How did you feel with Derpy's role?

[Senko 459]

Those orbs were hurled quickly so I can see Twilight who is more intellectual than physical not reacting fast enough to dodge one without help especially given what's been going on around her.

That said while I do love the idea of Derpy deliberately taking the hit and agree she is moving very quickly in those shots and was fast enough to be winning gold in flying contests as a filly till her eyesight deteroriated. Look at the lines on the ground she is further away than the top storm guard but has pulled level with him in the time it takes him to move to the line. However we have in secrets and pies seen Dash is able to move at quicksilver speeds where other ponies are literally standing still to her perception when she really starts moving and that's before she's generating a rainbow trail.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Senko

[Quinch 1,120]

27 minutes ago, Senko said:

Those orbs were hurled quickly so I can see Twilight who is more intellectual than physical not reacting fast enough to dodge one without help especially given what's been going on around her. 

Also, the reason Twilight was a standing target is because she was too busy levitating stoned Luna. Presumably she was lowering her carefully while the incoming shot was underway.

[JCKane 345]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 5:55 AM, CypherHoof said:

I do think Derpy was the best choice - while it wouldn't have been a massive change to rewrite it for GlimGlam to take the hit, She would also have had other options; Derpy isn't a super powerful magic user, isn't a lot of things - but she can be seen racing past the goons to throw herself in front of Twi, and deserves the chance to be the heroine of the moment, instead of the butt of jokes.

 

 

While I get that, I do, but it still causes a big issue with why Starlight was there yet didn't do anything.  It would of worked to help write her out.  And while yeah she DOES have other options, it's a split second type decision and she could of just 'acted'.  Nonetheless, I still wish they had a way to explain why Starlight was written out.  Granted, I think they should of just not shown her at the festival at all, or if done so, have her cameo at the end of the movie (as in during the concert back on track) cuz then we could just assume Starlight was just simply away during the attack and didn't get back until after it was over.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

2 hours ago, JCKane said:

While I get that, I do, but it still causes a big issue with why Starlight was there yet didn't do anything. 

Not saying I disagree.

I am glad they didn't take this away from Derpy; that doesn't mean I am glad they added her to the "namecheck pony paradie" at the start of the movie.

I note from (for example) the Pharynx episode that she still isn't much good in a fight, though.

2 hours ago, JCKane said:

It would of worked to help write her out.  And while yeah she DOES have other options, it's a split second type decision and she could of just 'acted'.  Nonetheless, I still wish they had a way to explain why Starlight was written out.  Granted, I think they should of just not shown her at the festival at all, or if done so, have her cameo at the end of the movie (as in during the concert back on track) cuz then we could just assume Starlight was just simply away during the attack and didn't get back until after it was over.

Indeed so (although Tempest can do better fireworks than Trixie )

[imawesome 449]

Derpy is a hero. What else is there to be said? *military music plays* We should commemorate her for her brave duties,  praise her for her fast thinking. Without her, the universe would have fallen, and so, we shall reward her... with a muffin. 

Or just write a forum about it. Whatever works. 

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

On 12/25/2018 at 5:35 AM, Widdershins said:

Given that, up until that interruption, Dash was whining about wanting to do her event & show off (which came to a head much later with her showing off for the pirates & not thinking ahead of its consequences apart from inspiration) so her impatience wouldn't lead her to being aware of where Twilight is. Especially considering her awareness of others tends to be what she's most frequently tested on.

 I hold firm on my point of RD being capable, but not having enough time to do so.

Her awareness of others might be an issue, but only in certain circumstances. What happened on the pirate ship isn't a fair comparison. There was no clear and present danger. A very different scenario to what was happening in Canterlot. The Wonderbolts are an elite special branch of flyers who are members of the EUP guard; their job is to protect the Princesses and their nation, and she's the element of loyalty. What do you think she was doing when stormtroopers started leaping out of the sky and causing mayhem?

While on the subject though, the absence of the guards in this film is one of the biggest problems with it. The movie seems to completely forget that the Ponies have a standing army, and the lack of any semblance of basic military common sense is one of my biggest pet peeves about this film. That an invasion fleet of ships could roll right into the capital city and land on the doorstep of the palace uncontested (and undetected) is either shoddy writing, or the result of severe budget constraints. Either way, it's an insult to the defensive capabilities of Equestria we've been shown time and time again. In fact, the battles in this film seem to be the weakest we've ever seen. At the very least, Grubber should've come out of that ship to see a wall of infantry between himself and the Equestrian royalty. There's a threatening intruder, all four royals are in one place, yet there isn't a single guard visible in that entire scene. There's something very wrong with that when we know there's a castle full of them just a few hundred yards away.

