S07:E10 - A Royal Problem

[Eiwly 77]

Also something I caught on like my 8th rewatch of the episode. The second morning that Celestia makes pancakes, they have pineapple on them because the previous morning Luna was eating a pineapple! It's just a little thing, but yeah really does show Celestia pays attentions and cares  

[blackstarraven 142]

On 5/23/2017 at 1:19 AM, AlexanderThrond said:

I don't think it was malicious so much as thoughtless and potentially harmful. I'm not really sure whether I feel Starlight's doubt counteracts the praise she gets for it. She does only use it as an impulsive last resort under significant pressure, but I don't think many ponies would take it as well as Celestia and Luna did, and I guess I'm tired of Starlight stories revolving around this. 

That's true! That's probably not far off from what Princess Twi would be like if she succumbed to darkness. 

Ya I actually had this discussion with a friend not long ago.

We have actually at this point got a good ideal of what all the Alicorns would be like evil except for Candace and Flurry Heart.

Luna = Nightmare Moon.

Celestia = DayBreaker

Sci-Twi = Midnight Sparkle. (And we can assume that this is pretty close to what Twilight would be, so that.. only in pony form)

And... ... Bacon Hair. really, shes a Alicorn...

 

Something we don't actually get. The evil version of Sunset is her version of a Evil Alicorn, I'm almost positive that in pony form, Sunset is a Alicorn now. and does not even know ijt.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

if Starlight had never heard of the Wonderbolts, which she mentioned in "Every Little thing she does", then how in the hay would she have heard of Nightmare Moon, to even dream about her, and have such an accurate portrayal of her in her dreams?

[Thrond 3,263]

3 hours ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

if Starlight had never heard of the Wonderbolts, which she mentioned in "Every Little thing she does", then how in the hay would she have heard of Nightmare Moon, to even dream about her, and have such an accurate portrayal of her in her dreams?

Twilight told her. 

[Daring_Do 552]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:11 AM, Nightmare Muffin said:

never said they couldn't have humanity, but the way Sunbutt was talking made her seem like a petulant tween. =_=; these sisters have been knowing each other for well over 1000 years. Tired or not, they should be able to pick up on each others' social cues at this point, which made the episode unbelievable.

Kibitz: http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Kibitz

Wasn't Princess Luna in the moon for the entirety of those 1000 years

[ManaMinori 4,145]

3 minutes ago, Daring_Do said:

Wasn't Princess Luna in the moon for the entirety of those 1000 years

She was. And no one even remembered her. Only Twilight had known of her, and SHE originally thought of her as a mere mare's tale

so no way Starlight could've known about her

[Daring_Do 552]

Just now, Nightmare Muffin said:

She was. And no one even remembered her. Only Twilight had known of her, and SHE originally thought of her as a mere mare's tale

so no way Starlight could've known about her

Well, I was actually replying to another post of yours there... ;P

[ManaMinori 4,145]

1 minute ago, Daring_Do said:

Well, I was actually replying to another post of yours there... ;P

Oop, whoops. 

Well, point is, they've known each other pretty darn long enough to read each other. Long before the banished to the moon incident. 

[blackstarraven 142]

1 minute ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Oop, whoops. 

Well, point is, they've known each other pretty darn long enough to read each other. Long before the banished to the moon incident. 

Well kind of.

The thing is,  Celestia HAS changed sense then.. and Luna.. Well is just now changing.

As some pony that has left the county I was born in a lot and come back a year later I can tell you that even a year away from some one can really change the way you interact with them until you get back into the swing of things. And that's not even considering the amount of adjustment that Luna is having to do... And not pointing out that.. As much as we may forget it. Luna's original complaint has only kind of been fixed. She's still more isolated then Celestia. (She talks to herself...) She still is very likely the less appreciated sister.

And some times, you really never meld with the person err... pony as well as you once did.

____________

I hate to pick sides on this. Because in the end both of the sisters where.

