change it? I have literally said that i believe Cozy Glow is most likely not autistic already, i'm asking for a wording change, if you don't want to give one, that's that.

She feels obsessed, she repeatedly lies, i'm not an expert on autism, and like i've said, if you want me to change the wording that's perfectly fine.

But weren't you the first to whine about political correctness? You whined about me using "Autism Victim", i never whined about political correctness, i'm pretty sure that was you the entire time.

Yes you did. You claimed Cozy Glow wasn’t a model student based on such. Any other discussion of what model student could mean is irrelevant based on context. This is exactly what you said:

”in fact if she was extremely good at socializing, she would have refrained from expressing racism in the first place.”

Maybe you differ between being racist and expressing it ever, but either way it’s not a reflection of social ability. You’re only insulting yourself by taking offensive to me paraphrasing your own words, I never called you racist or anything. 

We’re not even arguing about it anymore, you’re just taking offense to what I said. I am so done with this, but you haven’t ended on a note that I just leave. 

What part of I don’t want you to change the wording don’t you understand? It’s the idea you are expressing that I object to, and replacing autism with some other word isn’t going to change that. Cozy Glow is NOT innocent, she knew what she was doing and suffered the consequences for such. You can’t just excuse evil by trying to write it off as mental illness, it betrays a misunderstanding of mental illness and let’s evil go unchallenged. You are entitled to your opinion, but you also need to accept the consequences for expressing your viewpoint.

I did not whine about political correctness, quite the opposite. I politely requested for you to change your language, and you learned something in the process. I believe people should try to accommodate others, so I have nothing against political correctness. You in turn whined about political correctness in response, which was fine as it lead to me explaining WHY it’s objectionable.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Ganondox

[Dethde 20]

Just now, Ganondox said:

1. Yes you did. You claimed Cozy Glow wasn’t a model student based on such. Any other discussion of what model student could mean is irrelevant based on context. This is exactly what you said:

”in fact if she was extremely good at socializing, she would have refrained from expressing racism in the first place.”

You’re only insulting yourself by taking offensive to me paraphrasing your own words, I never called you racist or anything. 

We’re not even arguing about it anymore, you’re just taking offense to what I said. I am so done with this, but you haven’t ended on a note that I just leave. 

What part of I don’t want you to change the wording don’t you understand? It’s the idea you are expressing that I object to, and replacing autism with some other word isn’t going to change that. Cozy Glow is NOT innocent, she knew what she was doing and suffered the consequences for such. You can’t just excuse evil by trying to write it off as mental illness, it betrays a misunderstanding of mental illness and let’s evil go unchallenged. You are entitled to your opinion, but you also need to accept the consequences for expressing your viewpoint.

I did not whine about political correctness, quite the opposite. I politely requested for you to change your language, and you learned something in the process. I believe people should try to accommodate others, so I have nothing against political correctness. You in turn whined about political correctness in response, which was fine as it lead to me explaining WHY it’s objectionable.

 

”in fact if she was extremely good at socializing, she would have refrained from expressing racism in the first place.” in context was that she would have hid her racism instead of showing it in front of anyone, not that racism was a reflection of bad social skills? It was extremely obvious, why would i insult everyone who weren't good at socializing by calling them racist?

To end an argument you can either accept to end it, or to just not reply, arguing again doesn't work in your favor.

You're again implying my entire point was that she's autistic so she's free from all evil, that is not the point, if you want to see my points for why i didn't enjoy her punishment, read my other replies, if you don't want to change the wording, what was your point of arguing anyways? you had the point of me putting out my opinion of her being autistic being wrongful as it'll lead others to think of autism to be similar of cozy glow's mentality, and that point clearly isn't valid anymore as you're refusing to give me a rewording option. "you also need to accept the consequences for expressing your viewpoint." Exactly, so if you start an argument, accept that you'll need to end it.

"Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously." Is one of the worst ways to request, it's not being polite, it's being rudely sly, if you say that was polite, me saying :

"Why does stating that people are victims of a crippling disorder make it hard to take my points seriously? Is that just something you personally have trouble with or.."

and:
"I don't see why using the term victim is wrongful here, they've suffered from a neurological disorder that impacts their lives, I am by no means an expert, however if people do take offense in a verbal inaccuracy, i apologize, but you don't have to be politically correct to be an expert, it's comparable to me calling you an amateur at understanding opinions due to you misusing the term objectively."

Would have been more than polite, i attempted to stay polite through out this entire conversation, to make it easier for both of us, but you wording your words that way didn't help either of us, this is getting off topic, if you want to continue this conversation, private message me.

[Ganondox 899]

43 minutes ago, twichlove said:

”in fact if she was extremely good at socializing, she would have refrained from expressing racism in the first place.” in context was that she would have hid her racism instead of showing it in front of anyone, not that racism was a reflection of bad social skills? It was extremely obvious, why would i insult everyone who weren't good at socializing by calling them racist?

To end an argument you can either accept to end it, or to just not reply, arguing again doesn't work in your favor.

