Iron Will Being a antagonist?

[100 beasts kaidou 321]

When did people came up with this? I see alot of people saying hes a villain(minor one like trixie) but I never understood why. I understand Gilda Flim Flam but Iron Will? All what he did Is teach Fluttershy how to stand up for herself. Its not his fault she over-used it.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,291]

I have thought about this before and he seems much more like a very tough businessman than a villain. Gilda qualifies much more because she actually tried to disrupt the friendship between the characters. Iron Will just did a service. Sure the service nearly ruined Fluttershy's relationship with the others, but again, he just did a service, nothing more.

[Betez 1,734]

I'm kid of hoping for Iron Will to make a reappearance in season 4. I don't consider him a villain, though. He never really did anything villain-ish.

[Splodge Inks 15]

No, I don't think he is a minor Antagonist. He just does his job, which makes him OK. Well, I believe that if they do something to harm characters, the are an Antagonist. Iron Will didn't do this.

[An Old Head 4,815]

He actively encourages being a complete asshole to other people and adopts pressure schemes to get his payment.

 

Yeah, he's an antagonist.

[Phoenix237 353]

I didn't think he was an antagonist. The show made him look like one.

 

Okay here is what I see.

Iron Will has a business. His job is to teach others to be more assertive. And then he collects his pay.

Now what they did in th show is make him look like an antagonist because of what he "supposibly did to Fluttershy". Now that not how it works. He tought Fluttershy the skills to be more assertive. The problem was that Fluttershy took it too far. But instead of an episode where she learns her own mistake we get one where we blame the teacher.

It dosn't work that way. You can't blame the person who tought you skills to do a certain thing if you start to abuse that said skill.

Iron Will was doing his job. And when he wants to collect his pay which he rightfully deserves ha gets denied it.

 

The episode wasn't bad. It was one of the more memorable ones. It just that it would kinda give the wrong idea when it comes in the lesson department.

[Shanks 10,811]

Iron Wills methods were a tad heavy handed but I don't really think he was an antagonist and he did seem to admire Fluttershy's firm yet not unpleasant "no means no" approach at the end of the episode when he said "no means no, that's a good one I gotta remember that." He did start to threaten Fluttershy at first when she refused to pay but he did live up to his promise that if you are not completely satisfied that you pay nothing.

[pinkiefan1287 610]

I have the same problem with people saying Iron Will and the Flim Flam Brothers are villain. Neither of them seem like villains. The 3 were just business ponies and minotaur, just trying to make a living. Both were just providing a business to help make everyones life easier.

 

Also I just don't see them coming back as villains because theres no motivation for them to come back seeking revenge. Iron Will was fine with how things went  and the FFB would have no grudge against the Apple Family. 

[~Vallo~ 409]

No, he wasn't an antagonist. He never caused harm to other characters (never on purpose, anyway) and he had good intentions in the episode he appeared in. 

Edited August 10, 2013 by ~Vallo~

[Argumedies 1,748]

I never once saw Iron Will as an antagonist/villain. All he did was to un-cork all those penned up emotions that Fluttershy had been holding on to for years and they just came out in a flood of uncontrolled anger.

It was this episode that made me start to like Fluttershy more and it inspired me to make this video for her.

 

I don’t blame Iron Will for what happened but in the long run what he did made the best improvement to her and I think she is a better pony for it.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Argumedies

[Mutemutt 772]

Yeah, he's an antagonist. He was essentially the catalyst that turned Fluttershy into a jerk. Since he creates the main problem that Fluttershy (the protagonist of the episode) has to overcome, that makes him the antagonist. Similarly Flim and Flam were also antagonists.

 

Just so you know (in case you didn't already), being an antagonist doesn't make one evil. In fact it is totally possible to have the "good guy" be the antagonist for the story and the "bad guy" to be the protagonist. Being an antagonist is all about how they're related to the protagonist(s) in the story.

[LunaEclipse 101]

I feel like this is a bit of a semantic argument. It really just depends on how harshly you interpret the definition of 'antagonist'.  It's true that Iron Will does oppose what our pony protagonists stand for, but it IS just for a business.  He does what he does for everypony; not just the protagonists of the show.  The Minotaur's just trying to make a living, you know? 

