Why do so many people praise To Where and Back Again?

[Jade Fire 7,059]

2 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

1. Starlight has been one of my favorite characters dating back to S5. However, her critics had very solid arguments against her in S6, and many of her roles in S6 suck. The Crystalling, Tail, and Times were her best appearances, but they could've done far more to write her a whole lot better and make her an inclusive part of the cast.

2. "Butthurt" is an ad hominem with homophobic and misogynistic implications. You're only hurting your point and helping the OP's by using it.

that ridiculous. it's just a turn of phase. thats like saying "the pot calling the kettle black" is racist xD

as for your 1st point, its true, but they had their hands tied. they wanted to make her a main character from that start, but hasbro wanted to see how she played out first, so they where forced to put her into a reoccurring character role.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Jade Fire

[Ganondorf8 11,362]

It took me a couple of watches to see that it was a pretty good finale that allowed the secondary characters to shine and brought back a villain who ended up remaining as such without the whole reformation gimmick. Granted, it wasn't perfect due to time constraints resulting in certain events happening off-screen but what we did get was worthy of the praise it receives.

[Star Petal 215]

Because the pacing is perfect, and the fact that it doesn't end in mane six friendship is beyond amazing! Plus, Starlight Glimmer is a great character and the best addition to the mane six since, well, she is the only addition. 

[Jade Fire 7,059]

8 minutes ago, Star Petal said:

Because the pacing is perfect, and the fact that it doesn't end in mane six friendship is beyond amazing! Plus, Starlight Glimmer is a great character and the best addition to the mane six since, well, she is the only addition. 

you sir, have a subscriber ^-^

[M'gann M'orzz 745]

1 hour ago, Dark Qiviut said:

•  

Because it was fun? It was really enjoyable to watch? had fun character interactions and stuff? Really I could tear apart just about anything ever for plot holes, but I don't. Why? Because the point of entertainment... is to Entertain. And the S6 finale was really freaking entertaining.

Like I could make this exact same thread about the S2 finale.. and the reason for loving it would pretty much be the same, 

Also why the hell am  I quoting Qivuit on a stand alone post without choosing to do so? this is really damn werid and I can't seem to delete it. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by M'gann M'orzz

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,162]

Well, I kinda have to praise it. It's my favorite episode of the entire series; and this is coming from someone who held "The Crystal Empire" in that position for a LONG time.

1. I love the hodgepodge of characters, how they play off of each other, and at the start don't know what they need to do. Even when they are in the Changeling hive they are still clueless, but continue on anyway. That perseverance appealed to me.

2. Starlight is easily amongst my favorite characters these days, and her dealing with her inner demons and trying to overcome that I thought was a great struggle. Her anxiety over coming back to the town felt legitimate, and her dream really intensified that.

3. I also low how Trixie was portrayed: she would do anything for her friend, but still has that lovable ego. <3

4. Chrysalis is part happy, part creepy, and I just love it. <3

5. The feeling of tension, and the over all atmosphere feel heavy, and that is something I can appreciate.

Not sure what else I can say ATM. Of course it's not perfect, but no episode is. This one jus appeals to me. <3

[Babyyoshi309 1,829]

2 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Chrysalis kidnapping Starlight's friends and the Royal Family drove Starlight into forming that hodgepodge team. How they were kidnapped is actually very vital to TWaBA, because it's the glue that holds everything together. Since they were caught so easily, Chrysalis admitting to Starlight that she wasn't worth being kidnapped in Part 2 (while Spike, who's objectively much weaker than her, is), and the increased stakes in the two-parter, it requires explanation. With it missing, the entire story makes no sense.

A couple of reasons explaining why.

1. To Where requires the background to be fully realized prior. Unfortunately, FIM's habit of piecemealing seasonal arcs hurts the episode massively.
   
   Following Tail, Starlight only had two major appearances leading up to it: Times, and Every Little Thing She Does. That's way too few episodes with arc as important and game-changing as hers. ELTSD is one of her worst episodes, because she chose to hypnotize Twilight's friends and strip them of their free will when she was really composed. It took Twilight scolding and being disappointed in her to realize her awful mistake. Also, S6 had many opportunities to plug her in somewhere, including Dungeons & Discord as a silent cameo, but she was treated as a character to be written when the arc demanded it.
   
