Is Celestia a manipulator who steals free will?

[NightOwl 911]

 

 

Not a manipulater in any way? No offense, but did you two even watch season 3's finale? How ells would you describe Celestia's plan? I'm not saying Celstia is evil or a bad ruler. But manipulative is pretty much totally what she is. To deny that is just... uhg.

 

 

Yes I did see the finale all she did was just plan out Twilight's future after seeing how talented she was at magic. Also, Twilight agreed to be Celestia's Student. 

[Zoraxe 546]

 

Yes I did see the finale all she did was just plan out Twilight's future after seeing how talented she was at magic. Also, Twilight agreed to be Celestia's Student. 

 

HA! Yes, all she did was select another person from a small age that isnt her child and plan out her entire life for her and then turn her into an alicorn, without asking, using a 'Batman Gambit' as a means of tricking her into it.

 

Thats totally what good teachers do.

 

 

Not necessarilly. Celestia is made to resemdle a teacher/authority figure who is sturn but can be fun at time, with what very little we know of her. She may come off as a tyrant at time but her intentions reflect nothing of the sort. She only wants the best for her student and subject, but can't get too involved. If she did, they would learn nothing and Celestia would be more of a mother figure than a guideing ruler. So she may come off as manipulative, and has made mistakes in her life, but in the end hasn't everything worked out to a positive outcome.

 

Your right, what i'm trying to say is that 'MMC' is a terrible episode with loads of terrible choices by the writers that seem counter to what Celestia is supposed to be.

 

What I really belive is not that Celestia is terrible, but that 'MMC' is just that bad an episode.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Zoraxe

[NightOwl 911]

 

 

HA! Yes, all she did was select another person from a small age that isnt her child and plan out her entire life for her and then turn her into an alicorn, without asking, using a 'Batman Gambit' as a means of tricking her into it.   Thats totally what good teachers do.

 

 

In my opinion I think it's great that Twilight became an Alicorn It will definitely help her character development. 

 

I just don't agree that Celestia is a manipulator, sorry. 

[Planty 1,052]

No, she is the benevolent an d wise ruler of Equestria. She is not a troll, a tyrant, or a molester. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that likes Celestia more than Luna. Hopefully the new comic coming out will develop her character, because the writers did an amazing job with developing the character of Luna.

 

Very true, She doesn't seem evil (unless she has some amazing plot for the future but I don't see how this would work).

 

I hope they do develop her in the comic series, I love the comics so much! And they can really give depth and development to her.

[Zoraxe 546]

 

 

In my opinion I think it's great that Twilight became an Alicorn It will definitely help her character development. 

 

I just don't agree that Celestia is a manipulator, sorry. 

 

I don't understand your position, I thought what Ive said has been very logical. Maybe if you argued why you think she isn't a manipulator, I might understand you better.

[NightOwl 911]

 

 

I don't understand your position, I thought what Ive said has been very logical. Maybe if you argued why you think she isn't a manipulator, I might understand you better.

 

What you said is fine I respect your opinion I just see Celestia as a kind and wise ruler for Equestria nothing more nothing less . 

[TheSupremeLeaderOfChaos 1,190]

Yes, of course. Trollestia is totally canon. Obviously, the fact that she has a troll pet confirms it.

 

I'm kidding. In maybe one of my headcanons, she's a tyrant, but that's only because of the song "The Beginning of Order". Really good song, by the way. Here's a link!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMVMReBZ6Cc

 

It's just really cool, so I have a small headcanon about it. But all of my others have Celestia as a ruler who just wants the best for her people. Of course she's going to be a troll at some points, I mean, who isn't? Plus, the opportunities are endless. Everyone seems to think that they have to hold her at the highest esteem possible, while she's just like, "Ponies, calm down. I'm just really tall compared to you. Jeez." So, yeah, I don't think she takes free will away from the ponies. They seem to have quite a lot of free will, for being ruled by a monarchy. And as much as I tease her for being a troll, she is a really good princess.

[Dark Horn 430]

She seems like a manipulator, but in a nice way. I mean, she hasn't done anything wrong. And if she didn't tell Twilight about her destiny, well, maybe it was for her own good.

[Anadu Kune 668]

But what does that say about Equestrian society?  I mean, what if a pony doesn't like their cutie mark?  How do they handle that situation?  Has it ever come up?  What if a pony wants to do something else in direct contradiciton to their cutie mark?