You're again implying my entire point was that she's autistic so she's free from all evil, that is not the point, if you want to see my points for why i didn't enjoy her punishment, read my other replies, if you don't want to change the wording, what was your point of arguing anyways? you had the point of me putting out my opinion of her being autistic being wrongful as it'll lead others to think of autism to be similar of cozy glow's mentality, and that point clearly isn't valid anymore as you're refusing to give me a rewording option. "you also need to accept the consequences for expressing your viewpoint." Exactly, so if you start an argument, accept that you'll need to end it.

"Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously." Is one of the worst ways to request, it's not being polite, it's being rudely sly, if you say that was polite, me saying :

"Why does stating that people are victims of a crippling disorder make it hard to take my points seriously? Is that just something you personally have trouble with or.."

and:
"I don't see why using the term victim is wrongful here, they've suffered from a neurological disorder that impacts their lives, I am by no means an expert, however if people do take offense in a verbal inaccuracy, i apologize, but you don't have to be politically correct to be an expert, it's comparable to me calling you an amateur at understanding opinions due to you misusing the term objectively."

Would have been more than polite, i attempted to stay polite through out this entire conversation, to make it easier for both of us, but you wording your words that way didn't help either of us, this is getting off topic, if you want to continue this conversation, private message me.

The thing you’re not getting is that “hiding her racism” wouldn’t have helped her. She said racist things because in the situations it helped her, that’s true for literally every situation where she said something racist. As such, it demonstrated social skill. So what it offended certain characters? She doesn’t care, she still got what she wanted, and that has nothing to do with autism.

The argument will end once it reaches a resolution. You’re not driving it towards resolution, you’re just arguing about the argument which goes absolutely nowhere.

I READ all your replies. Your arguments made little sense, I'm going to be blunt but your original post was very poorly articulated, so I can’t even argue with that. The one thing I got out of it that did make sense is you found Cozy Glow more helpless and innocent or something like that, stuff about her being a filly whose still growing and thus shouldn’t be punished so harshly (and that supposedly what Starlight did was worse, but that's irrelevant). Is that assessment incorrect? The reason you’re taking offense to my analysis is because you don’t see evil as evil, you see it as a symptom of her being delusional or something, but I’m telling it as it is, not necessarily as you intended. She's not a problem child, she's a problem. 

You don’t need to change your wording, you said what you meant. I’m not going to tell you what to say, it’s  your view, not mine. Everyone else can just read the commentary and come to their own conclusions. Also, I didn’t start the argument, you did. Look at many other people challenged you. I’ve been trying to end it, you just won’t back off. 

Is it rude to tell a man that you can’t take a man seriously because he’s wearing a silly hat? My objection was because it was a mischaracterization, not merely because it's potentially offensive, what else should I have said? You only proclaimed yourself as polite, you didn't offer alternatives. You chose to take offense, even when you conceded in the end.

And no, I’m not going to move this to PMs because I DON’T want to continue this non-argument, literally the only reason I’m continuing is because it’s in a public space so other people maybe be following it. I’m not leaving it on the note you left it on as it’s pretty much just you attacking me because you didn’t like the way I replied. Should I not defend what I said when I find no flaw with it? If you really want to move it to PMs you can go PM me, but I'll probably ignore it us you're actually saying something worth disucssing. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Ganondox

[Dethde 20]

1 minute ago, Ganondox said:

The thing you’re not getting is that “hiding her racism” wouldn’t have helped her. She said racist things because in the situations it helped her, that’s true for literally every situation where she said something racist. As such, it demonstrated social skill. So what it offended certain characters? She doesn’t care, she still got what she wanted, and that has nothing to do with autism.

The argument will end once it reaches a resolution. You’re not driving it towards resolution, you’re just arguing about the argument which goes absolutely nowhere.

I READ all your replies. Your arguments made no sense, so I can’t argue with that. The one thing I got out of it that did make sense is you found Cozy Glow more helpless and innocent or something like that, stuff about her being a filly whose still growing and thus shouldn’t be punished so harshly. Is that incorrect? The reason you’re taking offense to my analysis is because you don’t see evil as evil, you see it as a symptom of her being delusional or something, but I’m telling it as it is, not necessarily as you intended.

You don’t need to change your wording, you said what you meant. I’m not going to tell you what to say, it’s  your view, not mine. Everyone else can just read the commentary and come to their own conclusions. Also, I didn’t start the argument, you did. Look at many other people challenged you. I’ve been trying to end it, you just won’t back off. 

Is it rude to tell a man that you can’t take a man seriously because he’s wearing a silly hat? You chose to take offense, even when you conceded in the end.

And no, I’m not going to move this to PMs because I DON’T want to continue this non-argument, literally the only reason I’m continuing is because it’s in a public space so other people maybe be following it. I’m not leaving it on the note you left it on.

Spoiler

She wouldn't have been seen as suspicious by the Student six, and would have definitely helped her case, my point was that she wasn't a master at socializing, yet you twist that into "Autistic people are racist." Which paints me in an awful way, and i was displeased at that?

So you clearly don't want this argument to end, sure, keep wording your statements that way, doesn't help either of us, but sure, your decision.

You clearly didn't get anything out of the replies if you're summing it up as "No sense and cozy glow is a filly", you're still not getting it, You're taking two words out of my entire argument and emphasizing it to the point where that's all you can see: "feels autistic".