   Both Thorax and Trixie only appeared once prior to the finale. To Where treats Thorax's change as an arc that will build up into something even bigger during the season. One big problem: The audience won't fully buy into Thorax's arc and ascension as king unless they see him actually grow into his own. To go from Times to To Where is way too big of a leap to be convincing. The same applies to Trixie's appearance from No Second Prances (where her manipulation of Starlight caused a fallout and her near-death) to here.
   
   Because the arc was was written sporadically, exposition was required to fill in the gaps, leaving behind unrealized arcs. Quite frankly, they were way too important to be this empty.
2. For their entire lives, the changelings were raised to fight and steal the love from others. In the last five minutes, Starlight was able to verbally convince a brainwashed hive into changing their ways permanently. This isn't like what happened with both The Cutie Map or Re-Mark, where TW was partially inspired by. In the former, Fluttershy caught Starlight not practicing what she preached and outed her in front of the entire village next morning; when they realized she lied to them, they were stunned, confused, and betrayed. In the latter, Twilight showed Starlight the consequences of her actions, and those actions caused her to eventually become angry and delirious; TS had to treat her like equal to convince her to change her ways and give the Magic of Friendship another chance.

I am pretty sure the reason why Chrysalis did not replace Starlight was because Starlight was out of town while the changelings invaded... Her "not being worth replacing" was just kind of an excuse. Though even if it was an accurate statement, Starlight's only friends are the mane 6 and few others. Spike has way more power and popularity among the citizens of Equestria. He is famous in the Crystal Empire, meanwhile hardly anyone even knows who Starlight is.

As for how Chrysalis took over? I do not know, but the same thin happened in the season 2 finale, and no one questioned it than.

 

As for point 1, that is not really a problem with the episode, that is a problem with the show.

 

And point 2 I will have to agree with. The changelings all of the sudden deciding to sacrifice everything simultaneously was extremely strange. They have been told their whole lives that giving away your "love" would kill you. So why would they listen to some random person (whom of which they have been trying to capture for hours) tells them that it will make them look cool. It is the equivalent of a thief telling some people that if they jumped off a cliff than they would get superpowers. Than those people jump off the cliff without even thinking twice. 

[KH7672 1,604]

7 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

If we use a similar example from Gargoyles here, we can classify what happened with Twilight et al as a plot hole, too:

What happened in that episode is a plot hole, because the episode required Broadway to be informed Angela and Bronx were in jail prior. The plot hole is worse, for Angela and B'way are soulmates.

Chrysalis kidnapping Starlight's friends and the Royal Family drove Starlight into forming that hodgepodge team. How they were kidnapped is actually very vital to TWaBA, because it's the glue that holds everything together. Since they were caught so easily, Chrysalis admitting to Starlight that she wasn't worth being kidnapped in Part 2 (while Spike, who's objectively much weaker than her, is), and the increased stakes in the two-parter, it requires explanation. With it missing, the entire story makes no sense.

Sorry, but your example does not help your case in the slightest because they are totally different things. The example you give is of a character knowing unknowable information prior which is a plot hole as a leap in logical deduction. This doesn't happen with Starlight and company. Because never once does she believe it is changelings until Luna tells her. The entire time prior all she thinks is "huh, they're acting weird" not "oh no they're acting weird they must be changelings." And if you want to take it further with how did they know where they were being held, they didn't. Discord explicitly states his teleportation spell was locked onto Fluttershy's location. If you want to question the limits of the Spirit of Chaos then I have nothing else to say.

Now has for that explanation on "How" yes that would be a plot hole.....if Starlight was present during it the entire time and skipped over! They didn't take Starlight because she was out of town suddenly and they weren't going to wait for her to come back and risk the plan for those she already had in mind. I've already said Chrysalis was clearly only deadset on the perpetrators of "A Canterlot Wedding" (with Flurry and Luna caught up due to their relation and power). Who says they were caught too easily. It's made clear the Journey to the village is several days (albeit not explicitly stated) but context clues show Starlight first arrived at the beginning of the festival and then came back at near the end or when it was almost over so a week at least passed and it was only a day for the entire rescue so it clearly took at least a couple days to execute the kidnapping. No need to wait around and extend this plan just for a pony whom Chrysalis didn't even bother to coach her changeling replacements on, she was that insignificant.

Edited September 29, 2017 by KH7672

[heavens-champion 1,905]

8 hours ago, ChikoritaCheezits said:

Because people have different tastes than you? 