As for Dash, it's anyone's guess what she was doing when everything got out of control. We never actually see how Twi's friends react to the attack. All we know is they're present before the attack begins, and gone the next time we see Twilight. It's rather shocking that this happens because I can't believe it's within the character for any of the five to abandon Twilight like that. At worst, they're probably huddled nearby amidst the recycled animation of hundreds of Ponies running around aimlessly, trying to figure out how they can help. But Dash is a member of the airforce. She would immediately take to the air to where she has the greatest advantage. At best, I would have to guess that with how quickly things went crazy, she was only able to make sense of the chaos just before she saw a missile heading towards Twilight, and that's assuming she didn't help any other pony off camera during that time.

Aaaaand, Dash's role in saving Twilight is pretty much established in a followup shot if the telltale flash of color isn't enough of an indicator. After Tempest realizes she's been bamboozled, we see AJ calling to Twilight. AJ is standing with Pinkie, Fluttershy, Rarity, and Spike. Twilight proceeds to run and, oh... look who else is right there, putting herself directly between Twilight and an attacking stormtrooper.

 

 

On 1/1/2018 at 7:43 PM, Widdershins said:

What assault leader wouldn't make sure the biggest brawler of the group isn't preoccupied some yards away from where the main targets are? Even considering her personality, do you really think Dash is the sort to lag behind to protect rather than lead by charging through to the front lines to do the most damage and thereby prevent damage to her friends that way? Besides... who would care about where Derpy is? She's just some faceless villager...

I suspect she was doing it from the beginning. We just don't see it happen, unfortunately. This scene (and the battle to liberate Canterlot) could have been so much more than it was. Even though most films based on cartoons tend to go the opposite way, and even kick up the intensity a few notches, it's disappointing to see a film based on a cartoon that has broken so much ground with genre standards and boldly challenged the minds and hearts of its target audience time and time again, be so conservative. It really seemed like a step back towards the roots of G1.

Also, Rainbow Dash knows Derpy. She's known her since foal hood. Derpy used to dominate in the young fliers competition and was clearly on her way to becoming a Wonderbolt before her eyesight started to degrade. She was also right at the front of the charge when the Pegusi attempted their assault on Tirek. Derpy and Dash have also worked together and while Derpy may have gotten on her nerves a number of times, that's far from meaning Dash is indifferent to her. Suggesting that she wouldn't care if something happened to Derpy? That's just cold. But both personally and tactically, saving Twilight made more sense.

Edited January 2, 2019 by BornAgainBrony

[Senko 459]

There's also the fact that during the changeling invasion, a species whos entire entire plan relied on being undetected till its too late the Equestrians know about a threat and were able to place guards every few feat. So I agree they should have known something was coming well before the air ships arrived.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

22 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

While on the subject though, the absence of the guards in this film is one of the biggest problems with it. The movie seems to completely forget that the Ponies have a standing army, and the lack of any semblance of basic military common sense is one of my biggest pet peeves about this film

I am not sure that is true though. The royal guard could well be entirely ceremonial, or be more like a police force than an army. They are certainly useless at stopping princesses being kindnapped and so forth.

Flash Magnus seemed to be from a military though (and of course flight groups like the wonderbolts tend to be the elite elements of their country's airforce), plus then there are the mighty helm...

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

5 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I am not sure that is true though. The royal guard could well be entirely ceremonial, or be more like a police force than an army. They are certainly useless at stopping princesses being kindnapped and so forth.

Definitely not ceremonial. (try to pay attention)

 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

1 hour ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Definitely not ceremonial. (try to pay attention)

Which is fine for the history of the wonderbolts (and of course, the historic EUP guard) but that was a thousand years before the current era; none of that necessarily holds true for the current royal guard, and of course given the EUP were formed after the banishment of Luna, its not like they had anyone to fight (or would have been much more than target practice for Nightmare Moon, really - I mean, look at what happened during the pilot episode)

We also know Flash Magnus was a cadet in the Royal Legion - which must have been long before NMM, and as we know that during the founding of Equestria the pegasi were organized along military lines, it would make sense this was the same body (given Starswirl was already an elder/mentor figure by that time)

Compare with (for example) the various Yeoman Guards of London - originally fighting forces, they are now a ceremonial force, drawn from retired military officers, and may in some cases live outside of London and only go there for scheduled events.