So what IS your reason for this argument? You said that you're not trying to change my opinion, You said that you were doing this so that people don't misunderstand or misuse the term autistic, but you're contradicting both of those. You definitely did start the argument, 

"While I disagree with pretty much everything you said, the one thing I’m going to comment on is your claim that Cozy Glow feels autistic. I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion, she’s about as far from autistic as you can get as it would be nigh impossible for someone with autism to manipulate crowds like she did. Her problem is not that she doesn’t understand friendship (yes, I know what Twilight said, but context), she had them all fooled, it’s that she’s freaking evil. There is nothing autistic about that. " Was entirely in your wording. Does other people disagreeing about part of my statement mean anything? No, you absolutely have not tried to end it, i've listed the ways to end an argument, Silence, or to work it out in pms.

The offense comes in with the wording, "Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously." Is a fantastic way to act rudely sly, funny thing, i DID concede my point of Cozy Glow feeling autistic, as the more i looked at it the more things didn't match, the reason this is still happening is due to wording, so i'm proposing to calm down, and settle this argument in DMS

So what you mean is you want to continue flooding this page with arguments so that other people can see and this argument when all it's doing is getting the page more and more off topic? Honestly, this isn't working out for either of us, so just agree to disagree, if this is a bad way to end this conversation for you, i apologize, if you have any other way to solve this argument without infinite loops of replies, flooding the discussion, or provoking even more negative emotions, please do try.

 

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

She wouldn't have been seen as suspicious by the Student six, and would have definitely helped her case, my point was that she wasn't a master at socializing, yet you twist that into "Autistic people are racist." Which paints me in an awful way, and i was displeased at that?

So you clearly don't want this argument to end, sure, keep wording your statements that way, doesn't help either of us, but sure, your decision.

You clearly didn't get anything out of the replies if you're summing it up as "No sense and cozy glow is a filly", you're still not getting it, You're taking two words out of my entire argument and emphasizing it to the point where that's all you can see: "feels autistic".

So what IS your reason for this argument? You said that you're not trying to change my opinion, You said that you were doing this so that people don't misunderstand or misuse the term autistic, but you're contradicting both of those. You definitely did start the argument, 

"While I disagree with pretty much everything you said, the one thing I’m going to comment on is your claim that Cozy Glow feels autistic. I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion, she’s about as far from autistic as you can get as it would be nigh impossible for someone with autism to manipulate crowds like she did. Her problem is not that she doesn’t understand friendship (yes, I know what Twilight said, but context), she had them all fooled, it’s that she’s freaking evil. There is nothing autistic about that. " Was entirely in your wording. Does other people disagreeing about part of my statement mean anything? No, you absolutely have not tried to end it, i've listed the ways to end an argument, Silence, or to work it out in pms.

The offense comes in with the wording, "Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously." Is a fantastic way to act rudely sly, funny thing, i DID concede my point of Cozy Glow feeling autistic, as the more i looked at it the more things didn't match, the reason this is still happening is due to wording, so i'm proposing to calm down, and settle this argument in DMS

So what you mean is you want to continue flooding this page with arguments so that other people can see and this argument when all it's doing is getting the page more and more off topic? Honestly, this isn't working out for either of us, so just agree to disagree, if this is a bad way to end this conversation for you, i apologize, if you have any other way to solve this argument without infinite loops of replies, flooding the discussion, or provoking even more negative emotions, please do try.

 

They weren't suspicious because she said racist things to them, they had completely made up with her by the end of What Lies Beneath after she tricked them into revealing the catacombs by saying racist things, and Smolder was suspicious BEFORE she used racism to DISPEL the suspicions, which she successfully did. The real reason the student six were suspicious (aside from Smolder and Gallus, who are just cynical, others like Ocellus were trusting) is because they were the only ones who knew about the catacombs, and the spotted her coming out them without explanation. It's worth noting that why they were snooping they noticed her standing up them against Neighsay. What actually went wrong with her plan is that Neighsay bungled it up by imprisoning them, and then releasing Sandbar. If you look back at the CMC scene you'll see that Sandbar was actually trying to get Cozy Glow's help, they just happened to stumble upon her being evil. Regardless of all the nuances of what went wrong with her plan, the key point is that if she made those racist remarks in order to further her plan. 

Look, your argument is wrong either way, so I don't care about how it's phrased, you're the only one arguing about this nuance. I just paraphrased you for convince, drop it already. And knock it off with your remarks that it's my decision, it takes two. 

I gave way more in summary than that, yet you claim I'm the one twisting your words. If my actual summary was inaccurate, then why don't you explain how? You're just blaming me for not understanding when you make no effort to explain yourself. "You're taking two words out of my entire argument and emphasizing it to the point where that's all you can see: "feels autistic"." No, that was just the only part I CHOSE to comment on, and I was pretty clear about that. I specifically mentioned there was more to it, it was just irrelevant to my point. You're not fooling anyone. 