You say that like I don't know that.

[cmarston1 5,959]

I generally like the episode for its entertaining character interactions, and generally I had a good amount of fun with it.

As flawed as it is, I still enjoyed it for being able to entertain me, which is what I consider the most important thing when I watch the show.

Which is why I prefer something as flawed as any of the EQG movies over episodes like Bloom and Gloom and The Cutie Map, as the two episodes may get a lot of critical praise around the fandom, but they left a dull impression on me, and I don't really care for watching them anytime again, while the EQG movies are able to keep my attention and I have had a lot of fun watching them, and enjoy them a lot more than episodes like those two.

[Jeric 46,860]

6 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Chrysalis kidnapping Starlight's friends and the Royal Family drove Starlight into forming that hodgepodge team. How they were kidnapped is actually very vital to TWaBA, because it's the glue that holds everything together. Since they were caught so easily, Chrysalis admitting to Starlight that she wasn't worth being kidnapped in Part 2 (while Spike, who's objectively much weaker than her, is), and the increased stakes in the two-parter, it requires explanation. With it missing, the entire story makes no sense.

This guy would disagree with that entire paragraph, and so would the Television Hall of Fame. 

 

[Sly 236]

14 minutes ago, Jeric said:

This guy would disagree with that entire paragraph, and so would the Television Hall of Fame. 

Honestly, for the very first time in my entire life, I agreed with a negative opinion from him. But one of the MANY reasons I hate this finale, it's the hate against the Mane 6 it generated. Ever since this finale aired I've seen more and more hate against the Mane 6 (many people who claimed to love them for years are  nowDEMANDING their removal from the show since then, a proper Anti-Mane 6 movement) and this was one of the many factors that made me deciding quitting MLP very soon. I despise traitors, and most of all, I despise people who betray their own words to live in hate and anger. 

I just know things are gonna get worse with the next season as Haber will retake the head of writing and will use the same exploit another time in the premiere already, so it's better for me to leave before that happens. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Sly

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

2 minutes ago, Sly said:

it's the hate against the Mane 6 it generated. Ever since this finale aired I've seen more and more hate against the Mane 6 (many people who claimed to love them for years are  nowDEMANDING their removal from the show since then, a proper Anti-Mane 6 movement)

I don't know what sites you are visiting or where you are seeing this "upheaval" of hatred for the main characters and the demand for their removal, but I am not seeing it, which leads me to believe you are exaggerating. There are fans of the characters who like and do not like certain characters... for example there are some RD fans who really are not big fans of Fluttershy, to the point where they don't necessarily HATE her, but they really don't like her or her episodes... and this goes for everyone else. I am a big fan of Twilight, but I know of at least one member of this site who really dislikes her and wishes she would go away... and that is OK, we are allowed to have different tastes and opinions, it does not in anyway change my opinion just because someone else does not share it... it just means that for a couple of episodes a season they just will be forced to sit it out or be unhappy. Life goes on. I suggest you do the same and quit dwelling on the comments of a handful of internet trolls... life will be a lot easier.

TWaBA was one extended episode (I don't count two parters as two episodes). One. Uno. As in singular. It hardly rewrote the entire franchise and laid the groundwork for an entirely new show. No one was removed and no one was added to replace anyone else...  at best it just threw out some new plot points and story ideas for future episodes which seems to be paying off going by many reactions.

If you loved it, great! If you thought it was an abomination, great! It is simple to ignore... just like every other episode in the series. You never have to watch it again if you don't want to. But letting it bother you so much that it erases everything that has come before, and wipes away everything that is yet to be is a preposterous way of thinking to me and not something anyone claiming to love the show as a whole would say.

[Sly 236]

6 minutes ago, GrimGrimoire said:

Cut

Ironically enough, despite my deep hate against it, I really liked the follow up in it with Celestial Advice, Triple Treat and To Change a Changeling (yet again, Starlight and the new Changelings never had any impact on my hate for this episode, the problems for me were others), but that doesn't change my position anyway. It might have been just one episode but it really devastated my hype for the show one year ago. It came back with the S7, but I just know that things will go down again soon with Haber returning at the head of the writing.... and you can't seem to be wrong... when you have the evidence right in front of you (I won't say more in case you prefer to avoid spoilers and as such you haven't watched the S8 premiere sneak peak appeared at HASCON).