 

Iron Will was understanding at the end of the show anyway.  Fluttershy was assertive, and he had nothing to retaliate with.  Iron Will isn't truly evil or anything like a typical antagonist would be, so I feel like he was just used to create a plot where Fluttershy is actually her own antagonist.  He's actually rather polite and well-mannered.  Did you see how nicely he knocked on Fluttershy's door after throwing Pinkie Pie into the mud?? 

 

Hopefully I'm not succumbing to biased statements...I really enjoyed Iron Will as a character and found his comic relief, well...kinda funny.  One of the more refreshing characters next to Discord, in my opinion.  I feel like he really was just a businessman trying to make money and not a true antagonist.  

 

[Mutemutt 772]

I feel like this is a bit of a semantic argument. It really just depends on how harshly you interpret the definition of 'antagonist'.  It's true that Iron Will does oppose what our pony protagonists stand for, but it IS just for a business.  He does what he does for everypony; not just the protagonists of the show.  The Minotaur's just trying to make a living, you know?

 

Iron Will was understanding at the end of the show anyway.  Fluttershy was assertive, and he had nothing to retaliate with.  Iron Will isn't truly evil or anything like a typical antagonist would be, so I feel like he was just used to create a plot where Fluttershy is actually her own antagonist.  He's actually rather polite and well-mannered.  Did you see how nicely he knocked on Fluttershy's door after throwing Pinkie Pie into the mud?? 

 

Hopefully I'm not succumbing to biased statements...I really enjoyed Iron Will as a character and found his comic relief, well...kinda funny.  One of the more refreshing characters next to Discord, in my opinion.  I feel like he really was just a businessman trying to make money and not a true antagonist.  

 

While I see what you're getting at, antagonist really only has one meaning as far as stories are concerned. One or a group of those who oppose the protagonist. I feel that the problem is that some people seem to mistake the term as meaning the "bad guy/ villain/ evil" when it really has nothing to do with that. The bolded statements make it seem like you too are equating the terms. And I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to set the record straight.

 

Really, there is nothing wrong with being the antagonist. It does not make you evil by default either. 

[~Asuka <3~ 867]

He's an antagonist.   His 'business' turned Fluttershy into something that she definitely isn't; cynical and almost sadistic.   Therefore, he'd have to be one, since he harms, for lack of a better word, Fluttershy.   

[LunaEclipse 101]

While I see what you're getting at, antagonist really only has one meaning as far as stories are concerned. One or a group of those who oppose the protagonist. I feel that the problem is that some people seem to mistake the term as meaning the "bad guy/ villain/ evil" when it really has nothing to do with that. The bolded statements make it seem like you too are equating the terms. And I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to set the record straight.

 

Really, there is nothing wrong with being the antagonist. It does not make you evil by default either. 

 

Yeah, I agree.  I probably am twisting what antagonist means, but it's just the way I think of it.  I take antagonism to make active oppositions to the protagonists in the setting.  Under an actual definition of an antagonist, then yeah, Iron Will is one.  But this is just how I choose to interpret an antagonist.  I know what you're saying, and I understand the common misconception of antagonism = evil.  

 

EDIT:

Also, the bolded sentences you addressed in the other post were meant to emphasize the passiveness of Iron Will's opposition, which just simply didn't give me the feeling that other antagonists would.  I guess what I'm trying to say is, Iron Will didn't seek out Fluttershy and force her to attend his seminar because he represents everything opposite of Fluttershy's existence. 

Edited February 24, 2013 by LunaEclipse

[Captain Gobblez 55]

The only thing he cares about is personal gain, like most villains. But I don't think he can be labeled an antagonist because at the end of putting your hooves down he sees he's wrong and leaves Fluttershy alone. So he isn't that bad of a guy. 

[Scootalove 10,684]

I don't really think of Iron Will as an antagonist. He really isn't that bad of a guy, antagonists are just made for a reason to either get revenge or set a new role as a villain. I don't think Iron Will is an antagonist at all.

[Mutemutt 772]

Yeah, I agree.  I probably am twisting what antagonist means, but it's just the way I think of it.  I take antagonism to make active oppositions to the protagonists in the setting.  Under an actual definition of an antagonist, then yeah, Iron Will is one.  But this is just how I choose to interpret an antagonist.  I know what you're saying, and I understand the common misconception of antagonism = evil.  

