How Celestia and Luna "Raise" the Sun and Moon

[Comet Tail 808]

I've been trying to wrap my brain around your response for the last hour or so - not because you didn't explain it well, but because I think I was in the wrong mindset. I'll try to write my thought process in understanding this - please let me know if I'm thinking correctly here.

 

At first, I was envisioning increasing the velocity of Earth as like pressing the gas pedal in a car to increase its velocity, but the two are not analogous. A speeding car is constantly expending energy to maintain its velocity, since it has to counter energy lost to air resistance and frictional resistance with the road. However, Earth hurtling through space is not encountering any such frictional resistance. Therefore, Earth's state of motion through space is equivalent to a state of rest - no energy is expended to maintain the state. I think in this way the correct frame of reference for Earth's motion would be a frame of reference moving at Earth's velocity, since in this frame of reference, no energy is expended to keep Earth in its current state.

 

This explains why the correct v₂ and v₁ are 30 m/s and 0 m/s, as opposed to my previous numbers.

 

Achieving the adjustment in velocity with microbursts then makes sense in this paradigm of Earth hurtling through space with no frictional resistance. Whenever a new velocity is reached, this new state of motion is always equivalent to a state of rest - no energy is expended to maintain the new state. In the calculation of kinetic energy expended, this would make each new initial velocity zero. So indeed, a series of microbursts takes less energy than a single burst to achieve the same adjustment of velocity.

 

Finally, telekinesis works by taking the ordinarily random atomic/molecular motions (which on a macro scale we call thermal energy) and orienting them in a single direction. So there is no collecting or harnessing energy, but rather, orienting kinetic energy already present in the object.

 

Yes! Correct, correct, and correct!

 

The only thing keeping the Earth from moving along any quicker is inertia, and that doesn't effect frame of reference at all, accept that the frame of reference must be inertial.

 

And about orienting molecular motions - once again we see the power and importance of harmony.

 

Edited August 15, 2012 by Mattlight

[Music Chart Fan 818]

Yes! Correct, correct, and correct!

Awesome! Thank you again Mattlight/Twilight for taking the time to answer my questions and help me learn more about the physics of celestial bodies and telekinesis. It's a great feeling for me to grapple with somewhat advanced topics like these and come out with a greater understanding of the laws of physics and their application.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

Twilight, I am in discussion with another on whether or not Celestia and Luna could be called deities. My stance is while Celestia and Luna are powerful they are not at the power level a true goddesses or even demi-goddesses.

Your thoughts?

[Scootalove 10,684]

I guess Celestia was born with the ability to raise the sun, hence her cutie mark. I think Luna can raise the Moon at night time by using her horn.

[Concord 1,980]

Hello!

 

The theory is interesting, and there has been some fancy and interesting talk in your responces, but! I can't accept this theory at once. There's the idea of "Previous generations" or simplier said - There have been times, where the world was withouth Luna and Celestia. Withouth knowing exact information, people can create these types of ideas, to explain certain stuff, but that doesn't mean, they are correct!

 

Not sure if i properly understood your talk with Music Chart fan, but, what bugs me is that, you don't know the exact masses.

[Harmonic Revelations 8,833]

So they're actually just stopping a natural process that would destroy Terra, but at the same time they are royalty because they do this? Tyranny! But it's okay, because Celestia is cool. Also she's the tallest, and that makes her automatic ruler.

 

However, requiring something unless certain doom be met is sometimes called extortion. If they don't let Celestia rule, Terra is destroyed! D:

Edited February 6, 2013 by Harmonic Revelations

[Firelord Derpy 310]

Good points! There may be a few issues with it, namely when NMM showed back up and made it night for a much longer period of time then usual but, Magic. 

 

I always figured that the Sun and moon used to work properly until Discord screwed it up.

[Silver fox 117 49]

Wow now i finally understand.

 

I finally understand that you Twilight have been secretly communicating with the united states government. Soon, soon you will launch a massive pony army against all the niegh sayers, and all the bronies will have enlightenment. I am right huh Twilight.

[Gamer_Luna27 77]

So, if telekinesis works  by focusing all atomic/molecular motions and orientating in a single direction, wouldn't that mean that Celestia not only has to move Terra but also all the ponies inhabiting it as well?

 

When you use telekinesis, you might pick up a pen and paper, but you don't pick up the floor at the same time. But if you move the floor and the laws of motion no longer apply, how does Celestia keep all non-celestial bodies from getting left behind?