Besides I already went there plenty of times Grim, I just don't want keep going on this, and I have more important things to do as well now. I will just enjoy the remaining five episodes of the S7.... then it's over for me.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

I don't think it is, a lot of people like it but from what I have seen the majority still find it under most other 2 parters.

The reason I like it because the characterization of our main cast (Thorax, Trixie, Discord, Starlight) was on point, they all played really well off of each other and had good chemistry, it had a good ending especially, that's what I remember it for, the moments with Chrysalis and Starlight are really great.

That said I do think it has it's flaws, the dark stone being a stupid plot mcguffin, the lighter more comedic tone of a lot of scenes (but there are plenty of dark ones, like Discord in the Flutterroom) the heavy downtime throughout each episode. Part 1 feeling as though nothing of importance was happening until the end.

When I think back to the Cutie Remark part 1, we got the Cutie mark lesson, Twilight returning to ponyville, the time spell, Starlight stopping the rainboom, Sombras future, Starlights anger speech, and the start of the Chrysalis timeline in 1 EPISODE, fantastic pacing there.

I like To Where and Back Again, but If I had to place it among the others...

1. The Cutie Remark
2. Twilight's Kingdom
3. The Cutie Map
4. Princess Twilight Sparkle
5. Return of Harmony
6. A Canterlot Wedding
7. To Where and Back Again/The Crystal Empire
8. The Crystalling
9. Friendship is magic

I think these are all really great episodes though besides 8 and 9. I think 5,6, and 7 are pretty close in quality as well.

[Tilgoreth 1,915]

For myself I'd also add that it was pretty easy to like Starlight. She's the type of character I tend to like anyways, but I was already expecting. Since season six was spoiled for me, by the time I finished all the other five seasons I was already expecting her to show up for awhile. 

The same goes for this finale. I already knew for awhile that it wouldn't invove the mane six.

[Thrond 3,263]

15 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

With it missing, the entire story makes no sense.

I really don't see how. Made perfect sense to me. 

15 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

For their entire lives, the changelings were raised to fight and steal the love from others. In the last five minutes, Starlight was able to verbally convince a brainwashed hive into changing their ways permanently.

I think you're approaching it the wrong way. The way Chrysalis ran things literally had Changelings on the brink of starvation. They were shown a way to not starve anymore, so it's not that hard to believe they'd take it. We're never shown that they followed Chrysalis for any reason other than not knowing any other way. Admittedly, the episode never explains how they transformed, but the why seems pretty clear. 

[Jeric 46,860]

1 hour ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I really don't see how. Made perfect sense to me. 

I think you're approaching it the wrong way. The way Chrysalis ran things literally had Changelings on the brink of starvation. They were shown a way to not starve anymore, so it's not that hard to believe they'd take it. We're never shown that they followed Chrysalis for any reason other than not knowing any other way. Admittedly, the episode never explains how they transformed, but the why seems pretty clear. 

It's how I see that as well. To add to it ...

Check out the hive's reactions as they go from "Defend Chrysalis" to "Protect Thorax and Friends" when Crysallis shows up. Heck check out the emotional shift at the mention of one key phrase ... 

"You don't have to live your lives starving all the time."

There. That's when Starlight starts to win. From this point on the reaction shots alone tell a story. From that quote  to when they stand by Thorax with their war faces on.

I invite anyone to turn off the audio and just watch the scene. This is actually a nifty technique at watching a lot of films, but it really shines in animation. 

Hunger, perpetual hunger, makes one more open to alternatives. It's been a great driver throughout history. 

[Once In A Blue Moon 895]

I liked it because it did a lot of things right. Bits like the anti-magic zone and the sudden capture of everypony and their dog did raise an eyebrow, but those were the exception rather than the rule. As has been stated, the episodes are good fun - the deception tricks played on the changelings in the anti-magic zone were clever and well done, the characters were a delight to watch and I especially liked how it borrowed themes from Lord of the Rings and made into a good story in their own right.

The themes worked well too. Whereas in all of our Mane 6 two-parters Twilight and her friends (but Twilight in particular) have always faced up to the threat without a second thought* Starlight is far less inclined to do so. Whilst the 'reluctant hero' trope is a bit of a cliche it hasn't really been used in MLP, so far as I can recall, and it suits Starlight and her repentance arc. On that subject, I liked that it took the 'reformed villain' theme and ran with it; if Starlight, Trixie, Discord and Thorax hadn't all been reformed then Queen Chrysalis would have won. Equestria was saved because the Mane 6 helped reform old enemies - a massive payoff for the now long-running theme of forgiveness, and that is one theme that I am always happy to see promoted.