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

14 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Which is fine for the history of the wonderbolts (and of course, the historic EUP guard) but that was a thousand years before the current era; none of that necessarily holds true for the current royal guard, and of course given the EUP were formed after the banishment of Luna, its not like they had anyone to fight (or would have been much more than target practice for Nightmare Moon, really - I mean, look at what happened during the pilot episode)

We also know Flash Magnus was a cadet in the Royal Legion - which must have been long before NMM, and as we know that during the founding of Equestria the pegasi were organized along military lines, it would make sense this was the same body (given Starswirl was already an elder/mentor figure by that time)

Compare with (for example) the various Yeoman Guards of London - originally fighting forces, they are now a ceremonial force, drawn from retired military officers, and may in some cases live outside of London and only go there for scheduled events.

They've always had a presence in the palace though and we've seen them do their thing on more than one occasion. 

Spoiler

And Celestia had a fighting force in the alternate timeline to fight Sombra. Perhaps by extension Luna's forces in the same episode.

It would be hard to say there has been no need for defense unless Luna's return just had every sort of badness just crawling out of the woodwork after a thousand year slumber. And again, Tirek. The wonderbolts were leading that attack. Strange for just a ceremonial team that does circus shows if they're not trained for combat.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

2 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

It would be hard to say there has been no need for defense unless Luna's return just had every sort of badness just crawling out of the woodwork after a thousand year slumber. And again, Tirek. The wonderbolts were leading that attack. Strange for just a ceremonial team that does circus shows if they're not trained for combat.

Not quite what I mean though; by analogy, the UK has a quite competent and modern fighting force (if you ignore the Gurkhas, and it is NEVER a good idea to ignore the Gurkhas) but the London yeomen have become a retirement and ceremonial destination for officers, not really a force you could use in battle.

I would say that, if equestria has a standing military force, the royal guard isn't it. Clearly being a member of a military force isn't a requirement for the wonderbolts either (given Dashie isn't) so possibly all able-bodied pegasi are considered part of a militia?

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

53 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Not quite what I mean though; by analogy, the UK has a quite competent and modern fighting force (if you ignore the Gurkhas, and it is NEVER a good idea to ignore the Gurkhas) but the London yeomen have become a retirement and ceremonial destination for officers, not really a force you could use in battle.

I would say that, if equestria has a standing military force, the royal guard isn't it. Clearly being a member of a military force isn't a requirement for the wonderbolts either (given Dashie isn't) so possibly all able-bodied pegasi are considered part of a militia?

It's probably worth pointing out that the Wonderbolts are analogous to a couple different crack teams of demonstrators. The name is derived from the Thunderbirds, and the blue/yellow flight suits are a nod to the Blue Angels. Those flight teams are comprised of active-duty navy/marines and air-force respectively. So there's at least a parallel to consider. Since Dash also has a normal job though as a cloud wrangler, it could be more akin to the National Guard or Army Reserve. The Guard only trains one weekend per month plus an additional 2-week period per year, and (traditionally) is only called into action in emergencies, making it ideal for those who want to serve without sacrificing their civilian lives. So there's a good chance that Dash has had some formal training, which could also have something to with why she is seen dreaming about fighting against changelings - her technique is pretty darned impressive. And finally, the attitude of the Wonderbolts as seen in "Newbie Dash," the banter and ribbing, the dogmatic adherence to procedure/protocol/discipline, and the subtle/not-so-subtle 'Top Gun' influences, also strongly suggests a military organization.

Also, depending on how you feel about the comics, (as far as I know, Hasbro considers them CANON except when something in the show directly conflicts), the royal guards do indeed fight on occasion.

Also, while technically this would predate when she joined the Wonderbolts (unless she joined earlier because of happenstance) ..

Spoiler

Dash was commander of the air cavalry in the alternate timeline

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by BornAgainBrony

[CypherHoof 26,483]

2 minutes ago, BornAgainBrony said:

It's probably worth pointing out that the Wonderbolts are analogous to a couple different crack teams of demonstrators. The name is derived from the Thunderbirds, and the blue/yellow flight suits are a nod to the Blue Angels. Those flight teams are comprised of active-duty navy/marines and air-force respectively. So there's at least a parallel to consider

Yup. Most display teams are the elite of some branch or other of a military force. That makes sense though - the best display craft are inherently unstable, hence highly maneuverable; in our world, that is a characteristic of combat fighters, and the training required to operate them is that of a combat pilot.

In equestria though, each pegasus flies on their own, using their own pegasus-specific brand of magic; there are no specifically designed and hard to maintain aircraft involved, and while wonderbolt academy training DOES seem to focus on the sorts of spinout recovery, maneuverablity and precision flying exercises that come in handy in combat, the tasks assigned seem more suited to civilian pegasus tasks - locating and retrieving objects, cloud busting and so forth - and there is no mention of combat at all (despite the military-style discipline) so may be closer to things like "advanced driving" courses professional drivers can take at skidpan sites.