I was pretty explicit on why I replied, and I didn't contradict myself, I elaborated on the point. "I was just addressing the one thing I found important to address is the last thing I need is people thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow." "I didn’t reply to persuade you, but to challenge your assertion for everyone else who was reading as your assertion had some nasty implications due to being based on false premises." " I don’t care about your opinion, I care about the argument you made that you are trying to defend by saying it’s just your opinion. My issue is you essentially justified Cozy Glow’s evil by equating it with autism. That’s what you’re saying when you confuse using your friends as tools for self-gratification with not knowing how to make friends, the former is evil and the later is autistic, and then you write her off as more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer. That’s bad on two accounts. Autism is no excuse for being evil, nor does autism lead to being evil. " " I don’t care what you belief and I can’t change how you feel, but I care about what you’re adding to a dialogue far greater than you where many people might be listening." "You can’t just excuse evil by trying to write it off as mental illness, it betrays a misunderstanding of mental illness and let’s evil go unchallenged." I've been pretty damn consistent. Seems like you're just confusing "thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow" with "Every autistic kid alive is as morally inferior as Cozy Glow" (And you got mad at me for twisting your words? Seriously, what the hell?) and me challenging your assertion with wanting you to rephrase it. 

You made the claim, you started the argument. If you can comment on the episode then I'm allowed to comment on what you wrote in the discussion of said episode. This is your wording: 

"Cozy Glow- Some kid who feels autistic (Not the insult.), and manipulative sure, but she also has no horn, and didn't have nearly as horrifying a plan as starlight, and just plainly didn't understand friendship to the point where it begins to be portrayed as insanity. "

Sure, it doesn't actually make any sense outside of context and even in context I'm still left wondering why you thought it was significant that she has no horn, but it can clearly be seen that you claimed that she feels autistic and that she just didn't understand friendship, and I was just commenting on that. You're the one who then blew up by then demanding that I comment on every else, and I refused. 

If you think that sending pms could end it, then why haven't you sent me a PM instead? I specifically sent out the invitation for you to PM, but you didn't PM me, you replied. You can't blame me for continuing it when you're making the choice to reply in the comments, you're not even giving an excuse for why. It's pretty obvious that you just want to get the last word, you just won't admit it. I'm willing to give you the last word if you end with something I'm okay with ending on, but you haven't, you've just tried to shove all the blame onto me. 

You're literally just repeating yourself with your claim that I was slyly rude. I gave a counter-argument, you refused to address it, that's it. Are you going to continue debating this, or are you going to let it go? Do you want an apology or what? If you've conceded, then why are you still arguing with me about arguing? Let's end it. Or we could continue, half the comment is actually on topic. Make your move, the balls in your field. 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Ganondox

[FattPat 13]

The ending makes me think they're setting up a big villain team up for next season.

[VeroxVitrus 71]

Just to add on to my previous rant on this dumpster fire of a finale

Spoiler

The part where the bargain mane 6 where battling it out with cozy was just plain stupid, Cozy was trying to manipulate the people into thinking the young 6 were trying to destroy the magic. But then someone in the crow goes "Hur durp.. lookie here, that pony was saving his friendsszzzz. guuu, that must meanz that they're actually trying to save the world, du huh" why in the Buffalo did they get conclusion. It's like if you shot an enemy in an fps and someone from there faction came to aid them and you're like "They're being saved, so they must be good!" like where in gods name do you get that conclusion. This really bothers me and I can't believe the idiot writers who are probably 9 years old would let this be a "climax" this was 1 giant middle finger to the face honestly and it felt like a cheap way to bring everything to a close. If this is the way my little pony is going I would be more than glad to see it sink and burn into the fiery disaster it is already. 

 

[Senko 459]

Just now, VeroxVitrus said:

Just to add on to my previous rant on this dumpster fire of a finale

  Hide contents

The part where the bargain mane 6 where battling it out with cozy was just plain stupid, Cozy was trying to manipulate the people into thinking the young 6 were trying to destroy the magic. But then someone in the crow goes "Hur durp.. lookie here, that pony was saving his friendsszzzz. guuu, that must meanz that they're actually trying to save the world, du huh" why in the Buffalo did they get conclusion. It's like if you shot an enemy in an fps and someone from there faction came to aid them and you're like "They're being saved, so they must be good!" like where in gods name do you get that conclusion. This really bothers me and I can't believe the idiot writers who are probably 9 years old would let this be a "climax" this was 1 giant middle finger to the face honestly and it felt like a cheap way to bring everything to a close. If this is the way my little pony is going I would be more than glad to see it sink and burn into the fiery disaster it is already. 

 

Spoiler

 

Well bear in mind this is a school of friendship and the enemy is showing friendship. So to use your example its like the FPS being a battle to bring friendship and peace to the world only to see the enemy coming to their friends aid when you shoot them while your own captain is busy shooting your own injured in the back of the head so they don't distract you from fighting for friendship.

Which is not to say I particularly enjoyed it I'm not a fan of the whole Cozy Glow as a villain managing to fool adults while still a child when she monologues and can't even keep up the act at the end. However that specific scene made some sense unlike a lot of the rest e.g. draining all magic apparently only affects unicorn magic not Pegasus or Earth Pony like what Tirek was doing.