Well that doesn't really seem possible. The whole point to a cutie mark is that you receive it when you find your lot in life, the thing you are meant to do. One of the features of this seems to be that they really love what they do and find it fulfilling.  Really the whole plight of the Cutie Mark Crusaders seems to confirm this. They focus on the mark itself rather than what it means for a pony's life. They try different things repeatedly in an effort to cross things off a list. A cutie mark is about self discovery and realization. In all of the stories of receiving one has shown this. Fluttershy discovered she had a connection with animals and realized that's what she was good at and wanted to do. Rainbow Discovered her ability for speed and creating the sonic rainboom and realized she loved it. Applejack sought new horizons but found her true place of happiness and belonging was with her family on the farm. 

 

That's not to say that they cant learn new things and gain new hobbies and passions but they just wont be the main talent or position in their life. There's also the point that some cutie marks refer to places and people as well as talent like Applejack's cutie mark, and others refer to a specific talent that may be utilized in different ways like Rainbow Dash. Rainbow currently utilizes her speed in managing the weather for ponyville, however she can also utilize it in the Wonderbolts. This means some ponies will change occupations while their talent remains the same.

 

Cutie marks also seem to symbolize the nature and character of the pony. Rainbow Dash got her cutie mark in a demonstration of loyalty to Fluttershy and became the element of loyalty. Pinkie's cutie mark represents her ability to make others smile but also reflects her fun nature. Sometimes a cutie mark shows a connection to events or ponies yet to be such as Twilight's cutie mark. Really cutie marks are pretty complicated and vary in circumstance from pony to pony but they seem irrevocably connected to the very essence of the pony. 

[Zygen 6,065]

I dont think Celestia is a manipulator. Twilight is Celestia's student, she wanted to be her student, and she probably expected to succeed Celestia in some way sometime, maybe just not that soon.

 

Regardless Twilight did it out of her own free will. I don't think Celestia's manipulative at all though.

 

She is a very wise ruler, I'm sure she probaly knows whats best for Twilight better then Twilight does alot of times anyways.

[Zoraxe 546]

I dont think Celestia is a manipulator. Twilight is Celestia's student, she wanted to be her student, and she probably expected to succeed Celestia in some way sometime, maybe just not that soon.

 

Regardless Twilight did it out of her own free will. I don't think Celestia's manipulative at all though.

 

She is a very wise ruler, I'm sure she probaly knows whats best for Twilight better then Twilight does alot of times anyways.

 

What choice did Twilight have? To either fix the problem or just leave her friends all mixed up and unhappy? Its the spell that Celestia sent to Twilight that caused the mess, she knew Twilight would try to use it, thus Celestia caused all the problems Twilight had to fix. And, Celestia knew what would happen if Twilight fixed the problem. Twilight didd't know, all Twilight wanted to do was fix the problem.

 

Face it, Twilight was used. It sounds like something Discord would do. Actually, with all the "destinies" mixed up, Celestia in effect 'discorded' the Mane6 in order to get what she wants.

[Genepool 224]

I have to say yes, she is a manipulator to a certain extent. Personally, I see it more as her pushing them down a particular path when the individual/pony may want to do it a different way.  This doesn't mean she's self-absorbed to the point she believes it's only her way that works and she knows "everything" about "everything," however, I do wonder if this is what caused Luna to turn.  Perhaps Celestia kept pushing Luna down a particular path and the ponies viewed Celestia as the "wise ruler" who knew "what was best" to do in all situations.  Luna became jealous of this notion as Celestia kept getting the recognition and became Nightmare Moon because of it.   

 

 

[Mywas 687]

She is not. otherwise she would force the nobles and her nephew into becoming more like Fancy Pants againts their own will.

I am pretty sure she respects other ponies opinions and beliefs until they start hurting other ponies

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

Did anyone see Twilight as a future princess at the beginning of the series? Probably not. I know I didn't. Does Twilight need to be a princess to make a big difference in Equestria? No. She's already saved Ponyville, Canterlot, the Crystal Empire, and all of Equestria at least once. So, moving on from there...why is it so important to Celestia that Twilight be a princess, when she was already doing Equestria a world of good from outside the system? This is something to think about, canon or not. I hope Season 4 has a good answer.

 

Part of what I liked about the Mane 6 was their relative independence from the Canterlot royalty. They carried out Celestia's will when asked, but they didn't have to. Hell, they could have gone rogue if they wanted. Not even she could stand up to the Elements of Harmony. I have to wonder if Celestia realized this and made Twi a princess as an insurance policy to keep the Elements close to her. After what happened with Nightmare Moon, she would be very cognizant of not just any threat to her power, but any potential threat.

 

Whether Twilight grows into being a princess or not, you can't obscure the obvious: as Zoraxe points out, she had no choice in the matter. Does Celestia even care about what Twilight wants? She certainly didn't bother to ask her. Celestia will arrange an almost labyrinthine series of events to protect her long-term authority, while various monsters and misanthropes run wild on Equestria and the Mane 6 are left to clean up the mess.