 

Moving that much mass and keeping everything on that mass still seems like a lot of energy for one pony to harness, yet that pony can still be rather useless at protecting her kingdom from invasion like the changlings or Discord.

 

If she only gets this power surge once a year on the Summer Sun Celebration Day, does this mean that all her energy is expended for the rest of the year until the next Summer Sun Celebration comes along? 

[GreyScholar 1,584]

I would like to bring this thread back to the attention of the members here because I feel it is an inventive and creative way of handling the 'raising' of the sun and moon.

[BalanceBrony 259]

Interesting theory. It explains how the Equestrian system could work. I was struggling with "well, it can't be geocentric... that won't work... so what do Luna and Celestia do?" And I think this is a viable possibility.

[Carbon Maestro 1,003]

I like these assumptions and it'd be a plausible, yet realistic explanation as to what happens in this world's solar system.

 

Yeah, that does help with disproving the geocentric theory. I'm not even sure if the writers had an explanation themselves.

 

It's kind of a crazy system of having to boost the moon and celestial bodies with unicorn magic though.

 

Yet before Celestia and Luna, were there any unicorns to boost the sun and moon? Actually yes, in the Hearth's Warming Eve episode, it's said that the unicorns raised the sun and moon the same way Celestia raises the sun herself.

 

And it does seem that Celestia avoids using her magic for the entire year except for the summer sun celebration. It is an interesting theory though.

 

Y'all go buy Kerbal Space Program now, you hear me??? You'll learn orbital mechanics soon enough.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Carbon Maestro

[Colorful Respawn 399]

 

 

The equation for centrifugal force is: a = v^2/r The mean distance to sun is: 1.496e11 m That's the radius of a circle that the sun must trace every day, which is 939,964,521,954 m in circumference, from these numbers. There's 86,400 seconds in a day (24 hours, that is). So the sun's velocity would have to be 10,879,219 m/s! (speed of light is about 300,000,000 m/s, btw) So if my equation is right, the centrifugal acceleration from the sun is: 791 m/s^2 Now, let's find the amount of energy per second, and thus power, this requires... KE = 1/2 * m * v^2 Mass of sun = 1.9891e30 kg And our power is 6.2227103855e35 Watts = 6.2227103855e23 TW = 6.2227103855e11 Yottawatts (YW)!!! = 622,271,038,550 YW! I would check to make sure this is more power than the human race has ever consumed, or do all kinds of research... But I think you already understand that's a lot of power for one pony to be putting out 24/7... By contrast, changing a near-earth sized planet's velocity by a few tens or hundreds of m/s once a year takes very little energy. How much power entirely depends on how long she takes to do it, of course.

Wow, you learn something new every day, at least that's what my mom tells me?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDaBa6HUVA0 This should help you understand how Celestia and Luna raise the sun and moon.

[Flash Fire 386]

There have been times, where the world was withouth Luna and Celestia.

The unicorns did it before Celestia and Luna as said in Hearth's warming eve.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

It's clear they use powerful telekinetic magic to move the moon and sun at will. The comics give the best cases of it.

[Rarity Paige Belle 1,853]

It's clear they use powerful telekinetic magic to move the moon and sun at will. The comics give the best cases of it.

 

What I would like to know is who raises the sun and moon in the alternate universe?

[Nuke87654 1,849]

What I would like to know is who raises the sun and moon in the alternate universe?

 

Probably Sombra if we're to believe that the ability to move the sun and moon isn't held exclusively by Luna and Celestia thanks to HWE episode.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Nuke87654

[Noodles 109]

I think it has been shown in that "day" and "night" are more concepts and do not work like they do in our world. My primary evidence is when the Royal sisters got kidnaped and the sun and moon were in the sky at the same time and it was half day and half night. in our world it would be day with the moon visible. but in Equestriea the sun brings the day and the moon brings the Night! that's why when they went missing it was half day and half night!

[Metemponychosis 1,238]

Nah. I prefer to think that Equestria exists in a different universe, that it's a plane and that the princesses simply move the sun and the moon around.

[Noodles 109]

 

 

Nah. I prefer to think that Equestria exists in a different universe, that it's a plane and that the princesses simply move the sun and the moon around.

how dose your theory explain half day and half night as seen in the beginning if season 4 I think. the episode when the sisters disappeared?

[Metemponychosis 1,238]

how dose your theory explain half day and half night as seen in the beginning if season 4 I think. the episode when the sisters disappeared?