 

 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,162]

Gotta say; I thought it was a brilliant finale in the end. It's no Shadow Play by a long shot, but it seems like it takes the idea from "To Where and Back Again" and improves on it. I was already a fan of the student six and I adored how their arc closed out here, and Cozy Glow was a suprising competent villain until the end there where she played the Chrysalis handbook to a tee; essentially declaring victory before it was actually achieved. Still; Cozy was a great villain.

Admittedly they probably could've done more with Tartarus in general, but it was a blast seeing Tirek there still manipulating things behind the scenes. It was nice seeing everyone involved with something; tho the CMC were thrown to the wayside way too easily.

In the end; loved it.

[gingerninja666 487]

2 hours ago, Senko said:

  Hide contents

 

Well bear in mind this is a school of friendship and the enemy is showing friendship. So to use your example its like the FPS being a battle to bring friendship and peace to the world only to see the enemy coming to their friends aid when you shoot them while your own captain is busy shooting your own injured in the back of the head so they don't distract you from fighting for friendship.

Which is not to say I particularly enjoyed it I'm not a fan of the whole Cozy Glow as a villain managing to fool adults while still a child when she monologues and can't even keep up the act at the end. However that specific scene made some sense unlike a lot of the rest e.g. draining all magic apparently only affects unicorn magic not Pegasus or Earth Pony like what Tirek was doing.

 

 

Spoiler

I took the Earth Pony and Pegasi thing to be related to what Twilight mentioned about the various creatures in Tartarus.

Quote

"These creatures might be losing their magical powers, but there's still a magic that makes up what they are.

When we hear this line, we're already into day three of the spell (as seen by how NEighsay's medalion struggles to work). So the magic drain on these creatures should be complete already. Yet this internal magic remained. I think this is what Earth Pony and Pegasi magic is like. It makes them up, rather than being a projected expression of magic like unicorn spells, enchantments and stuff like the ray of a cockatrice's stare.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by gingerninja666

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

2 hours ago, VeroxVitrus said:

Just to add on to my previous rant on this dumpster fire of a finale

  Reveal hidden contents

The part where the bargain mane 6 where battling it out with cozy was just plain stupid, Cozy was trying to manipulate the people into thinking the young 6 were trying to destroy the magic. But then someone in the crow goes "Hur durp.. lookie here, that pony was saving his friendsszzzz. guuu, that must meanz that they're actually trying to save the world, du huh" why in the Buffalo did they get conclusion. It's like if you shot an enemy in an fps and someone from there faction came to aid them and you're like "They're being saved, so they must be good!" like where in gods name do you get that conclusion. This really bothers me and I can't believe the idiot writers who are probably 9 years old would let this be a "climax" this was 1 giant middle finger to the face honestly and it felt like a cheap way to bring everything to a close. If this is the way my little pony is going I would be more than glad to see it sink and burn into the fiery disaster it is already. 

 

When did the students ever say they believed the Student Six were trying to save the world? They didn't, they just saw them help each other, willingly throwing themselves into danger to try and help their friends. Even if the students believed they were "Enemies", as students of friendship I don't think it's strange that they might want to help them out after seeing them do something like that, with the idea that if they're willing to put themselves into danger and potentially get hurt or worse to try and protect their friends, they can't be all bad can they? Like, seriously, these are kids, teenagers and young adults going to a friendship school to learn about things like kindness and generosity and loyalty, not trained soldiers on a battlefield.

[Ganondox 899]

5 hours ago, VeroxVitrus said:

Just to add on to my previous rant on this dumpster fire of a finale

  Hide contents

The part where the bargain mane 6 where battling it out with cozy was just plain stupid, Cozy was trying to manipulate the people into thinking the young 6 were trying to destroy the magic. But then someone in the crow goes "Hur durp.. lookie here, that pony was saving his friendsszzzz. guuu, that must meanz that they're actually trying to save the world, du huh" why in the Buffalo did they get conclusion. It's like if you shot an enemy in an fps and someone from there faction came to aid them and you're like "They're being saved, so they must be good!" like where in gods name do you get that conclusion. This really bothers me and I can't believe the idiot writers who are probably 9 years old would let this be a "climax" this was 1 giant middle finger to the face honestly and it felt like a cheap way to bring everything to a close. If this is the way my little pony is going I would be more than glad to see it sink and burn into the fiery disaster it is already. 

 

While I think the scene wasn’t executed very well, I think there was more to it than that. Cozy Glow spun up a big fancy story about all the things the student six were doing, but from their actions the others students that wasn’t that her framing of the situation was inaccurate. 

[ggg-2 3,553]

With so many people, including me, likening Cozy Glow to Darla Dimple......Someone needs to draw her and Tirek in his most powerful form as Darla and Max. 

[Dethde 20]

15 hours ago, Ganondox said:

They weren't suspicious because she said racist things to them, they had completely made up with her by the end of What Lies Beneath after she tricked them into revealing the catacombs by saying racist things, and Smolder was suspicious BEFORE she used racism to DISPEL the suspicions, which she successfully did. The real reason the student six were suspicious (aside from Smolder and Gallus, who are just cynical, others like Ocellus were trusting) is because they were the only ones who knew about the catacombs, and the spotted her coming out them without explanation. It's worth noting that why they were snooping they noticed her standing up them against Neighsay. What actually went wrong with her plan is that Neighsay bungled it up by imprisoning them, and then releasing Sandbar. If you look back at the CMC scene you'll see that Sandbar was actually trying to get Cozy Glow's help, they just happened to stumble upon her being evil. Regardless of all the nuances of what went wrong with her plan, the key point is that if she made those racist remarks in order to further her plan. 

