science Your thoughts on transhumanism. Good or evil?

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

I am skeptical and neutral on this matter. I want to keep the debate to these bullet points.

 

• Is the brain really what we think it is? 
• Do you think smart AI is hype? Well at least in the time frame futurists project? 
• Ethics 
• Do you think mind uploading cheapens life? 

We can discuss more of course. Just my first debate entry and this topic was on my mind the past couple of days. I also want people knowing that I'm agnostic, I hold no theistic or atheistic bias in this debate. 

[Guest]

The main problem I have with this is that if the AI is gonna be smarter than us, humans, why would it listen to you anymore, it would disobey the orders of it's creator.

 

Don't know what you mean by the first question.

Smart AI is hype, considering we use it properly.

Life is not something that has a cost to it, it just is and that's it.D't know how uploading minds could cheapen "life" itself.

[Techno Universal 2,575]

It actually may be the solution to the crime and grief that goes on here on earth. But instead of creating humanoid-robots we can bring the ponies from MLP to life! (In super-advanced robot form of corse!)

[KatonRyu 1,033]

Is the brain really what we think it is?

I'm not sure what else we think it is then an incredibly complex cluster of neurons. I think it's exactly that, anyway, but ultimately nothing technology couldn't conceivably improve upon.

 

Is smart AI hype?

Smart AI is almost a necessity for a project like this, and I think it can be built in such a way that we maintain control of it.

 

Ethics

I have no problem with any kind of augmentation of the human genome and body. I really don't mind science attempting to create a superhuman being because I feel like we can control our own evolution that way.

 

Does mind uploading cheapen life?

Depends. I don't know enough about how the mind works to determine whether an uploaded mind is the same person as the 'original', or if the 'original' would be lost in such a process. Is there consciousness during this transfer procedure? Does the consciousness truly go from the brain into the machine, or is it duplicated? I think it's more akin to creating new, but similar life than it is to extending or cheapening one's own, unless there is only ever one consciousness which gets transferred. In that case, I still don't think it cheapens life because the caveat applies: die, and your own consciousness and being is still gone.

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

Is the brain really what we think it is?

I'm not sure what else we think it is then an incredibly complex cluster of neurons. I think it's exactly that, anyway, but ultimately nothing technology couldn't conceivably improve upon.

 

Is smart AI hype?

Smart AI is almost a necessity for a project like this, and I think it can be built in such a way that we maintain control of it.

 

Ethics

I have no problem with any kind of augmentation of the human genome and body. I really don't mind science attempting to create a superhuman being because I feel like we can control our own evolution that way.

 

Does mind uploading cheapen life?

Depends. I don't know enough about how the mind works to determine whether an uploaded mind is the same person as the 'original', or if the 'original' would be lost in such a process. Is there consciousness during this transfer procedure? Does the consciousness truly go from the brain into the machine, or is it duplicated? I think it's more akin to creating new, but similar life than it is to extending or cheapening one's own, unless there is only ever one consciousness which gets transferred. In that case, I still don't think it cheapens life because the caveat applies: die, and your own consciousness and being is still gone.

Well I am mistrusting of humanity from what we have done with nuclear energy and people losing their privacy day by day. It isn't the technology that is evil, it is the people using the technology. 

[The Crimson Cross 7,532]

My 2 cents:

I'm of the firm belief that a computer cannot make appropriate emotion-based responses, regardless if it's an uploaded mind.Because the human brain is a mixture of Hormones combined with electrical responses and sensory information. Advantage being that we can "feel" as well as "perceive" which most fictional robots can only percieve and judge on facts only.

Machines, alas cannot produce emotion. Only display emotion. So they are inferior and not as valuable as human life.

 

Computers will never be more advanced than us, because lets be honest here, machine will always be slave to man. One of Our greatest fears perhaps is machines gaining awareness and striking back. But honestly I'm of the idea that they lack the emotions to actually go through with that task.

HOWEVER... augmenting the human mind is another story altogether.

We are damn screwed if we venture into that territory,

No thanks.

I have seen enough Sci-Fi to see where that's going.

Edited October 10, 2016 by The Crimson Cross

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

Is the brain really what we think it is?

I'm not sure what else we think it is then an incredibly complex cluster of neurons. I think it's exactly that, anyway, but ultimately nothing technology couldn't conceivably improve upon.

 

Is smart AI hype?

Smart AI is almost a necessity for a project like this, and I think it can be built in such a way that we maintain control of it.

 

Ethics

I have no problem with any kind of augmentation of the human genome and body. I really don't mind science attempting to create a superhuman being because I feel like we can control our own evolution that way.

 

Does mind uploading cheapen life?

