Whose Side Did You End Up Taking? *Bats episode spoiler*

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

Unfortunately, I *am* a farmer. I do livestock (sheep, for wool production) rather than crops, but I deal with similar problems due to vermin, predators, and pests hurting the sheep. From my perspective both sides didn't do a very good job of presenting their options.

 

Applejack was used to normal fruit-bats, who voluntarily confined themselves to one section of the orchard as mentioned in the episode. She must already have known the advantages of those bats, so what Fluttershy was telling her was not news. However, these were not those bats, but were a different breed and they were behaving like locusts wiping out large swaths of orchard.

 

Fluttershy had already tried to reason with them via her animal empathy abilities, and failed. Since that attempt didn't pan out, and they were already ignoring the existing sanctuary, there was no basis for Applejack to believe Fluttershy's option would work.

 

But then, Twilight's automatic answer of 'change the appetite of the bats' spell would also not pass the sanity check since she tried that before with the parasprites, and the results were disastrous. Again, there was no basis for Applejack to believe that option would work correctly either.

Fluttershy couldn't make them understand because she needed time to learn their language. All she wanted was more time.

[duidamasterXD 9,626]

 

 

Fluttershy couldn't make them understand because she needed time to learn their language. All she wanted was more time.

 

They seemed rather obnoxious to say the least, and I don't have the utmost faith in her ability to control them. Her skill is talking to animals, but she I don't think she can always make them do what she wants them to do.

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

Bats are very much needed in the ecosystem, so I had to side with flutterbutter

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

They seemed rather obnoxious to say the least, and I don't have the utmost faith in her ability to control them. Her skill is talking to animals, but she I don't think she can always make them do what she wants them to do.

Okay. Your opinion, but I don't think that you can say that Fluttershy wouldn't be able to make them understand. She seemed quite sure IMO.

---------------------------------------------------------

In an unrelated note, I'd like to know what was Applejack planing to do if Twilight hadn't come up with her plan. I mean, aren't these the ponies that do that "Winter Wrap Up thing" were they care for the animals and stuff? I liked the conflict there but, it was pretty clear to me from the beginning who was in the right by the episode's internal logic.

[duidamasterXD 9,626]

Okay. Your opinion, but I don't think that you can say that Fluttershy wouldn't be able to make them understand. She seemed quite sure IMO.

 

That's true and I can't. I guess I just have less trust in the bats' willingness to ignore field after field of delicious apple trees that they'll be flying over every day (or night, rather)

Edited December 30, 2013 by DashForever

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

That's true and I can't. I guess I just have less trust in the bats' willingness to ignore field after field of delicious apple trees that they'll be flying over every day (or night, rather)

LOL. I see. I don't know if the expression exists in the US (or wherever it is you are from) but it makes me think of "letting the dog watch over the sausage".

[duidamasterXD 9,626]

LOL. I see. I don't know if the expression exists in the US (or wherever it is you are from) but it makes me think of "letting the dog watch over the sausage".

 

It doesn't, but that's pretty much exactly what I'm getting at, so yeah . Ah well. It's pretty largely a matter of opinion. I kinda wish the show had portrayed the conflict slightly differently, but oh well.

[Fhaolan 4,468]

Fluttershy couldn't make them understand because she needed time to learn their language. All she wanted was more time.

Absolutely. But she didn't present that part of her solution very well. Given the way the question is phrased in the original post of this topic I'm trying to judge the sides by the arguments presented, not by what I saw at the end of the episode. At that point if I was the farmer responsible for the orchard I'd be more interested in the solutions being presented than reiterations of the problem. I already know what the problem is, it's pretty obvious even to a thickhead like me.

 

The impression I was getting from Fluttershy's argument was not 'I can do this, but I need more time' which I would have gone along with, and appealed to Twilight and company for ideas on how to *give* her that time she needed. Instead her argument seemed to be 'don't do anything, it will all work out' which I wouldn't have accepted.

 

Of course, Applejack was doing an equally bad job on this front, as she didn't actually *have* a solution. No, I take that back, she was worse at it from that perspective. She was just talking about how bad the bats were and the damage they were doing, without actually coming up with any ideas on how to get rid of them. I assume she was thinking about trapping and killing the bats, but as far as I remember she didn't actually say that (because that would have been strange to say out loud in a modern kids show.)