Look, your argument is wrong either way, so I don't care about how it's phrased, you're the only one arguing about this nuance. I just paraphrased you for convince, drop it already. And knock it off with your remarks that it's my decision, it takes two. 

I gave way more in summary than that, yet you claim I'm the one twisting your words. If my actual summary was inaccurate, then why don't you explain how? You're just blaming me for not understanding when you make no effort to explain yourself. "You're taking two words out of my entire argument and emphasizing it to the point where that's all you can see: "feels autistic"." No, that was just the only part I CHOSE to comment on, and I was pretty clear about that. I specifically mentioned there was more to it, it was just irrelevant to my point. You're not fooling anyone. 

I was pretty explicit on why I replied, and I didn't contradict myself, I elaborated on the point. "I was just addressing the one thing I found important to address is the last thing I need is people thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow." "I didn’t reply to persuade you, but to challenge your assertion for everyone else who was reading as your assertion had some nasty implications due to being based on false premises." " I don’t care about your opinion, I care about the argument you made that you are trying to defend by saying it’s just your opinion. My issue is you essentially justified Cozy Glow’s evil by equating it with autism. That’s what you’re saying when you confuse using your friends as tools for self-gratification with not knowing how to make friends, the former is evil and the later is autistic, and then you write her off as more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer. That’s bad on two accounts. Autism is no excuse for being evil, nor does autism lead to being evil. " " I don’t care what you belief and I can’t change how you feel, but I care about what you’re adding to a dialogue far greater than you where many people might be listening." "You can’t just excuse evil by trying to write it off as mental illness, it betrays a misunderstanding of mental illness and let’s evil go unchallenged." I've been pretty damn consistent. Seems like you're just confusing "thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow" with "Every autistic kid alive is as morally inferior as Cozy Glow" (And you got mad at me for twisting your words? Seriously, what the hell?) and me challenging your assertion with wanting you to rephrase it. 

You made the claim, you started the argument. If you can comment on the episode then I'm allowed to comment on what you wrote in the discussion of said episode. This is your wording: 

"Cozy Glow- Some kid who feels autistic (Not the insult.), and manipulative sure, but she also has no horn, and didn't have nearly as horrifying a plan as starlight, and just plainly didn't understand friendship to the point where it begins to be portrayed as insanity. "

Sure, it doesn't actually make any sense outside of context and even in context I'm still left wondering why you thought it was significant that she has no horn, but it can clearly be seen that you claimed that she feels autistic and that she just didn't understand friendship, and I was just commenting on that. You're the one who then blew up by then demanding that I comment on every else, and I refused. 

If you think that sending pms could end it, then why haven't you sent me a PM instead? I specifically sent out the invitation for you to PM, but you didn't PM me, you replied. You can't blame me for continuing it when you're making the choice to reply in the comments, you're not even giving an excuse for why. It's pretty obvious that you just want to get the last word, you just won't admit it. I'm willing to give you the last word if you end with something I'm okay with ending on, but you haven't, you've just tried to shove all the blame onto me. 

You're literally just repeating yourself with your claim that I was slyly rude. I gave a counter-argument, you refused to address it, that's it. Are you going to continue debating this, or are you going to let it go? Do you want an apology or what? If you've conceded, then why are you still arguing with me about arguing? Let's end it. Or we could continue, half the comment is actually on topic. Make your move, the balls in your field. 

 

This conversation being half off topic doesn't make it any better for other people to view, If you want to continue arguing out in the public just for your purpose of grabbing backers, you can continue replying in public, you're continuing to slander and twist my words, i'm going to start pming you from here, since you've rejected invitations to either end this conversation or to keep it away from flooding the chat, see you there.

So making it half on topic justifies flooding chat? Sure, i'll respond to the on topic argument,  "I was just addressing the one thing I found important to address is the last thing I need is people thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow." And you didn't need to start this argument here in public if you were only addressing it to me?  " I don’t care about your opinion, I care about the argument you made that you are trying to defend by saying it’s just your opinion. My issue is you essentially justified Cozy Glow’s evil by equating it with autism. That’s what you’re saying when you confuse using your friends as tools for self-gratification with not knowing how to make friends, the former is evil and the later is autistic," You're not posting my argument of deconstructing that statement, No, i don't defend my arguments by using the opinion card, and i've already politely suggested it to you to stop slandering me by implying i do, actually, most if not all of the quotes you posted directly show you either stating points that will later be contradicted, or points that twist my words. : "I was just addressing the one thing I found important to address is the last thing I need is people thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow." "I didn’t reply to persuade you, but to challenge your assertion for everyone else who was reading as your assertion had some nasty implications due to being based on false premises." " I don’t care about your opinion, I care about the argument you made that you are trying to defend by saying it’s just your opinion. My issue is you essentially justified Cozy Glow’s evil by equating it with autism. That’s what you’re saying when you confuse using your friends as tools for self-gratification with not knowing how to make friends, the former is evil and the later is autistic, and then you write her off as more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer. That’s bad on two accounts. Autism is no excuse for being evil, nor does autism lead to being evil. " " I don’t care what you belief and I can’t change how you feel, but I care about what you’re adding to a dialogue far greater than you where many people might be listening." "You can’t just excuse evil by trying to write it off as mental illness, it betrays a misunderstanding of mental illness and let’s evil go unchallenged." I've been pretty damn consistent. Seems like you're just confusing "thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow" with "Every autistic kid alive is as morally inferior as Cozy Glow"