#1: Not actually doing anything wrong, they where just missing social cues and or not thinking in the other sisters... horse shoes... Wait would Ponies call them horse shoes or just shoes? ~shakes head~ nope, don't overthink it...

#2: Both where over doing it when it was brought up and not thinking of the others life.

But....

 

Luna really was the one missing way more of the social cues then Celestia...

Now before every pony jumping my case, That's actually more understandable. So Celestia might actually bare as much if not more of the blame.

But most of the things that Celestia was massing where literally things that where 100% outside of her experience.

Luna had interacted with ponies enough to know that talking with them all day would not always be fun. Now all that being said, again Luna still clearly has not adjusted to modern life, and most likely never quite will. Or rather will and will always be a introvert.

_
But this brings up a LOT of questions.... And most of them have the same answer.

Q: Has Celestia never raised the Moon before? I was pretty sure that she was the one doing it while NMM was banished?

Possible A: The Sun/Moon may very well actually raise and lower themselves without the Sister there to do it.

Possible A: Luna was in fact still doing it... like, IDK subconsciously....

Possible A: The writers where not thinking of that.

-

Q: How did dreams/nightmares work before Luna came back?

Now I don't really expect to get any answers to these questions. But...

I'm going to lose sleep over them.. and that's sad.

[Meeps 297]

Me likey. I enjoy learning more about characters as underrepresented but important to the show as the two princess sisters. Starlight Glimmer is really showing her own personality in a glorious way, IMO, and while I was initially a bit disgusted to see the map called her despite her not being a part of the Mane 6, she handled herself well. I also enjoyed seeing Twilight behave more like her "old" self. Good ep, loved it. 

[Jeric 46,851]

On 5/27/2017 at 3:24 AM, Nightmare Muffin said:

Oop, whoops. 

Well, point is, they've known each other pretty darn long enough to read each other. Long before the banished to the moon incident. 

In my experience, this isn't how real long term interaction works. Whether it's a sibling, spouse, child, or friend. We are all ... moving targets in a way. People are constantly changing, even those that appear rigid in their values. 

Also, some people are just better attuned than others at reading those that they are close to, and a lack or strength of that connection should never be conflated with the love or closeness of two people. 

[Tone Shift 57]

I definately enjoyed this episode. Thus far it is probably my favorite one of the season. Mostly due to that awesome little bit in Starlight's mind with Daybreaker. Hell, I made a video about that which isn't pulically visible yet (to avoid spoiling others who stick to the U.S releases.)

 

 

I had fun, this much I know.

 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Couple of things do occur to me though.

First - Awesome though Daybreaker is, it is literally Starlight Glimmer's headcannon - how she imagines a corrupted Celestia would appear. So plenty of wiggle room if the writers ever want to use the character but change the design.

The second is that the magic of the map is not the magic originally supplied by the tree of harmony - that was stolen and corrupted by SG, then repaired/replaced by SG and Twilight working together; that latter might explain why the map is able to assign SG to friendship tasks as well as the mane 6. Although the new spell WAS filtered though the symbols on the six thrones, so you would expect it to be limited to those six symbols.

[Quinch 1,120]

[Disclaimer: if I've ever written an episode review before, it was long enough ago that I don't remember. So, bear with me]

I suppose the most surprising thing is how perfectly everyone is cast for their role.

I'll get to that in a minute, though. Eh, make that ten. Right now, I need to spend about five of them squealing in glee that not only, after six and a half seasons, we finally have an episode focused around the royal sisters. It's a good thing that I'm mature enough that it doesn't bother me that, despite several episodes focused around Luna specifically, Celestia had to share her with Twilight or her sister. There's no problem at all.