 

*(at least initially, or in the case of Tirek's escape, *wanted* to face up to the threat)

[Dark Qiviut 22,445]

16 hours ago, Babyyoshi309 said:

I am pretty sure the reason why Chrysalis did not replace Starlight was because Starlight was out of town while the changelings invaded... Her "not being worth replacing" was just kind of an excuse. Though even if it was an accurate statement, Starlight's only friends are the mane 6 and few others. Spike has way more power and popularity among the citizens of Equestria. He is famous in the Crystal Empire, meanwhile hardly anyone even knows who Starlight is.

As for how Chrysalis took over? I do not know, but the same thin happened in the season 2 finale, and no one questioned it than.

Chrysalis knew that Starlight was Twilight's pupil, out of town, and could have her replaced if she wanted to. She chose not to:

Quote

Queen Chrysalis: Well, well, well. The Princess of Friendship's sole pupil. Honestly, I didn't think you were worth replacing with one of my drones.

She's saying SG isn't worth replacing. If she didn't know Starlight was ultra-powerful and smart, I'd be okay. But to suggest she knew about how much stock Twilight invests on her, yet let her go when they had the chance to capture her ahead of time turns her into a mega-idiot.

Secondly, in ACW, even though we don't see Chrysalis kidnapping Cadance and trading places with her, how she captured and sent Twilight to the same caves provides clearer pieces to the puzzle than TWaBA. The same applies with how she defeated and captured Celestia.

16 hours ago, Babyyoshi309 said:

As for point 1, that is not really a problem with the episode, that is a problem with the show.

It's a fair point in general. Unfortunately, TWaBA is so reliant on their growth that Thorax and Starlight are underdeveloped leading into the finale, yet the episode tries to convince the audience they're ready.

15 hours ago, KH7672 said:

Sorry, but your example does not help your case in the slightest because they are totally different things. The example you give is of a character knowing unknowable information prior which is a plot hole as a leap in logical deduction. This doesn't happen with Starlight and company.

Look at what makes both the plot hole through a general sense. Why are they plot holes? Because what happened in both To Where and Angels of the Night were unexplained. There were gaps that could've been explained rather easily, either through a line or two of dialogue or visuals. Even though Broadway knew Angela was in jail, someone explaining to him what had happened would've made a big difference. In TWaBA, Starlight may not have to be explained how Chrysalis and her hive kidnapped Twilight, her friends, and Royals, but how they're captured is very important in a story sense.

Since the comparison with the Gargoyles episode is a little out of left field, let's use one from Rainbow Falls.

This team of Dash, Bulk Biceps, and Fluttershy preparing to practice for the Equestria Games is a plot hole. Fluttershy has sorts of problems (including why she would volunteer to take part in this ponified Olympics when she tried to excuse herself out of a civic duty), but the bizarre team itself is formed as such just for plot convenience. There's no explanation at any point why either Bulk or FS would agree to take part of the aerial relay race. And from what was shown later, take part in an event they're bad at and don't care about at all. No, it doesn't need some knee-deep, paragraph-heavy reasons and visuals. A couple of lines of dialogue explaining why the team formed the way it is would work okay. A handwave would give the audience something. Instead, this gap foreshadows the rest of the incompetent storytelling that followed.

15 hours ago, KH7672 said:

Now has for that explanation on "How" yes that would be a plot hole.....if Starlight was present during it the entire time and skipped over!

Starlight being there or not changes nothing. Chrysalis created such an elaborate and brazen scheme that they were able to overpower and capture the ReMane 7, probably one of the Royal Sisters, the entire Crystal Family, and Sunburst during the height of daytime while Starlight and Trixie were gone for at least a few hours. All but Spike and FH are protectors of Equestria and their respective kingdoms. Cadance and SA would fight tooth and nail against the changeling hive: Flurry isn't just a love magnet, but also their baby! TCE raised alarm by the sight of ONE changeling, so an army would cause a preparation for battle. If the changelings and especially Chrysalis want to be treated as a serious and credible threat, then we as an audience should SEE them act like one. No, the changelings invading the dream realm and kidnapping Luna ain't enough. To Where relies so much on plot armor and forces the audience to guess how the bridge that connects their kidnapping and Starlight's motivation into action is constructed. It's a fatal plot hole.