12 minutes ago, BornAgainBrony said:

The Guard only trains one weekend per month plus an additional 2-week period per year, and the Guard (traditionally) is only called into action in emergencies, making it ideal for those who want to serve without sacrificing their civilian lives.

It is odd we never see Dashie doing any of that though in four seasons of Pony - if that were a feature of pegasus life, you would expect to see Dashie at least mention it (and if its mandatory, see Fluttershy trying to avoid it)

14 minutes ago, BornAgainBrony said:

So there's a good chance that Dash has had some formal training, which could also have something to with why she is seen dreaming about fighting against changelings - her technique is pretty darned impressive

I think everypony has awesome ninja-level combat skills though... while dreaming

[Senko 459]

There's also a lot of off camera training we don't see. We do know that Dash who has helped save Equestria multiple times, is the only pony able to pull off a Sonic Rainboom and has held some degree of military rank in two alternate timelines still had to go the academy, become a reservist and then a full fledged wonderbolt where she admits she's still improving.

Even in the show we see the royal guard fighting on a few occasions its just they suffer the same problem the princesses do and are taken out to show how big and bad the big bad is for the new hero to save. As I've mentioned elsewhere Celestia protected Equestria for a thousand years (unless as mentioned above all these attacks suddenly happened after a millenium of peace) and then promptly got repeatedly negated/beaten so the mane 6 could save the day, then they and Celestia were soundly and rapidly beaten (offscreen in one case) so Starlight could save the day then again it happened to Starlight, the mane 6 and the princesses so the student 6 could save the day. We just don't see a situation where the Equestrian army actually fight outside of the changeling invasion (where they may still be fighting off camera but need to be unable to win so Cadence could save everyone) or the alternate Crystal War timeline.

Which is where we have a problem Sombra's return/invasion was apparently able to be held back by Equestrian armed forces yet the movies attack has them not even aware they're coming in airships. Its just too big a gap especially when as I said above the changeling sneak attack was known about. Even if you want them to lose that's one thing but in one invasion you have them every few feet guarding Canterlot, in another you have them holding back a magically enslaved zombie army and in the third invasion they're simply . . not there.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Senko

[Widdershins 9,959]

@Senko, @BornAgainBrony & @Cypherhoof

 Yeah, gonna put a pin in this side argument.

 Season Eight starts right up after the movie and frequently starts off with the sentiment of "We should have been ready for something like this." Implying, of course, that Equestria HAD the guards & the military force... but was too trusting. They were holding a party and these zepplins just waltzed in out of nowhere. How DO you be prepared for that when there is simply no precedence to imply a sneak attack? That's what it was after all. Storm King HAD no motive! He was smash-and-grab style tactics of a mercenary & Pirate Lord. He just wanted to wreck things, and wreck them harder. 

 The two parter starts right up with Twilight getting the idea for the school... and the Accrediting Board, and arguably the government, only hears "be prepared for incidents like what just happened." Equestria was sucker punched by an independant, rogue nation without warning. The question of why no military is irrelevant, there was no reason to show it. 

...its also not the subject of this thread, either.

 This is about Derpy's Role, not how her role could have been prevented.

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

3 hours ago, Widdershins said:

@Senko, @BornAgainBrony & @Cypherhoof

 The question of why no military is irrelevant, there was no reason to show it. 

...its also not the subject of this thread, either.

 This is about Derpy's Role, not how her role could have been prevented.

So, "they got their flanks kicked" was all that needed to be said about that entire scene? Maybe I'm just spoiled by what Hasbro did with theatrical release feature film adaptations of their cartoons in the 80s... and those films were indeed on their minds while MLPTM was being made, since HASCON was right on the anniversary of said movies. Taking time to focus on awesome and badassery (something traditionally reserved for shows targeted at boys) is one of the important ways in which MLP deviates from the norm. Just give the changeling battle a rewatch and then compare it to the storm king invasion. Without the comedic elements keeping things from reaching a terror crescendo, this scene is freaking intense, and makes no attempt to hide the fact that this is a hardcore fisticuffs battle... also with lots of lasers.

The point though, is that there is just a lot happening in the storm king invasion that just feels... off... when you compare it to ANY other time something like this has happened in Equestria. The nature of the EUP Guards and their affiliation with the Wonderbolts came into play due to questioning the integrity of Rainbow Dash and Derpy in dire situations. Dash is a Wonderbolt, Derpy has the heart of one (and is seen by many as being an honorary member ever since she found her way into that Wonderbolts figure set). They both know what it means to be a part of the EUP. Either of them would (and have) put themselves in harm's way to protect Equestria.

Edited January 4, 2019 by BornAgainBrony