Just kidding. Well, just... kidding about not kidding? Which was actually kidding? Let's just drop this would-be plot point, it's getting too recursive. Besides, we have enough to cram into twenty-two minutes as it is and we have no screen time to spare. Because, although the issue between the two princesses is the Big Thing driving the episode, there's three different plots going on throughout the whole thing. At least, anyway. The first is, as mentioned, the problem between Celestia and Luna. On the other hand, there's also the issue of Twilight constantly hovering over Starlight and finally, Starlight's doubts about the whole cutie-mark-switcharoo... yeah, let's call it a decision. Snap decisions are decisions nevertheless.

Which kinda makes me wonder, was this episode written, more or less, for a while now but the writing staff had to wait until they had the right cast together? Yep, going back to the first sentence - that didn't take long, after all. See, after I came out of my initial Celestifanboy trance, I realized, not only did the episode pull off all three threads together without taking anyone out of character, but actually used some of their defining traits to tie all three subthreads together.

Twilight was there as a facilitator to the crisis - not only would her well-established mentor worship make it impossible for her to step out of line and force a decision on the princesses, but the cognitive dissonance she experiences just considering the possibility that Celestia might be anything short of flawless just fuels the panic of Starlight being responsible for fixing it - something that pushes Starlight even more into second-guessing herself since Twilight makes it painfully obvious that she still has some pretty huge trust issues, even if she does make an effort to put them aside.

Starlight, on the other hand, manages to build on her character development and tries the direct approach with the Princesses to get them talking to each other - which is likewise still on par with her personality so far, as she's shown time and time again that, when there's a task to complete, her first solution tends to be a straight line from point A to point B and if that fails, brute-force the obstacles and - maybe - ask for forgiveness later, but it's also backfired enough times that she was aware - if not really in a state to think - how much of a gamble it was. But doing so took a strongly iconoclastic personality, which none of the other characters in the entire show, save possibly Discord, have.

And finally, there's the princesses. To be perfectly honest, I actually found the writers constantly reminding us how Luna tends to feel underappreciated for her work a little tiring and making her a fewer-dimensional character, but to be fair, all we've seen of her was either a} working in the dream realm or b} dealing with her personal crises, so some slack can easily be given there. As for Celestia, well, it was nice to see some development to her beyond being the wise and kind ruler and slash or mentor, so seeing her at her, shall we say, less regal went miles towards further humanizing what was, up to this point, really mostly an archetype.

Once all the pieces are laid out and the plot gets underway, everything does tend to go more or less as you'd expect - despite each princess' expectation of how easy their day is going to be, turns out it's actually pretty exhausting. But the unexpected thing is that the writers show us more than that - that Celestia's job is actually physically exhausting to the point that she can probably hammer nails with her cheek muscles, and when things don't go as planned, she rarely has a chance for a do-over - just move on to the next thing on the to-do list. Luna, on the other hand, gets no company, no support network and rather than having a list of tasks to check off, she has to deal with each unique dream crisis on the fly and using only her own personal strength.

And boy, when we do get to the dreams, we're really in for a wild ride. The dreambubbles alone are going to fuel fanon like crazy - is that dream Cadence's or Flurry's? Why is the Doctor lurking around the maze? Are those Applejack's parents? Will ever Princess Derpy?!

Ayhem. Let's get back to Starlight.

I've mentioned before that, from where I'm standing, the relationship between Twilight Sparkle and Sunset Shimmer seemed less like one between two friends and more like a recovering addict and their rehabilitation officer, and rightfully so. For her entire life, Starlight had been using magic as a shortcut and, if you look closely, when her first attempt to get the princesses talking to each other fails, the impetus for her brute forcing yet another problem doesn't seem to be desperation as much as frustration and moments later she becomes aware of the gravity of her actions. Hilariously enough, even through all of the terror, she manages to keep her direct honesty. And while she definitely had more avenues to force Celestia and Luna to talk to each other, whether calling on the fact that the Map sent her to them, or even cashing in on the fact that she saved them from Chrysalis, talking is not her strong point. All her life, she'd specialized in leadership and magic, and when pushed into a situation where she can't command attention, let alone authority, she reflexively reached for the hammer.