Although ACW, Princess Twilight Sparkle, and Twilight's Kingdom have some wishy-washy writing and explanations to their stories, they show how Celestia (and Luna and Cadance) were captured. Sometimes doing it poorly is better than not doing it at all, and that applies here.

15 hours ago, KH7672 said:

Who says they were caught too easily.

Because that's what the episode suggested with Luna. The fact that she was captured without much of a fight implies to the audience that the changelings were able to kidnap the others just as easily.

15 hours ago, KH7672 said:

No need to wait around and extend this plan just for a pony whom Chrysalis didn't even bother to coach her changeling replacements on, she was that insignificant.

On the contrary. If she was smart and competent, then she would wait patiently and make sure every threat to her plans was taken care of. Chrysalis comprehended how much stock Twilight puts into her pupil, and under the story's current structure, the changeling hive was more than capable of taking her down right there. If Spike is as credible a threat to her plot, then so is SG. But Chrysalis's mentality crosses from cocky into stupid just because the plot demanded it. In the series, Chrysalis is so dumb that she thought sending Twilight to the same caves as the real Cadance and mind-controlling SA during the wedding ceremony — with Celestia two feet in front of her — were great ideas. If I wanna watch certain TV blockheads, I'll watch Gumby, not (one of) the worst written episode(s) of the entire season.

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Dark Qiviut

[Babyyoshi309 1,829]

1 hour ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Chrysalis knew that Starlight was Twilight's pupil, out of town, and could have her replaced if she wanted to. She chose not to:

She's saying SG isn't worth replacing. If she didn't know Starlight was ultra-powerful and smart, I'd be okay. But to suggest she knew about how much stock Twilight invests on her, yet let her go when they had the chance to capture her ahead of time turns her into a mega-idiot.

 

It's a fair point in general. Unfortunately, TWaBA is so reliant on their growth that Thorax and Starlight are underdeveloped leading into the finale, yet the episode tries to convince the audience they're ready.

Like I said, even if she did choose not to replace Starlight, she had no idea Starlight would reform her soldiers. So with that in mind, Starlight could do nothing. She has no political power. Her only friends are the mane 6. And Starlight could not use magic to defeat Chrysalis. The only way Starlight could possibly defeat Chrysalis was by turning her soldiers against her, and since Chrysalis had no reason to believe that could happen, it makes sense that she chose not to replace Starlight.

 

And to the second point, ready for what??? 

[Dark Qiviut 22,445]

17 minutes ago, Babyyoshi309 said:

And to the second point, ready for what??? 

Apologies for the vague wording. "Ready" meaning they developed to the point where they break through the status quo. For Starlight, turning a page on her life and fully putting her past behind her. For Thorax, becoming changeling king.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Dark Qiviut

[Thrond 3,263]

2 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Chrysalis knew that Starlight was Twilight's pupil, out of town, and could have her replaced if she wanted to. She chose not to:

Quote

Queen Chrysalis: Well, well, well. The Princess of Friendship's sole pupil. Honestly, I didn't think you were worth replacing with one of my drones.

She's saying SG isn't worth replacing. If she didn't know Starlight was ultra-powerful and smart, I'd be okay. But to suggest she knew about how much stock Twilight invests on her, yet let her go when they had the chance to capture her ahead of time turns her into a mega-idiot.

Chrysalis is also a major egotist who was probably convinced her plan was great enough that she didn't need to replace Starlight. An emotionally unstable pony without any political power? Not much use, and she nearly succeeded even with Starlight not accounted for. As @Babyyoshi309 said, Starlight's magic was accounted for, and she probably intended to capture Thorax, so what's the point of capturing Starlight?

Plus, Chrysalis being an arrogant hothead who makes serious oversights fits how I've always perceived her, and it doesn't make her any less entertaining to me. Besides, she always comes close to succeeding anyway. 

[KH7672 1,604]

3 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Look at what makes both the plot hole through a general sense. Why are they plot holes? Because what happened in both To Where and Angels of the Night were unexplained. There were gaps that could've been explained rather easily, either through a line or two of dialogue or visuals. Even though Broadway knew Angela was in jail, someone explaining to him what had happened would've made a big difference. In TWaBA, Starlight may not have to be explained how Chrysalis and her hive kidnapped Twilight, her friends, and Royals, but how they're captured is very important in a story sense.