 

EDIT:

Also, the bolded sentences you addressed in the other post were meant to emphasize the passiveness of Iron Will's opposition, which just simply didn't give me the feeling that other antagonists would.  I guess what I'm trying to say is, Iron Will didn't seek out Fluttershy and force her to attend his seminar because he represents everything opposite of Fluttershy's existence. 

 

Well, let me just say that when having conversations, context is very important. For example, if I had a friend come over to help me move some boxes, if I asked him to "hand me that 'square' one" no one would bat an eye but if I use "square" to describe a 3d object in geometry class, I'd be wrong; no if's and's or but's. Since we are talking about literature here, literary terms have their literary meanings. If someone wants to say that Iron Will isn't a "bad guy", they should say that "Iron Will isn't a bad guy". Saying he isn't an antagonist is a completely different statement in this context. 

 

I'm sorry, but I always get a little miffed when people use antagonist incorrectly (as you can imagine, it happens quite often).

[Argumedies 1,748]

While his methods are on the bullish side, *if you pardon the pun* Iron Will’s goal was to make her more assertive.

 

Assertive: confident in stating a position or claim/forcefully strong and noticeable

 

Fluttershy was not harmed. She had the ability to pull a harder side of her like she did for Dragonshy only difference here is that he made it ok for her to show this side in a much bigger way and un-intentionally let the preverbal genie out of the bottle. I believe she had that in her the whole time and as I said it made her a better pony in the long run.
 

I see this in people all the time where they build these mass internal walls in their minds and something comes along and breaks it all down and emotions can just tear through someone and they don’t even realize what’s going on until the flood is over. And that’s what happened to Fluttershy. And actually this isn’t a bad thing. Sometimes you just need to tear open the scabs to let the wounds heal
 

So yes I guess you can say he’s the antagonist as per saythe story is written because he was the one that pulled out the cork. Does this make him a monster? No he was being Iron Will. Was he doing it for the money? Most definitely. He’s a businessman after all.

 

(And businessmen are not evil… right?)

Edited February 24, 2013 by Argumedies

[Descant 1,897]

When did people came up with this? I see alot of people saying hes a villain(minor one like trixie) but I never understood why. I understand Gilda Flim Flam but Iron Will? All what he did Is teach Fluttershy how to stand up for herself. Its not his fault she over-used it.

Excuuuuuuse me. Iron Will's not a villain, but Flim and Flam are? They're travelling businessmen, entrepreneurs. Just like Iron Will, except that their product happened to compete with the Apples', and the Iron Will's didn't compete with anypony. 

 

Just like Iron Will, they were doing their jobs. How does that make them villains? Minor antagonists, I'd say, and that's only because they tried to run the Apples out of town when the Apples rejected their business deal.

 

Villains are evil. Antagonists are not necessarily. Flim and Flam are not evil. You could probably argue that Trixie (minus the Alicorn Amulet) and Gilda aren't villains either, but major antagonists. 

[LunaEclipse 101]

Well, let me just say that when having conversations, context is very important. For example, if I had a friend come over to help me move some boxes, if I asked him to "hand me that 'square' one" no one would bat an eye but if I use "square" to describe a 3d object in geometry class, I'd be wrong; no if's and's or but's. Since we are talking about literature here, literary terms have their literary meanings. If someone wants to say that Iron Will isn't a "bad guy", they should say that "Iron Will isn't a bad guy". Saying he isn't an antagonist is a completely different statement in this context. 

 

I'm sorry, but I always get a little miffed when people use antagonist incorrectly (as you can imagine, it happens quite often).

 

 

Haha, don't worry about it, you're right.  I mean, nomenclature exists for a reason right?  I was never known to have literary finesse, but I can understand how it can irk someone a bit.  I didn't mean anything by my lack of diction, so I guess I can rephrase myself:

 

Iron Will ain't such a bad guy.

 

[poniesforfun 716]

He's a scammer. Compare him with Pinkie Pie and Rarity who were trying to help their friend for no profit. He's selling his gimmick with no care that it worked or not. He's also uses intimidation to get what he wants. Definitely not a good guy.

Edited February 25, 2013 by poniesforfun