So, after her Twilight helpfully pushes her along the road to a full blown neurosis, seeing her nightmare is kind of a given. And since Luna barely made it through Celestia's day, it's natural that Celestia would be hilariously unprepared for a night in Luna's shoes. And once the nightmare starts rolling, there's not much to do than sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the ride. And what a ride it is - nevermind just the appearance of Daybreaker, hearing Nicole Oliver cut loose and ham it up to eleven was a cherry on a cake.

But another surprising thing is that, instead of taking two of the most common tropes for stopping the dream entities - reaching out to Starlight or working together with Luna, it reminded us that there will be problems that we need to solve without relying on anyone else, and that encouragement from someone we trust and respect can help us find the strength we need to achieve what seems like an unreachable goal.

So, in the end, I think we've had a total of three, make that four morals. First, that when dealing with hard work yourself, it's easy to fall into the trap of believing that someone else has it much easier than you, and it often helps to talk to them about it - not only to keep it from bottling up, but to get their perspective as well. Then, there's the reminder that no tool is inherently good or bad by itself, but rather, how it's used. Starlight using magic to switch their cutie marks was a right call - not the right call, as there may have been others - but after several harsh lessons where trying to magic others into doing what you say, it's easy to see how she'd start associating it with Something She Should Never Do, and it's a good thing to be reminded that, when all you have is a hammer, sometimes a problem really is a nail. Third, that it's a good thing to be able to self-reliant - sometimes you don't have friends or family to help you, and there's nothing left but give up or step up to the challenge. And finally... no matter how interested you are, no matter how much of an emotional stake you have in a situation, if someone {or something, in this case}  wiser and better informed puts a person in charge of solving it, it's often a good idea to step off, especially when they make it clear you're not helping.

But I don't think Twilight got that one just yet.

 

 

[Thrond 3,263]

After dwelling on it, I think my issue with Starlight in this (aside from her usual blandness) is that the episode doesn't clearly articulate the stakes. I don't believe using magic was necessary because the episode never explains why Celestia and Luna's issues need to be sorted out with such drastic measures. Twilight says Luna could become Nightmare Moon, but Twilight is a silly pony prone to exaggerating consequences, and since we don't really know how Nightmare Moon came to be, it's hard to understand whether Twilight has a point or not, and so I was led to think she was exaggerating. Starlight questions whether she made the right decision, but while her method works, nothing in the episode convinces me it was necessary.

Similarly, it's hard to believe that Starlight's nightmare is a sufficient consequence for her cutie mark spell, because it's never explained why this particular nightmare is so severe. I understand dreams as something which tends to be mostly forgotten and dismissed once you wake up, and more likely the symptom of a problem than the cause of one. So it seems that Starlight will forget the nightmare and internalize only the positive reinforcement; in other words, I feel the praise she got will prove her anxiety unfounded. 

I sort of have to come to terms with it, however, because changing either of those might ruin Starlight's self-doubt, which I actually quite liked. Either an acknowledgement that Starlight should have done something else or any evidence that the cutie mark swap was necessary would make this episode even better for me.

4 hours ago, Quinch said:

Sunset Shimmer

You mean Starlight Glimmer? 

[Quinch 1,120]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

You mean Starlight Glimmer? 

-facepalms-

Sorry. It's been a long post.

[Quinch 1,120]

34 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

After dwelling on it, I think my issue with Starlight in this (aside from her usual blandness) is that the episode doesn't clearly articulate the stakes. I don't believe using magic was necessary because the episode never explains why Celestia and Luna's issues need to be sorted out with such drastic measures.

I might have a counterpoint, but just so I'm not making too many assumptions, what do you mean by necessary? Necessary as it would be to solve the issue as framed by the story {i.e. "this is how I'd solve this"}, or necessary to move the story forward?