I doesn't. I was just trying to "explain" how could it be possible that the two move the sun and the moon.

I never touched this specific point in my post, but I agree. The day and the night most likely doesn't work in Equestria like they do in our universe. In fact, I think that the episode Princess Twilight Sparkle demonstrates that, like you said, in the way night and day meshed together in the sky when the princesses were kid... Ponynaped. 

[Comet Tail 808]

I've been gone from these forums for about a year and a half... It sure feels good to be back!

 

Twilight, I am in discussion with another on whether or not Celestia and Luna could be called deities. My stance is while Celestia and Luna are powerful they are not at the power level a true goddesses or even demi-goddesses.
Your thoughts?

 
 
It depends on what you call a "god..."
 
 
 
In some cultures, a "god" is a being that merely personifies a concept. Along that vein, you could almost say me and my friends are the gods of our respective Elements of Harmony. In other cultures, a "god" means a lot more than that, the be-all end-all all-powerful and all-knowing. In that case, not even Celestia would come close to that.
 
But the important thing is she's recognized for who and what she is. She's a selfless, nearly immortal, extremely benign, kind, and very wise leader. For more than a thousand years she's ruled Equestria, bringing us peace and prosperity. Before she and her sister came to power, our world was very different, harmony and friendship were not as they are today, and there was even hate! I guess ever since we're young we learn about this in history, and begin to realize that Celestia and Luna's rule is synonymous with the peace and harmony we enjoy. I think most ponies are even rather frightened of the idea of them not ruling us. Ponies governing themselves? It'd be anarchy!
 
That being said, there are some ponies who focus their studies on those eras before they came to power. Ultimately what they end up learning is how futile it is. It seems to be an endless cycle of peace, tyranny, unrest, revolt, and peace again - though often the "peace" stage was completely skipped and replaced with tyranny, and sometimes even that was skipped for right into another era of unrest and revolt. Such violent and terrible times!
 
And the most appalling thing is all this while, they would get violent during every phase of this - even during "peace" the criminals did unthinkable things. Ponies were - good grief - killing eachother! 
 
 
So, no, they aren't exactly gods, they seem to be something even more. They're the ones who sealed peace and prosperity on Equestria. Ever since they've been in power, we've enjoyed peace and harmony as never before, and they've kept it going for more than a thousand years. So what are they? They're immortal, wise, kind, loving leaders who keep world peace.
 
Gods? No. Worthy of great admiration? Without a doubt! When there's somepony more than a thousand years more wise than you or anypony else, who is the supreme ruler who's kept peace and harmony for more than a thousand years, how can you not love them?
 

 

Hello!
 
The theory is interesting, and there has been some fancy and interesting talk in your responces, but! I can't accept this theory at once. There's the idea of "Previous generations" or simplier said - There have been times, where the world was withouth Luna and Celestia. Withouth knowing exact information, people can create these types of ideas, to explain certain stuff, but that doesn't mean, they are correct!
 
Not sure if i properly understood your talk with Music Chart fan, but, what bugs me is that, you don't know the exact masses.

 
Why is not knowing the exact masses a problem? I can flip open a reference book and get those for you.

Terra: 5.972e24 kg
Sol: 1.988e30 kg
 
And about previous generations; our system hasn't always been like this. Keen observation. It actually became that way because a brown dwarf flew by the system, knocking all of the planets out of their stable orbits. That's when it started becoming necessary to regularly adjust our world so it stays stable.
 
 

So they're actually just stopping a natural process that would destroy Terra, but at the same time they are royalty because they do this? Tyranny! But it's okay, because Celestia is cool. Also she's the tallest, and that makes her automatic ruler.
 
However, requiring something unless certain doom be met is sometimes called extortion. If they don't let Celestia rule, Terra is destroyed! D:

 
She's not a tyrant and it's not extortion. See my section above about the peace she brings. And I'm willing to bet, even if ponykind ever got foolish enough to want to oust her and her sister, she'd still do it, because that's the kind of pony she is.
 
Luna and Celestia have a long, somewhat complicated history with this entire world. They're meant to rule it. This era began when the tribes came together after the events of Hearth's Warming, and needed a new ruler who wouldn't be a pegasus, unicorn, or earth pony, so they could represent all of us, equines.
 
 

So, if telekinesis works  by focusing all atomic/molecular motions and orientating in a single direction, wouldn't that mean that Celestia not only has to move Terra but also all the ponies inhabiting it as well?
 