Depends. I don't know enough about how the mind works to determine whether an uploaded mind is the same person as the 'original', or if the 'original' would be lost in such a process. Is there consciousness during this transfer procedure? Does the consciousness truly go from the brain into the machine, or is it duplicated? I think it's more akin to creating new, but similar life than it is to extending or cheapening one's own, unless there is only ever one consciousness which gets transferred. In that case, I still don't think it cheapens life because the caveat applies: die, and your own consciousness and being is still gone.

I see where transhumanists come from when they approach the question of free will and mind. I don't control what goes on in my body... So how am I to ignorantly assume I have free will? 

[Kel_Grym 1,917]

I'm going to be unpopular here.

 

It's pure corruption and will lead to your enslavement.

 

Stop assuming that there isn't an overwhelming malevolent intent in this world and stop rationalizing.

 

There is a reason for everything and a rational explanation for everything

 

Qudosh means holy or separate in Hebrew.

 

What's good to be Holy? What's good to be seperate?

 

Because somethings aren't suppose to go

together. It leads to death by nature.

 

The image of...

 

They want to change the image of...

 

Google predictive programming Cern RFID contrails mark of the beast book of Enoch alien hybrids

 

Everything here is plural. Truth is singular. The opposite of truth is always plural.

 

I invaded an echo chamber.

 

That's my outlook at least.

 

Everybody has thier own opinion.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Kel_Grym

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

I'm going to be unpopular here.

 

It's pure corruption and will lead to your enslavement.

 

Stop assuming that there isn't an overwhelming malevolent intent in this world and stop rationalizing.

 

There is a reason for everything and a rational explanation for everything

 

Qudosh means holy or separate in Hebrew.

 

What's good to be Holy? What's good to be seperate?

 

Because somethings aren't suppose to go

together. It leads to death by nature.

 

The image of...

 

They want to change the image of...

 

Google predictive programming Cern RFID contrails mark of the beast book of Enoch alien hybrids

 

Everything here is plural. Truth is singular. The opposite of truth is always plural.

 

I invaded an echo chamber.

 

That's my outlook at least.

 

Everybody has thier own opinion.

I'm not gonna be rude here... You are allowed to think of it as evil... I have it as a questionable debate. But people have been saying the world has been ending since day 1. We are entering the age of Aquarius in the next 100 years, the piscean is on its way out the door. 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I'll answer the prompts that are actual questions.

 

Do you think smart AI is hype? Well at least in the time frame futurists project? 

 

I do. I'm excited for strong A.I. more for philosophical, social, and spiritual reasons than technological ones. It would be new sentience. Humanity has never had a "neighbor." We're all human and no matter the cultural gaps, we all have subtle epistemological expectations we can rely on with one another. An artificial intelligence that's fully self-aware and a learning mind will have a new and truly singular perspective on the world and life. Imagine what we can learn by teaching and interacting with what is essentially, a new soul. 

 

Do you think mind uploading cheapens life?

 

This one I have a little hesitation with. Mostly it comes down to the form of uploading. Destructive uploading brings up the issue of suicide. The counter I have for that is, you're not choosing to end your life because you can't take the pain of living, you're choosing to continue life as another state of being. Of course then I fire back that such basically IS tantamount to suicide if there is an afterlife.

 

Soooooo color me a little more cautious on the specifics of brain uploading. Open but, hesitant.

 

In general, I'm very much for transhumanism and always have been. Mostly because I don't think it will happen as early as many would hope and when it does it will be in a form not nearly as exciting as predicted though still all around beneficial. People have been predicting better futures since Plato's The Republic and while some have been vindicated, it's never the immediate world changer it was thought to be.

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

 

I'll answer the prompts that are actual questions.

 

Do you think smart AI is hype? Well at least in the time frame futurists project? 

 

I do. I'm excited for strong A.I. more for philosophical, social, and spiritual reasons than technological ones. It would be new sentience. Humanity has never had a "neighbor." We're all human and no matter the cultural gaps, we all have subtle epistemological expectations we can rely on with one another. An artificial intelligence that's fully self-aware and a learning mind will have a new and truly singular perspective on the world and life. Imagine what we can learn by teaching and interacting with what is essentially, a new soul. 

 

Do you think mind uploading cheapens life?

 

This one I have a little hesitation with. Mostly it comes down to the form of uploading. Destructive uploading brings up the issue of suicide. The counter I have for that is, you're not choosing to end your life because you can't take the pain of living, you're choosing to continue life as another state of being. Of course then I fire back that such basically IS tantamount to suicide if there is an afterlife.

 

Soooooo color me a little more cautious on the specifics of brain uploading. Open but, hesitant.

 

In general, I'm very much for transhumanism and always have been. Mostly because I don't think it will happen as early as many would hope and when it does it will be in a form not nearly as exciting as predicted though still all around beneficial. People have been predicting better futures since Plato's The Republic and while some have been vindicated, it's never the immediate world changer it was thought to be.