 

That's why I mentioned Twilight's solution, because that's the only other solution presented, or at least the only other one I remember hearing from that section of the episode. It came in at the end, so maybe I shouldn't even count it.

 

So, I guess Fluttershy wins the argument but more from default unfortunately, as at least she was presenting a solution.

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

I think Applejack put up the better argument when she recalled Granny Smith's stories about the last time there was a large pest infestation. The Apple Family had to ration out apples all Winter, so you can imagine Applejack's horror at the prospect of that ever happening again. Sweet Apple Acres is vital to Ponyville's survival and well-being. The vampire fruit bats are not reliant on the farm like the ponies are, thus they did not deserve priority. I don't necessarily agree with Applejack and co.'s methods of getting rid of the bats, but I can sympathize with why they wanted them gone at all costs. Sure the seeds from the eaten apples would grow into new trees, but that would still take a lot of time that the ponies did not have. Time was of the essence.

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

Absolutely. But she didn't present that part of her solution very well. Given the way the question is phrased in the original post of this topic I'm trying to judge the sides by the arguments presented, not by what I saw at the end of the episode. At that point if I was the farmer responsible for the orchard I'd be more interested in the solutions being presented than reiterations of the problem. I already know what the problem is, it's pretty obvious even to a thickhead like me.

 

The impression I was getting from Fluttershy's argument was not 'I can do this, but I need more time' which I would have gone along with, and appealed to Twilight and company for ideas on how to *give* her that time she needed. Instead her argument seemed to be 'don't do anything, it will all work out' which I wouldn't have accepted.

 

Of course, Applejack was doing an equally bad job on this front, as she didn't actually *have* a solution. No, I take that back, she was worse at it from that perspective. She was just talking about how bad the bats were and the damage they were doing, without actually coming up with any ideas on how to get rid of them. I assume she was thinking about trapping and killing the bats, but as far as I remember she didn't actually say that (because that would have been strange to say out loud in a modern kids show.)

 

That's why I mentioned Twilight's solution, because that's the only other solution presented, or at least the only other one I remember hearing from that section of the episode. It came in at the end, so maybe I shouldn't even count it.

 

So, I guess Fluttershy wins the argument but more from default unfortunately, as at least she was presenting a solution.

After Fluttershy talks to the bats, and before the song, she tells Applejack that she would need more time to learn their language. Then Applejack says that the bats will ruin her special apple in the mean time. After the song (in which the girls bullied Fluttershy and Applejack was sounding like a mad televangelist spouting about the evil of vampire fruit bats, while Fluttershy demonstrated that she understood the ecology of the bats) Fluttershy presents ANOTHER solution: the sanctuary, so that the bats would leave the other trees alone and make the orchard as a whole stronger because they drop the seeds (which was demonstrated from the start).

 

I got the impression that Applejack was thinking "Oh, this little pest lover is going to ruin mah farm!". She then ignores Fluttershy's suggestion because she is afraid that while they are building the sanctuary, the bats will be wrecking her orchard. And then she goes on about how bad was the last infestation (when they probably didn't have Fluttershy around).

 

So, Fluttershy actually presents TWO different solutions to the problem and none of these say "let's do nothing". In the first, Fluttershy would be learning their language and in the other they would be building the sanctuary. While Twilight's solution wasn't presented until AFTER Fluttershy submitted. So their decision was made on "rounding up the bats".

 

Of course, now that I think of it, if baffles me that they couldn't split up and keep the bats away while Fluttershy talked to the them, but whatever...

 

Honestly, if the bats were as bad as Applejack seemed to think they were, and there were no flying yellow small horse around, I'd say that Applejack should have "rounded up" the bats and done whatever it is that she planned to do. Because the farm is her family's life, practically... And them return her plant team leader uniform to the Mayor.

 

EDIT: Lot's of typos....

Edited December 30, 2013 by moonlightavenger

[Fhaolan 4,468]

After Fluttershy talks to the bats, and before the song, she tells Applejack that she would need more time to learn their language.

Hrmmm. I seem to have missed that bit in my viewing of the episode. Okay, nevermind, my argument is invalid.