Edited July 25, 2013 by TailsIsNotAlone

[Scootalove 10,685]

I don't see Celestia as a manipulator of free will but, I think that she just uses free will to her advantage. Usually, we didn't expect Twilight to become a princess until we saw her in the Season 3 finale. So, we could think of a lot of ways on how she does manipulate.

[Zygen 6,065]

What choice did Twilight have? To either fix the problem or just leave her friends all mixed up and unhappy? Its the spell that Celestia sent to Twilight that caused the mess, she knew Twilight would try to use it, thus Celestia caused all the problems Twilight had to fix. And, Celestia knew what would happen if Twilight fixed the problem. Twilight didd't know, all Twilight wanted to do was fix the problem.

 

Face it, Twilight was used. It sounds like something Discord would do. Actually, with all the "destinies" mixed up, Celestia in effect 'discorded' the Mane6 in order to get what she wants.

Eh, i think of it more like Celestia trusted Twilight with an unpredictable spell, she probably didn't even know its effects. I think she just trusted Twilight to not screw things up to much with it, and it just so happened that the spell mixed up the destinies, technically her fixing their destinies wasn't part of the spell, she did that on her own, she just had a brain spark and understood what was missing from the spell after pondering it I assume a good bit of the day.

 

Now the spell itself is debatable what it did, who knows, i've seen many theories, and frankly i'm not sure what it did for sure, you could go with the obvious, it turned her into an Alicorn, but who knows, i've seen many other explanations. I suppose it depends on your interpretation.

 

I dunno why Celestia would have some sinister reason to turn Twilight into an Alicorn. nor what that would have to do that would be considered bad really in their world atleast.

 

I think in S4 it will be explained better what the spell did possibly, or atleast I hope.

 

For now alot of mystery surrounds it.

 

Its interesting to ponder and theorize about though, and hear other theorizes on it.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Zygen

[Dark Horn 430]

@@Zoraxe,

 

 

What choice did Twilight have? To either fix the problem or just leave her friends all mixed up and unhappy? Its the spell that Celestia sent to Twilight that caused the mess, she knew Twilight would try to use it, thus Celestia caused all the problems Twilight had to fix. And, Celestia knew what would happen if Twilight fixed the problem. Twilight didd't know, all Twilight wanted to do was fix the problem.

 

Face it, Twilight was used. It sounds like something Discord would do. Actually, with all the "destinies" mixed up, Celestia in effect 'discorded' the Mane6 in order to get what she wants.

          

 

Woah, woah, woah. Saying that Celestia 'discorded' them is more than a bit extreme.

 

I mean, look at it this way. Celestia wasn't the brightest in the world and didn't tell Twilight what the spell did (unless she didn't know herself), but she didn't tell Twilight to cast it.

 

Besides, Twilight's taken on Chrysalis (see comics) by herself, helped defeat King Sombra, almost showed down Trixie in a magic duel, almost, and Celestia knew she could handle a little destiny-changing spell. No big deal, right?

 

Think of it as a test, albeit a reckless one, to see if Twilight was ready or not to become a princess.

[They call me Loyalty 1,941]

Unless there is some kind of twisted plot hidden behind Celestia since the begining, which I don't think so, due to the ruler is somehow related with almost every lesson the mane six have learned thus far. But maybe it could be true, and would be awesome indeed, although this is unlikely to happen.

I think Twilight transformation was just an idea developed by Hasbro, just for the sake of their monetary situation.  But the writers didn't get time to make it believable in the plot. A real shame.
    

Apologies for my english.

Edited July 25, 2013 by They call me Loyalty

[Zoraxe 546]

Woah, woah, woah. Saying that Celestia 'discorded' them is more than a bit extreme.

 

I don't think so, did you see how unhappy they were? They were totally discorded by Celestia. Not only that, Twilight blamed herself for what Celestia caused.

 

Eh, i think of it more like Celestia trusted Twilight with an unpredictable spell, she probably didn't even know its effects. I think she just trusted Twilight to not screw things up to much with it, and it just so happened that the spell mixed up the destinies, technically her fixing their destinies wasn't part of the spell, she did that on her own, she just had a brain spark and understood what was missing from the spell after pondering it I assume a good bit of the day.

 

Obviously she expected something, after Sombra was defeated we see Celestia with that book. The book is not something she just decided to give to Twlight and it just so happened to cause the events of 'Magical Mystery Cure' by accident. It was all planned and done purposefully.

 

I dunno why Celestia would have some sinister reason to turn Twilight into an Alicorn. nor what that would have to do that would be considered bad really in their world at least.