 

Well the issue is, if mind uploading is something scientifically possible, then the free will debate will have ended. Because in order to upload a mind, you need an emulation of what a mind IS.. So an uploaded mind is limited to the medium its uploaded in, like our standard brains. 

 

I know there's more to transhumanism than mind uploading. But you get into the gray area if merging with technology is the right thing to do.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well the issue is, if mind uploading is something scientifically possible, then the free will debate will have ended. Because in order to upload a mind, you need an emulation of what a mind IS.. So an uploaded mind is limited to the medium its uploaded in, like our standard brains. 

 

I know there's more to transhumanism than mind uploading. But you get into the gray area if merging with technology is the right thing to do.

 

Oh yes I'm aware of this theory. For me I certainly wouldn't mind merging with technology or see an ethical question in doing so invasively as long as the brain is intact. Something like neurological supplementation or more body specific augments don't really do anything we haven't been doing for hundreds or thousands of years. I guess at that point it really calls into question if it's really "transhumanism" then since the human experience as defined by our brains isn't really undergoing a fundamental change.

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

Oh yes I'm aware of this theory. For me I certainly wouldn't mind merging with technology or see an ethical question in doing so invasively as long as the brain is intact. Something like neurological supplementation or more body specific augments don't really do anything we haven't been doing for hundreds or thousands of years. I guess at that point it really calls into question if it's really "transhumanism" then since the human experience as defined by our brains isn't really undergoing a fundamental change.

What worries me are the people who ADMINISTER the technologies, not the technology itself. I imagine in our lifetime, digital minds won't exist... I think removing the brain from the body an attaching it to an avatar sounds more feasible from 2016-2070. Only issue is we don't know how neurons create consciousness yet.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

What worries me are the people who ADMINISTER the technologies, not the technology itself.

 

Well of course, but that's been a problem or rather a concern of new technologies since time immemorial. I mean there was once a time when computers were in the hands of a select few but now we're all carrying around machines ridiculously more powerful than ones that took up whole rooms in our pockets. So I'm not as worried about distribution and administration at least in the long run.

 

 

 

I think removing the brain from the body an attaching it to an avatar sounds more feasible from 2016-2070. Only issue is we don't know how neurons create consciousness yet.

 

What I'm more worried about is this point, mankind's reach exceeding it's grasp . . . again. I'm an idealist and I have faith in humanity, but benevolent designs done for the right reasons by good people could and have still resulted in terrible things happening, that's the sad reality of it.

 

People might get excited about the possibilities of uploading and end up killing volunteers and users alike because they grasped the nature of a new technology but something they couldn't have foreseen still goes awry. While chance is just the nature of life, particularly in science and experimentation, this is the nature of consciousness itself we're talking about. Scientists and people in general must be extemely cautious when approaching brain uploading.

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

Well of course, but that's been a problem or rather a concern of new technologies since time immemorial. I mean there was once a time when computers were in the hands of a select few but now we're all carrying around machines ridiculously more powerful than ones that took up whole rooms in our pockets. So I'm not as worried about distribution and administration at least in the long run.

 

 

 

 

What I'm more worried about is this point, mankind's reach exceeding it's grasp . . . again. I'm an idealist and I have faith in humanity, but benevolent designs done for the right reasons by good people could and have still resulted in terrible things happening, that's the sad reality of it.

 

People might get excited about the possibilities of uploading and end up killing volunteers and users alike because they grasped the nature of a new technology but something they couldn't have foreseen still goes awry. While chance is just the nature of life, particularly in science and experimentation, this is the nature of consciousness itself we're talking about. Scientists and people in general must be extemely cautious when approaching brain uploading.

In your opinion though, if you were to pick a realistic year when mind uploading is real, what sounds real?

[Steel Accord 6,660]

In your opinion though, if you were to pick a realistic year when mind uploading is real, what sounds real?

 

Oh I couldn't even fathom. I'm just an casual researcher and ametur theorist, I'm by no means a futurist.

[Kel_Grym 1,917]

I'm allowed to think. Perfect.

 

Transhumanism? It naturally ends with the opposite being true.

 

There is a reason for it all (it's the true motive of the movement) but then there is the rationalization. (The lie)

 

Intuitively it makes sense on the primal level cause you just don't want anything touching your genome or nervous system, especially in this age of magic and super science. (Reference)

 

Now any traditionalist Hindu will tell you that we are in the age of Kali Yuga and we're gonna be in it a while. The age of Kali Yuga is an age of decay

 

New Age is a remix of a lot of old age stuff

 

I don't believe we're in any of those ages. I think we're smack dab near the end of revelations and we got all the signs of the times going on.

 

But that's just my opinion.

 

Also Russia is prepping thier citizens for nuclear warfare and the US dropped two fake nukes in nevada for practice.