[Gone Airbourne 21,969]

I would have to side on AJ's side because she really had a lot to lose at stake. The past of what had happened to her family was bad enough as it is. So I def. had to side with AJ's point of view.

[Music Chart Fan 818]

You could say I "sided" with Applejack in this episode, although I think Applejack's "side" could have made much better arguments and countered Fluttershy's points more effectively. I have much less sympathy for Fluttershy's position, and I often found her arguments lacking in merit. 

 

First, let's take a look at Fluttershy's arguments made in this episode.

 

In the song, Fluttershy says that "these bats are mamas and papas too; they care for their young just like we ponies do." My first reaction to Fluttershy saying this is "So what?" I don't see why bats reproducing and raising offspring is supposed to elicit sympathy; that's just what most animals do as a fact of nature.

 

The second part of Fluttershy's line above raises the issue of whether the bats are sentient, and just how intelligent they are. According to Fluttershy, they speak a language, and we see them doing a few "intelligent" things mostly as jokes (such as reading or sitting at a table with utensils). However, Applejack in the song seems to imply that they're not thoughtful or sympathetic, and other than the aforementioned handful of jokey "intelligent" things, we don't see too much else that would indicate that they're sentient or have intelligence on the level of ponies or dragons like Spike (or humans in real life). So, in this episode, I don't see much proof that the bats actually "care for their young just like we ponies do," i.e., as sentient, intelligent "parents." Therefore, I don't find Fluttershy's argument from the above line of the song very convincing.

 

Fluttershy in the song also says that the bats are "loyal to their family," which again is questionable without evidence of them actually being that well-developed.

 

Fluttershy's next major argument is that the bats, by spitting out the seeds of the apples they suck juices from, will plant those apple seeds and create more apple trees. But while Fluttershy spins this as a benefit of letting the bats eat the apples, I see it more as an annoyance and harm. The bats will spit their apple seeds haphazardly, causing trees to grow where they are unwanted, such as too close to another tree, in the spaces between rows of trees, or even outside the orchard (such as close to their barn or house). The Apple family is obviously capable of obtaining more apple seeds to plant themselves, and furthermore, they can plant those seeds when and where they want to, rather than hoping that the seeds the bats spit out will grow in the right place at the right time. Therefore, again, I don't buy Fluttershy's argument here.

 

Furthermore, as an addition to the above argument, Fluttershy also says the bats will help the Apple family's trees "grow stronger faster" and that the Apple family will get "seeds that will grow into even bigger and better apple trees". However, Fluttershy gives no explanation of how this will happen. How do the bats create improved apple trees for the Apple family? Does Fluttershy's argument apply only to trees newly planted from the spit-out seeds? Once again, without any explanation or evidence to back up Fluttershy's claim, I'm not convinced by or able to evaluate this "benefit."

 

The problem that's touched upon, but not necessarily well fleshed-out, in the episode is that the bats are consuming the Apple family's apples with no compensation for the time, money and effort it took to grow them. So, if the bats are sentient, intelligent creatures, as Fluttershy claims to elicit sympathy, then they should be held responsible for theft (and trespassing). Imagine if you, your family, and a bunch of your friends went to an orchard and picked and ate as much fruit as you wanted without paying for any of it - would that not be considered theft (and trespassing)? Wouldn't things like "Look, we're people just like you!" or "We were just hungry!", like Fluttershy says about the bats, not be considered acceptable excuses for your actions?

 

And if the bats are not of the same sentience or intelligence as the ponies, then I don't see why there should be any big issue with doing something with the bats to make sure they don't just eat the Apple family's crops - if not killing them, then capturing them and sending them elsewhere, researching some bat pheromone to repel them from the orchard, and/or other methods.

 

However, I don't find Fluttershy's "sanctuary" solution to be acceptable. First, there is no explanation in the episode of how the Apple family will actually restrict the bats to that section of the orchard, or how they will protect the rest of the orchard from a different invasion. But also, why should the Apple family sacrifice part of their orchard, which they put their time, money and effort into cultivating and which could produce salable apples, to the bats for virtually zero benefit? Maybe, since this is Fluttershy's idea, she should sink her time, money and effort into maintaining the "sanctuary" and ensuring that the bats are restricted only to that section (with Fluttershy being held responsible for any further crop damages), and furthermore, compensate the Apple family for lost income from that part of the orchard. Perhaps then Fluttershy would see the actual costs of her "sanctuary" solution.