Yellow = Later Contradicted Red = Slandering/Word Twisting/Not Getting it Orange = Both.

What? Because i stated something that started the argument? No, the argument wouldn't have happened if you didn't respond to that statement, see why you're not arguing with everyone else at the same time? You replied, you started an argument, the argument would have been cut short if you decided to use polite wording, and that would have been better than this.

"it can clearly be seen that you claimed that she feels autistic and that she just didn't understand friendship" If i would have wanted to make you think she didn't understand friendship DUE to autism, i would have said "Some kid who didn't understand friendship due to possible autism", it's like getting "Your house is filled with bombs" from a guy saying "Your house is on fire." "I'm still left wondering why you thought it was significant that she has no horn," Ah yes, maybe due to Starlight's magic almost destroying all of equestria? 

Your counter argument wasn't on you being slyly rude, It's obvious that i'm not conceding for this second argument, which is based off of you twisting my words and painting my picture horribly, no, i wasn't pushing the blame on you, I have said in my reply that you can make the note, just do it in a way that can end the argument, or turn it to pms, you're not doing very well at that if you're doubling down on justifying your slanders out in public.

[Lord Valtasar 12,700]

Tartarus was really underplayed and while the concept of magic being lost everywhere was a great one, it didn't really hinder them in any big way, and Cozy Glow.. well she was simply terrible, while her plan looks alot like Chrysalis' , it lacked the element of surprise we had with her, everyone already knew she was a vilain, it was foreshadowed too much and too obviously, and while Chrysalis literally fed on love, Cozy was just powerhungry, i just don't buy it that a filly would act like that, no reason was given, no backstory at all of why she was so, I really hoped that she would actually turn out to be chrysalis or manipulated by her. and how the hell did she become a penpal with Tirek.. anyway enough about Cozy Glow, she was just a big dissapointment for me.
Neighsay was great if somewhat awkward, he stayed true to his character, but when facts were presented to him, he didn't just pout like a vilain and insist nonpony are the enemy by default, he is a pony of logic after all even if his logic was misguided and racist.
the student six interactions as always feel unrealistically plot convinient. since this is the last episdoe i'll say it once more, i really like them as characters, but as a group they're just cringy imo
while i sound like i didn't like the episode at all, it really isn't the fact, I just feel it wasted so many great oportunities which i hoped would be posible since it was a finale, anyway, i give it a 7/10

[Ganondox 899]

Moving the on-topic comments to this thread where they belong:

Quote

In what lies beneath, Cozy Glow's lie didn't help her much, if she knew where the catacombs was located, she could have used any other tactic, in School Raze, her racism didn't dispel smolder's suspicions, it made the Student Six become more aware of her racism, you'd have to ask why Smolder and Gallus were the ONLY ones to ever question cozy glow, they are cynical, but if cozy glow never slipped, they wouldn't have been that suspicious, of course this is all theorizing, at that point none of them distrusted Cozy to such an extent, it would have panned out similarly if Cozy didn't reveal racism.

By getting them to doubt their worthiness, the tree was lured out. Who knows how she knew it work, but it did, and her action was deliberate. With Raze, watch the scene again. Smolder got the rest of the students suspicious, but Cozy wins their favor back by making the racist comment. Sure, it didn’t win the student six, but she didn’t need to. The point is she isn’t racist because she doesn’t know better, it’s a strategy. That’s the last thing I’m going to say on the subject as I’ve found this discussion has run it’s course. 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by PathfinderCS
Removed insult

[Dark Qiviut 22,457]

Despite loving this finale, there are some big problems with this one.

1. The CMCs were underutilized. No way to slice it, they coulda done a whole lot more than merely diverting Cozy from Neighsay and the school's catacombs. Even though they played the idiot group by not knowing anything about Cozy's plan, they came out as them when she locked them in the storage closet.
2. After Cozy's mob retreated, she unpinnd his medallion and threw it in the trash. She's the best villain of the series so far, but this move was dumb. She saw Neighsay use his medallion to chain and free the Young Six, and since she worked with him, she likely saw him use it to teleport it, too. Even if the artifacts lost their magic at this point, it's still possible for Neighsay to unlock the last bit of it and successfully report to Celestia had he'd been freed.
3. This exchange…

   Quote

   S08E01 Unnamed Unicorn Mare #3: They just sacrificed themselves trying to save their friend. Professor Dash always said there's nothing more loyal than that. Shouldn't we try to save them?

   Cozy Glow: They brought this on themselves. There's nothing we can do.