[weesh 690]

Ethics

I have no problem with any kind of augmentation of the human genome and body. I really don't mind science attempting to create a superhuman being because I feel like we can control our own evolution that way.

 

I think the exact same modification to a body can be both for good and bad purposes.

For instance, If your goal is to advance the science to the point that good and effective mods can be applied to all people who need them at an affordable cost, than your motives are excellent.  But if you are creating mods that can only benefit the billionaires of the world, and will further their wealth and power, then you are better off solving other problems.  obviously, real life will fall somewhere between these two extremes.  

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

Oh I couldn't even fathom. I'm just an casual researcher and ametur theorist, I'm by no means a futurist.

I think the main problem with transhumanism is the people who view humanity as something mechanical. If you're calling the brain a computer, you're calling a human a computer. 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I think the main problem with transhumanism is the people who view humanity as something mechanical. If you're calling the brain a computer, you're calling a human a computer. 

 

You're right in one sense, that we have to keep in mind that humanity is more than homo sapien. At the same time, there is a practical realization that, yes, we are composed of joints, pumps, valves, "circuits," and systems. The human brain has been called "the most advanced computer in existence" and that description is correct even though the invention of the computer machine came long after the evolution of the human brain.

 

I'm more on your side than in disagreement, some transhumanists don't see or believe in the intrinsic value of human life which isn't to say they're bad people just that humanity is nothing special and transhumanism will make us special by making us something "more" than human. Or more accurately, more than a random by-product of biological evolution that just drew the lucky straw of self-awareness. I'm not in that camp, I see transhumanism as something of a misnomer. Not to leave the human condition behind, but to actually enhance it. Experience, thoughts, creativity, intelligence, the things that make us truly separate from base animals. Imagine if we could spread our ideas and our identities to the ends of the universe itself, to truly colonize all of existence.

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

You're right in one sense, that we have to keep in mind that humanity is more than homo sapien. At the same time, there is a practical realization that, yes, we are composed of joints, pumps, valves, "circuits," and systems. The human brain has been called "the most advanced computer in existence" and that description is correct even though the invention of the computer machine came long after the evolution of the human brain.

 

I'm more on your side than in disagreement, some transhumanists don't see or believe in the intrinsic value of human life which isn't to say they're bad people just that humanity is nothing special and transhumanism will make us special by making us something "more" than human. Or more accurately, more than a random by-product of biological evolution that just drew the lucky straw of self-awareness. I'm not in that camp, I see transhumanism as something of a misnomer. Not to leave the human condition behind, but to actually enhance it. Experience, thoughts, creativity, intelligence, the things that make us truly separate from base animals. Imagine if we could spread our ideas and our identities to the ends of the universe itself, to truly colonize all of existence.

I'm not denying that we "work" as in we are a process. But no computer humanity can ever create, will match human experience. You can make a thinking machine all you want... But you are left with something lifeless. I know first hand experience wise... Consciousness is more  than the brain... However, I know there is an intangible human spark/image.soul, call it whatever, that works with the biophysical in ways science fails to understand. I think you can invent anything. No matter how much processing power and ram we add to computers... Its not eve how a human brain works Even neuroscientists screw themselves when they call the brain a digital computer because 'neurons are either on/off." that's fallacy of composition. 

 

So, yeah to a degree we  are machines I believe we were created. But humans will never find out what makes us operate. 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

@@SunsetBaconDrive,

 

So you're saying that true, self-aware, Artificial Intelligence is completely impossible? 

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

@@SunsetBaconDrive,

 

So you're saying that true, self-aware, Artificial Intelligence is completely impossible? 

Yes.. Because self awareness is different in all species.. and since I'm not a dog or any other animal... I can wave my PhD and explain a dog's mind all I want, at the end of the day I'm not a dog and explaining its life like some meaningless toy is absurd. AI is merely going to faster and faster databases with no capacity for awareness, reflection or life in it. 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

@@SunsetBaconDrive,

 

There's a fundamental difference between a dog and an A.I. but I'm afraid we must agree to disagree on this one. Mostly on the grounds that I fully admit I lack the proper knowledge to argue for my side on the case of self-aware A.I. being possible.

[SunsetBaconDrive 169]

@@SunsetBaconDrive,

 

There's a fundamental difference between a dog and an A.I. but I'm afraid we must agree to disagree on this one. Mostly on the grounds that I fully admit I lack the proper knowledge to argue for my side on the case of self-aware A.I. being possible.

Well I'm open to being wrong. But at this point in time, AI is hype. And if consciousness is just an undiscovered brain function we will not know for sure. I agree with transhumanism in respect that humans are a creation, and we operate as we are created. But merging with technology is a bad idea at our current state. Imagine some people hacking your brain, heart or lungs. Imagine being in a virtual hell for eternity? Things like that.