When you use telekinesis, you might pick up a pen and paper, but you don't pick up the floor at the same time. But if you move the floor and the laws of motion no longer apply, how does Celestia keep all non-celestial bodies from getting left behind?
 
Moving that much mass and keeping everything on that mass still seems like a lot of energy for one pony to harness, yet that pony can still be rather useless at protecting her kingdom from invasion like the changlings or Discord.
 
If she only gets this power surge once a year on the Summer Sun Celebration Day, does this mean that all her energy is expended for the rest of the year until the next Summer Sun Celebration comes along?

 
I'm honestly not exactly sure how it all works out with her magical ability. It is the arcane, so it's not always abundantly clear how it works. But as for moving Terra and its inhabitants - as I cited earlier, Terra has a mass of roughly 5.972e21 Mg (that's mega-grams, not miligrams. A mega-gram is a metric ton).
 
Since there's far more biological life than ponies, let's skew the intrinsic error wildly towards there being more biological mass. Let's say every pony weighs three tons (we actually weigh ~70 kg on average), and there are nine billion of us (even though there's only a hundred million or so). And for kicks, each one has a hundred tons of home (houses don't come anywhere near to that!).
 
With these ridiculous assumptions, we get a mass of 3*9e9*100 = 2.7e12 Mg.
 
And let's make it a thousand times larger for kicks.
 
2.7e15 Mg ~ = 3e15 Mg.
5.972e21 Mg ~ = 6e21 Mg.
 
So that's roughly 0.5e-6th of Terra's mass. In other words, less than half of a millionth, even though we made completely outlandish assumptions that made this number thousands of times larger than it should be.
 
My point is; compared to moving the planet around, moving everything on it around is peanuts.
 

I like these assumptions and it'd be a plausible, yet realistic explanation as to what happens in this world's solar system.
 
Yeah, that does help with disproving the geocentric theory. I'm not even sure if the writers had an explanation themselves.
 
It's kind of a crazy system of having to boost the moon and celestial bodies with unicorn magic though.
 
Yet before Celestia and Luna, were there any unicorns to boost the sun and moon? Actually yes, in the Hearth's Warming Eve episode, it's said that the unicorns raised the sun and moon the same way Celestia raises the sun herself.
 
And it does seem that Celestia avoids using her magic for the entire year except for the summer sun celebration. It is an interesting theory though.
 
Y'all go buy Kerbal Space Program now, you hear me??? You'll learn orbital mechanics soon enough.

 
<OOC>
I LOVE KERBAL! So, yeah, this is still my go-to theory for wanting spaceflight in the MLP-verse, because I always find a geocentric model to be terribly unappealing. It's horrendously inefficient in terms of getting a day/night cycle, though if Twilight kept making mistakes with moving the moon around in the season 4 finale due to light-lag, then we get the implication that their sun and moon are roughly as far away as our moon, so their sun would be tiny, and perhaps COULD orbit their planet, though if it orbited, you wouldn't need anypony to raise and lower it, though clearly Twilight had to. So... I dunno. It's hard to make sense of. I'm working on another theory for it, though. 
 
I'm not sure anything could properly explain the half-night-half-day in the season 4 opener, though. Except maybe dawn with the moon up, heh.

[Pinkiesister75 92]

I imagine that they cause the planet to rotate.

 

That said, it's a weird planet where even the Seasons need help to happen.

 

I wonder if the pony planet was not naturally created in the way planets are created. Perhaps something alien-made rather than nature-made?

 

Who knows? It appears to be in an alternate universe anyway.

 

Y'know, I just had a thought, I recently heard about planets in the universe that don't orbit suns but just float around space or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_planet

Perhaps the world that Equestria is on a Rogue Planet, perhaps one terraformed by some long-lost race of beings with an "artificial" mini-sun & a regular moon going around it.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Pinkiesister75

[paradoxical 1,735]

I shrunk the sun and moon and they have to be rotated so that they don't mess things up.

 

I disagree Discord.

How can you disagree, were you there?

No, and because it hasn't been written neither have you.

Drat!

They live on a pony (man?) made satellite which is REALLY close to their star (similar to mercury).  There is a lot of shielding from radiation, but that gives them their energy.  One portal opens to let somewhat direct sunlight in.  One opens to let indirect sunlight in.  The more direct sunlight portal is called sun, and the less direct is called moon.

:comeatus: I doubt that one.