[Thrond 3,263]

3 minutes ago, Quinch said:

I might have a counterpoint, but just so I'm not making too many assumptions, what do you mean by necessary? Necessary as it would be to solve the issue as framed by the story {i.e. "this is how I'd solve this"}, or necessary to move the story forward?

To solve the issue. I appreciate the way it drives the story while still being troubled that Starlight is praised for it.

[Quinch 1,120]

52 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

To solve the issue. I appreciate the way it drives the story while still being troubled that Starlight is praised for it.

You do raise the question of what the alternative would be. Bear in mind that while definitely... shall we say, impolite, it was a fairly low-risk decision. Ultimately, it also succeeded in bringing the two sisters together. Thus, given the circumstances, would it be fair to criticize Starlight Shimmer for her methods?

[Thrond 3,263]

21 minutes ago, Quinch said:

You do raise the question of what the alternative would be. Bear in mind that while definitely... shall we say, impolite, it was a fairly low-risk decision. Ultimately, it also succeeded in bringing the two sisters together. Thus, given the circumstances, would it be fair to criticize Starlight Shimmer for her methods?

The sisters seem comfortable with it, but cutie marks seem like a big deal, and having the wrong one has been proven to be distressing in the past. I guess the time failsafe makes it better than it would otherwise be, but I dunno, it still feels kinda alarming that she's rewarded for doing something like that. 

[Batbrony 16,054]

Good morning, everypony!  Well, for those of us who've waited for this episode, if the early reviews are anything to go by, we are in for quite the treat this morning, and as someone who's always happy to see as much of Princess Celestia and Princess Luna as possible, I couldn't be more thrilled!  I've wanted an episode centered on these two and their relationship as sisters for a long time, so here's hoping for a truly wonderful and memorable episode, and just the first of hopefully many more to come centered on our favorite Royal Sisters!!!   

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

Can't wait to finally see this one! Really excited!

[Batbrony 16,054]

Heheh, I do love it when things manage these days to bring out Twilight's old-freak out tendencies.   She's usually got such a good handle on it nowadays, but that makes the times she does flip out and go all OCD all the funnier.

Also, why am I not surprised that Celestia would be bad at spotting or fessing up to a personal problem between her sister and herself?  She's fantastic at overseeing all of Equestria, but it seems family issues still elude her to some extent. 

Called it.  And trust me, as an older sibling, I can attest to the fact that we siblings often HATE confronting our own issues with each other until we're blowing up at one another.  'Tis very much a fact of sibling-hood. 

[Batbrony 16,054]

OK, so... that episode was pretty much perfect in every single way imaginable and is easily the best episode of Season 7 so far.  Yeah... that's a bit of a mouthful but I think it's very much true.  Don't worry everypony, I very much plan on having my review for this one up today, it was too good not to review as soon as I possibly can!  Goodness gracious me, I needed an episode this amazing after the last couple of episodes.  Until my review is posted, later everypony, and huzzah for a perfect episode!!! 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

35 minutes ago, Batbrony said:

Heheh, I do love it when things manage these days to bring out Twilight's old-freak out tendencies.   She's usually got such a good handle on it nowadays, but that makes the times she does flip out and go all OCD all the funnier.

Yup. This is the pony who makes checklists for the steps of making a checklist, and then wonders why she runs out of stationary so often....

Oh, and flashbacks to the freakout when she thought she didn't have a friendship problem to report to Celestia....

3 minutes ago, Batbrony said:

OK, so... that episode was pretty much perfect in every single way imaginable and is easily the best episode of Season 7 so far.  Yeah... that's a bit of a mouthful but I think it's very much true.  Don't worry everypony, I very much plan on having my review for this one up today, it was too good not to review as soon as I possibly can!  Goodness gracious me, I needed an episode this amazing after the last couple of episodes.  Until my review is posted, later everypony, and huzzah for a perfect episode!!! 

Definitely in my top five ever, and amazed they packed so much awesomeness into one single episode.  Will look forward to your review