 

The thing is, Applejack and her "side" don't make many (if any) of the arguments I've suggested above, nor do they make particularly good counterarguments to Fluttershy's points, instead several times abusing the emotional appeal of the bats being "icky" or "scary" or whatnot. Consequently, viewers might not sympathize as much with Applejack's "side," even though I think, on the basis of this episode, their position has more merit.

[Doc. Volt 2,561]

Applejack, sing with me!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1GF1JrntfI

 

Lyrics:

oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi

See me ride out of the sunset
On your colored spray can
Out for all that I can get
If you know what I mean
Bats to the left of me
Bats to the right
Ain't got no gun
got no knife
Don't you start no fight

(Chorus)
Cos I'm
D.D.T
I'm Poison
D.D.T
And I'll win the fight
D.D.T
I'm a power-load
D.D.T
Watch me Kill your bats!

I'm dirty, mean and mighty unclean
I'm a Banned chemical
Environment Enemy Number One
Understand
So lock up your mouth
And lock up your lungs
Lock up with a gas mask
And run for your apples
The apple family is back in town
So don't you mess with around

(Chorus)

(Guitar Solo)

D.D.T. oi oi oi
D.D.T. oi oi oi
D.D.T. oi oi oi
D.D.T. oi oi oi

D.D.T.
I'm dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (oi oi oi)
D.D.T.
And I'll win the fight (oi oi oi)
D.D.T.
I'm a power-load (oi oi oi)
D.D.T.
Watch me kill your bats!

 

 

ahah! KILL 'EM ALL!! MY APPLES!!!

Edited December 30, 2013 by Doc. Volt

[Malinter 3,064]

i'm with AJ.

 

If something was eating MY crops that I took the time and effort to grow, i'd destroy it.

 

it can either find food elsewhere or die. 

 

Might seem mean but when it comes some down to who eats to who gets to eat the food. It will always pick myself over them.

[Bucky McGillyCuddy 956]

How could you not side with AJ. Fluttershy tried to talk to the Bats but that showed no promise, sure she might have been able to communicate with them eventually but I think AJ raised the point that by then the entire orchid could be devoured.

 

I was a little confused about how FS knew that apple trees that have grown from the seeds of Vampire bat eaten apples would grow faster and produce more fruit than those that hadn't despite her saying earlier "This is the first vampire bat I've ever met" . Seems like the writer(s) just threw that info out there because fluttershy's pro-bat argument was really weak to start with. That whole argument is flawed anyway because Granny Smith had experienced the Bats when she was younger and the apple trees obviously didn't grow back as fast as Fluttershy suggested because we know they had to ration the apples that winter and go without the cider. That delicious....smooth, creamy apple cid- sorry, where was I... Oh yeah, and that's the story of how Applejack found her parents.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Bucky_McGillycuddy

[Stellafera 3,835]

Maybe, since this is Fluttershy's idea, she should sink her time, money and effort into maintaining the "sanctuary" and ensuring that the bats are restricted only to that section (with Fluttershy being held responsible for any further crop damages), and furthermore, compensate the Apple family for lost income from that part of the orchard. Perhaps then Fluttershy would see the actual costs of her "sanctuary" solution.

 

*adds to headcanon on basis that Fluttershy is the element of Kindness*

 

Funnily enough, I think that Applejack on the whole was much more reasonable than her supporters. I think this episode would've been much improved with a simple change to the lyrics and correspondingly a change to the plot. Colors denote when the ponies are singing at the same time:

 

Rarity

Well I for one don't have a doubt

These vermin must be stamped right out

 

Rainbow Dash

I second that, they've got to go

These bats they've got to hit the road

 

Twilight

We must solve this situation by giving the bats a new location

 

Pinkie Pie

Yes all you three, well don't you see?