   S08E01 Unnamed Earth Mare #1: That doesn't seem very generous. Or kind.

   Cozy Glow: Yeah, yeah. The Elements of Harmony are very important. They're just not applicable in every circumstance. And with magic gone from Equestria, I'm not even sure the Tree of Harmony will be as helpful as it once was.

   [shimmering]

   Cozy Glow: What's happening?!

   S08E01 Unnamed Earth Mare #1: They're glowing like the Elements! I think the Tree of Harmony saved them!

   …is some of the worst dialogue all season, even approaching the opening of School Daze, Part 1. Nothing they say was natural at all. The elements's names and incorporation of their classes were completely hamfisted, and no one from the mob sounded the least bit concerned for their well-being at all, even when the green mare asked Cozy if they should save them somehow.
   
   Even worse is what Cozy said to conclude Pt. 1:

   Quote

   All this magic needs time to drain from Equestria before my vortex sucks it to another realm.

   And she and the mob were about to leave as the vortex sucked the Student Six, Starlight, and the magic from Equestria to another one.

4. The vortex was supposed to eventually drain Equestria of its magic, and in the climax, it was revealed that Celestia, Luna, or their army were likely unable to fly. So why were Cozy, Dash, and some pegasi able to fly at all? Is the magic drained here related to pony flight or not at all? This is really confusing and borders on plot hole territory.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[DonMaguz 1,023]

18 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

The vortex was supposed to eventually drain Equestria of its magic, and in the climax, it was revealed that Celestia, Luna, or their army were likely unable to fly. So why were Cozy, Dash, and some pegasi able to fly at all? Is the magic drained here related to pony flight or not at all? This is really confusing and borders on plot hole territory.

Yeah that was disappointing, pegasi could still fly.

The show has so many relevant characters now, that they need to come up with more ridiculous excuses to shove them away each time.

[Ganondox 899]

20 minutes ago, DonMaguz said:

Yeah that was disappointing, pegasi could still fly.

The show has so many relevant characters now, that they need to come up with more ridiculous excuses to shove them away each time.

I’m fine with shoving them away, not every character needs to do something every episode. If anything my problem with this episode can boil down to too much attention was spent on characters other than the student six. Would be nice to see an episode where the alicorn sisters actually do something though. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ganondox

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,162]

All right guys; let's cool it before it gets out of control. Control yourselves and focus the debate on the episode; not yourselves.

Thank you. ^^

[Dethde 20]

So i've just rewatched the episode, and i've got to say tirek was hilarious, if i'd list a major positive about the episode it'd be either the humor, or cozy glow as a villain.

I have to definitely agree with Dark Qvivut on the CMCs, extreme waste of potential in my opinion, i would have thought something that would imitate Dark Water in the comics where the CMCs were the driving positive force solving the problem, instead of their appearance in the episode which felt more like filler than actual character.

However i will point out something that i see within the episode, the children were SO gullible, oh our classmates looks like they're in pain and sacrificing themselves, let's just walk away awkwardly, if the students atleast showed some disagreement aside from a face, that would have made slightly more sense, there was literally an unicorn who saw Cozy Glow yelling and locking the CMC behind doors, instead of even warning his classmates, just moonwalk away, sure that works.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

41 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

I’m fine with shoving them away, not every character needs to do something every episode. If anything my problem with this episode can boil down to too much attention was spent on characters other than the student six. Would be nice to see an episode where the alicorn sisters actually do something though. 

Ohh, I agree. I'm completely ok with the shoving away, what I found unnecessarily complex are the excuses they come up to do so.

For instance, Shadow Play had Celestia and Luna trusting Twilight and the others with looking for clues to the whereabouts of Starswirl. They never showed up again until the end and I am completely ok with that.

In To Where and Back Again we had the kidnapping of everyone except for Starlight's group and that was amazing because the screentime was well spent in showing the quest that mattered, instead of a poor subplot like the one we had in School Raze.

Celestia and Luna could have been shown leaving from Canterlot's castle flying, instead of showing them marching towards Ponyville and nothing would have changed, except that we wouldn't have the inconsistent pegasi capability to fly, that's what I found unnecessary about the scene.

[Ganondox 899]

7 minutes ago, DonMaguz said:

Ohh, I agree. I'm completely ok with the shoving away, what I found unnecessarily complex are the excuses they come up to do so.

For instance, Shadow Play had Celestia and Luna trusting Twilight and the others with looking for clues to the whereabouts of Starswirl. They never showed up again until the end and I am completely ok with that.

In To Where and Back Again we had the kidnapping of everyone except for Starlight's group and that was amazing because the screentime was well spent in showing the quest that mattered, instead of a poor subplot like the one we had in School Raze.

Celestia and Luna could have been shown leaving from Canterlot's castle flying, instead of showing them marching towards Ponyville and nothing would have changed, except that we wouldn't have the inconsistent pegasi capability to fly, that's what I found unnecessary about the scene.

I think they should have just had pegasi be unable to fly in order to be consistent with Twilight’s Kingdom. 

I found having Twilight’s group get trapped in Tartarus to be much more effective than just having them be kidnapped, but I agree that the subplot ended up being poor.