 

What? I'm saying that how Celestia turned Twilight into an Alicorn is whats sinister. The ends do not justify the means.

 

Whether Twilight grows into being a princess or not, you can't obscure the obvious: as Zoraxe points out, she had no choice in the matter. Does Celestia even care about what Twilight wants? She certainly didn't bother to ask her. Celestia will arrange an almost labyrinthine series of events to protect her long-term authority, while various monsters and misanthropes run wild on Equestria and the Mane 6 are left to clean up the mess.

 

It seems so, even back in the story. The reformation of Discord, why did Celestia do that? While she probably does have a noble reason for wanting Discord reformed, notice she took the opportunity to tell Twilight to keep the Elements of harmony with her. Twilight having the elements in her house is part of what caused the spell in 'Magical Mystery Cure' to cause all the problems.

 

Celestia coming off as controlling and a liar can have two reasons behind it. Either the writers suck at writing Celestia. Or its intentional.

 

Imagine if this stuff is relevant in season 4? Like if someone like Discord used this as a means of driving a wedge between Twilight and Celestia? Or that Celestia being like that is what caused Luna to become Nightmare Moon? What if Celestia apologizes? That would be cool.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Zoraxe

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

I wish she'd apologized to Twilight for doubting her in A Canterlot Wedding. That alone would leave me with a better opinion of her.

[Dark Horn 430]

@@Zoraxe,

 

Yes, they were unhappy. But it was necessary for Twilight to become a princess so she could better combat evil. Also, it would be cruel to Twilight to leave her as a mere unicorn, her full potential untapped.

 

Even if it weren't, as an alicorn, Twilight can now challenge Celestia's authority. Would an evil manipulator really create a threat to her own power?

[SCS 7,452]

Celestia is neither a manipulator, nor does she steal free will. Such dark things are far removed from her loving nature that she chose, through her own free will, to grow into.

 

She never forced Twilight Sparkle to do anything. Celestia guided her in a certain direction, but allowed Twilight to choose what steps to take, and what direction to take them in. Twilight could have chosen not to accept true friendship into her heart. She could have chosen not to wield an element of harmony to channel her own inner power along with her friends' to defeat those who chose the darkness. And, when she became a Princess, Celestia did not at all play a role in the transformation process. The magic that transformed her into an alicorn came from within her own spirit.

[Zoraxe 546]

I wish she'd apologized to Twilight for doubting her in A Canterlot Wedding. That alone would leave me with a better opinion of her.

 

Eh? That one doesn't really bother me, sorry.

 

Yes, they were unhappy. But it was necessary for Twilight to become a princess so she could better combat evil. Also, it would be cruel to Twilight to leave her as a mere unicorn, her full potential untapped.

 

That's the writers fault. Unless they wanted Celestia to come off as a puppet master, they did a crap job of writing the finale of Season 3. You making excuses of why certain despicable actions are necessary doesn't really change that.

 

Even if it weren't, as an alicorn, Twilight can now challenge Celestia's authority. Would an evil manipulator really create a threat to her own power?

 

Because Celestia isn't evil, or at least, isn't supposed to be. You see, us the fans are putting so much more thought into this than the writers ever did. The writers put minimal effort into story of the finale of season 3/culmination of Twilight's friendship lessons.

 

Unless Celestia being a manipulative liar is intentional.

 

Celestia is neither a manipulator, nor does she steal free will. Such dark things are far removed from her loving nature that she chose, through her own free will, to grow into.

 

She never forced Twilight Sparkle to do anything. Celestia guided her in a certain direction, but allowed Twilight to choose what steps to take, and what direction to take them in.

 

And, when she became a Princess, Celestia did not at all play a role in the transformation process. The magic that transformed her into an alicorn came from within her own spirit.

 

Are you kidding me? Did you even read this thread or did you just read the first post?

Edited July 27, 2013 by Zoraxe

[Dark Horn 430]

@@Zoraxe,

 

You are correct. For a show that was meant for little girls, we are putting an almost absurd amount of thought into it.

 

Nevertheless, maybe it was just me, but it felt to me as if Celestia wasn't manipulating; she was being helpful. As I said, maybe it's just me.

[Feather Gem 965]

No. 

I believe that if Twilight objected to any of the tasks she were given, Celestia would never have forced her to do them.  She gave them to Twilight so that she could become something more, so she could live up to her full potential.  She knew she was special, but never would have forced her to be anything.  She believes Twilight can handle being a princess, and so she made her one without asking.  Because she knew that Twilight wouldn't object to it, having known Twilight for years.

She is a wise and kind ruler.  She only wants the best for Equestria and her ponies.

And I like Luna as much as I like Celestia.  I love them both.