Getting rid of the bats is just sillyyyyyyy

 

Rarity, Rainbow Dash, and Applejack

Stop the bats, stop the bats

Make them go and not come back

 

Twilight, Pinkie Pie, and Fluttershy

Save the bats, save the bats

Give a home so they can snack

 

Applejack and Fluttershy

Yes, it comes down to just one simple fact

 

Applejack

They crossed the line

 

Fluttershy

They are just fine

 

Applejack

It's time that we attack

 

Fluttershy [spoken]

Wait, no!

 

The episode would focus more the ponies taking an "us vs them" attitude towards each other and learning to compromise, as well as both of the supporters of each pony being the irrational ones in the argument (AHEM RAINBOW DASH) and perpetuating the debate. 

Edited December 30, 2013 by Stellafera

[Scootadress 360]

Applejack wasn't the bright one of the group in this episode. I hate how they created her out to be in this episode. She knew about the moral before, since she happened to learn it in season 1 and retaught it to Rarity, but she..ignored (?) better judgement and chose such a short term 'quick fix' that many people even here state would be better since it is a quick fix. Yes, doing that is an easy fix for the moment.

 

In real life, we use pesticides and recently cut out some types of pesticides. Yes, they were good, in the moment, but soon they went down and attacked the other ecosystems and made it so that other animals could no longer do what they could do because of the poison. 

 

Yes, removing the bats would effectively help the problem in the short term, but what if that's their only pitstop? A lot of birds feast on horseshoe crabs because they have little energy to actually get anything else, and they do a pitstop and eat the eggs so that they can fuel up to fly further. Both parties benefit. When you take away something as that, it can damage the ecosystem badly. What they do is actually help her grow more trees, what else might they do that might benefit the environment that AJ's not seeing? Maybe they are decaying the plants and giving nutrients back in to grow more plants in the process. While the problem is bad for AJ's family and the sort, you have to keep in mind, Pinkie did much worse than them and so did the parasprites. All during the growing season as well. 

 

With AJ's solution (well, Twilight's because AJ didn't bother to create one. She made accusations but never actually confronted them or made an attempt herself to round the bats if they were that bad.) was changing the diet. That wouldn't be alright, what would they possibly eat? What impacts would that have on the environment? You can't have animals competing when they aren't native. Many endangered animals become endangered because of the invading species and changes in habitat. (San Joaquin Kit Foxes for one, they are a dying off animal because they are limited to one location that's not giving them enough food. That's excluding everything that eats the same food.)

 

While you can't stand there and let them, having their own area like a reserve is much more beneficial to both sides. To have them in their own area would ensure both sides that you can get more fruit the next year but also your not killing the other apples. However, like one said, what would happen afterward when their apples are gone? 

 

I can't say. Maybe they can make something large and enclosed?

[Sabrinie 391]

I could empathized with AJ, but messing up a whole group of animals that badly just wouldn't have been good for the environment and you really shouldn't mess with nature. Just dealing with the bats by giving them somewhere else to go made sense to me from the beginning. 

[Clarity 3,094]

No apples for the Apple family and Ponyville versus the bats getting a meal just because they're sentient animals... yeah.

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

I think that would help in this discussion if people would remember that the ponies live in Equestria. Those bats are not the same as those on earth. Unless we think that Fluttershy is flat out lying, I think it's pretty clear who is in the right from the start of their discussion. Fluttershy states that the sanctuary will help in the future and will keep the bats away from the other apples. Applejack and the others simply ignore Fluttershy's knowledge on the matter.

[Anilewe 2,178]

Applejack. Her reaction was maybe too emotional, but I can understand her better and most of people would probably react the same way. She was afraid of these bats and I still don't see how they are good for her orchard. I care about animals and I can understand Fluttershy's point of view, but her reasons were rather weak, in my opinion anyway. For example, that line "I just don't like the idea of taking away the thing that really makes the vampire fruit bats vampire fruit bats!". Apples aren't the only fruit in Equestria and I'm sure that even Everfree Forest is full of fruits, which they could eat. And that part of song, when she sings that vampire fruit bats create families and are loyal to each other... Really? _^_'

 

The problem I have with this conflict is that there wans't really good solution. Applejack just wanted to make them go, while Fluttershy wanted them to stay. What about compromise? Writers left nothing in between and I find it rather disappointing.