[Music Chart Fan 818]

@,

 

The parts of your post where you write about Celestia and Luna's rule, and how they changed the history of Equestria, led me to think of some questions and issues that I have with your explanations, which I wrote about below. I realize that there are a lot of thoughts and questions here, so I hope you'll bear with me as I go through them.

 

First, how exactly have Celestia and Luna been, in your words, bringing peace and prosperity to Equestria for more than a thousand years? I would think that individuals bring peace, and especially prosperity, to themselves, through voluntary exchange of goods and services, saving and investing, not acting violently toward others (except when defending life and property), etc.

 

I'm also a little confused when you write about how, in the past, before the rule of Celestia and Luna, there was hate, violence, and killing. Judging from the way you mention these things and your horrified reaction, does that mean that hate, violence, and killing don't exist in Equestria at present? If not, what exactly have Celestia and Luna done to eliminate these things (especially hate, which I would think only exists in the minds of other ponies)? Do Celestia and Luna inflict or threaten violence (or otherwise violate ponies' rights) in order to achieve this hate-less and violence-less society?

 

Furthermore, do your statements about the events prior to Celestia's and Luna's rule, and your statement that ponies are frightened by the prospect of not being ruled by Celestia and Luna, mean that you believe it would be impossible for ponies to live in a peaceful, cooperative society without Celestia and Luna? Do you believe that ponies could never come up with innovations, voluntarily exchange goods and services, and live peaceably and cooperatively with other ponies (while protecting their rights) without Celestia and Luna ruling over them?

 

Next, I think there are some significant things to consider regarding whether Celestia and Luna are tyrants. First, is it possible for the ponies of Equestria to find a way to correct the orbit of the planet and the moon themselves, or are Equestrians forever and utterly dependent on Celestia and Luna to do this? Would it be correct to presume that the whole planet would be doomed if Celestia and Luna were unable or unwilling to do this orbit correction? If all the ponies in Equestria are utterly dependent on Celestia and Luna to stop this death and destruction of the planet, then what is there to stop Celestia and Luna from abusing their positions of enormous power? What is there to stop Celestia and Luna from acting tyrannically over other ponies, for fear of Celestia and Luna refusing to do this orbit correction in order to punish the disobedient ponies? You can say that Celestia and Luna are kind and benevolent, that you couldn't imagine them doing such a thing, and that they haven't done this yet and don't plan to. But ultimately, all of that would still mean that all Equestrians are dependent on the whims and abilities of two ponies to continue their existence, and that seems like a rather scary and precarious state of affairs.

 

On a similar note, given the events of the show, we could ponder other scenarios. For example, is there any way that the ponies of Equestria could stop Tirek if the Mane Six were unable or unwilling to keep him locked up? If not, then what is there to stop the Mane Six from abusing their power and acting tyrannically over other ponies under threat of unleashing Tirek on everyone (while perhaps using their power to protect themselves)? Again, you could say that you think the Mane Six have never and would never do something like that, but I still think situations like these are possible and are rather frightening to consider.

 

When pondering whether Celestia and Luna are tyrants, I think one thing to ask is whether they rule on the basis of inflicting or threatening violence on otherwise peaceful ponies. When Celestia and Luna rule, do they make decrees, orders, etc. that other ponies (who aren't violating anyone else's rights) must obey under threat of bodily harm, seizure/destruction of property, imprisonment, and/or death? Are the livelihoods of the princesses, their staff, the royal guards, etc. funded by coercive taxation or other means which violate ponies' rights? If Celestia and Luna inflict or threaten violence on a massive scale in ways like these, then that could be considered tyrannical behavior, and would hardly seem "worthy of great admiration". And if Celestia and Luna don't use violent and rights-violating methods, then how exactly do they rule and maintain their livelihoods?

 

In conclusion, from my perspective, the apparently undying reverence for and admiration of Celestia and Luna in your post seems rather unjustified and off-putting. It seems like you place excessive faith in the "extremely benign, kind, and very wise" rule of Celestia and Luna, and mainly (or even solely) attribute the peace and prosperity of Equestria to them. Consequently, it seems that you give very little credit to, and have very little faith in, the ability of individuals in Equestria to cooperatively bring about their own peace and prosperity.

 

Given how many questions and concerns I raised above, I don't expect you to respond to all of them if you don't want to, but I would be interested to see what you generally think about all of this, whether I understood your explanations correctly, and how you think the "kind and benevolent" rule of Celestia and Luna actually works. 

 

Thanks for reading!