Since the comparison with the Gargoyles episode is a little out of left field, let's use one from Rainbow Falls.

This team of Dash, Bulk Biceps, and Fluttershy preparing to practice for the Equestria Games is a plot hole. Fluttershy has sorts of problems (including why she would volunteer to take part in this ponified Olympics when she tried to excuse herself out of a civic duty), but the bizarre team itself is formed as such just for plot convenience. There's no explanation at any point why either Bulk or FS would agree to take part of the aerial relay race. And from what was shown later, take part in an event they're bad at and don't care about at all. No, it doesn't need some knee-deep, paragraph-heavy reasons and visuals. A couple of lines of dialogue explaining why the team formed the way it is would work okay. A handwave would give the audience something. Instead, this gap foreshadows the rest of the incompetent storytelling that followed.

Starlight being there or not changes nothing. Chrysalis created such an elaborate and brazen scheme that they were able to overpower and capture the ReMane 7, probably one of the Royal Sisters, the entire Crystal Family, and Sunburst during the height of daytime while Starlight and Trixie were gone for at least a few hours. All but Spike and FH are protectors of Equestria and their respective kingdoms. Cadance and SA would fight tooth and nail against the changeling hive: Flurry isn't just a love magnet, but also their baby! TCE raised alarm by the sight of ONE changeling, so an army would cause a preparation for battle. If the changelings and especially Chrysalis want to be treated as a serious and credible threat, then we as an audience should SEE them act like one. No, the changelings invading the dream realm and kidnapping Luna ain't enough. To Where relies so much on plot armor and forces the audience to guess how the bridge that connects their kidnapping and Starlight's motivation into action is constructed. It's a fatal plot hole.

Although ACW, Princess Twilight Sparkle, and Twilight's Kingdom have some wishy-washy writing and explanations to their stories, they show how Celestia (and Luna and Cadance) were captured. Sometimes doing it poorly is better than not doing it at all, and that applies here.

Because that's what the episode suggested with Luna. The fact that she was captured without much of a fight implies to the audience that the changelings were able to kidnap the others just as easily.

On the contrary. If she was smart and competent, then she would wait patiently and make sure every threat to her plans was taken care of. Chrysalis comprehended how much stock Twilight puts into her pupil, and under the story's current structure, the changeling hive was more than capable of taking her down right there. If Spike is as credible a threat to her plot, then so is SG. But Chrysalis's mentality crosses from cocky into stupid just because the plot demanded it. In the series, Chrysalis is so dumb that she thought sending Twilight to the same caves as the real Cadance and mind-controlling SA during the wedding ceremony — with Celestia two feet in front of her — were great ideas. If I wanna watch certain TV blockheads, I'll watch Gumby, not (one of) the worst written episode(s) of the entire season.

Listen all I was saying from the beginning is people are using the term "plot hole" wrong. Sorry, but your "Rainbow Falls" example is still something totally different. This is "an unexplained explanation causing a leap in logic a.k.a. a plot hole" vs "an unexplained explanation that can logically work but was not deemed worthy enough to elaborate on a.k.a. an off-screen handwave and not a plot hole." As you said there is no handwave (besides that scene on the train but that was just two ponies) so there is no logical explanation why Rainbow Dash would choose the characters she did when there are so many others (like all those in Hurricane Fluttershy) to chose from. That is a plot hole, a leap in logic for a character contrary to previously established plot points. Nothing and I mean nothing in Chrysalis' plan requires a leap in logic. With absolutely no headcanons on how I view Chrysalis as a character, a stealth plan would probably be the obvious choice especially when the plan is not to alarm anyone of her presence or the decoy changelings. I mean that's the entire point of a changeling is to change to hide their appearance. That's it, that's all I'm trying to say. Hate the episode all you want for your own reasons, that's fine but stop calling those reasons plot holes...WHEN THEY ARE NOT PLOT HOLES!

Edited September 30, 2017 by KH7672

[Hierok 11,832]

On 29-9-2017 at 8:42 AM, Jade Fire said:

i find that most of the people that hate on these episodes are starlight haters that are butthurt she was the star of the finale xD

What did you expect?