S09:E01+E02 - The Beginning of the End

[Sovereign Leader Rarity 12,006]

37 minutes ago, Mirage said:

 

What was lacking is build up (tension) and drama (interaction).

If Grogar's return was at first implied (like NMM) and then he interacted with ponies while slowly wrenching his choke hold tighter and tighter (Tirek) then the villainry would have been more satisfying. Power doesn't mean much until it affects the protagonists personally.

 

I completely agree. Sufficient tension and suspense created by effective music, visuals, etc, is a more effective method way of making a villain feel menacing than just being told/shown that they gave tremendous power. They need to do something with that power that effects another character in a negative fashion before that really means anything to me.

[Mirage 24,747]

35 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

To me this episode WAS setting Grogar up. He didn't do anything directly in this episode because he's being built up for a later date. We hear his thought process, we're given a bit of backstory on what he is, we see a demonstration of his power. These are all things that will pay off later when he finally interacts with the main cast.

 

Also, maybe this is just me, but the destruction of Golden Oaks never really hit me that hard because it felt kinda forced. I dunno, the execution didn't do much for me.

Right - and that is as far as it can be taken - just a set up. So when viewers say 'he didn't seem intimidating' or 'he's not very scary' that is why. Just as I pointed out, Grogar's villainry is unsatisfied...that wasn't necessary a criticism, it's just a fact. Starlight didn't seem all that intimidating or scary either...then things got personal...

Twilight's friends were gone, her mentor totally defeated, betrayed by Discord, then her precious home, with all her books are destroyed...Tirek at that point took everything, not just most, but everything away from her. It was the last straw. It was a brilliant episode with an extremely well portrayed villain. YMMV.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

I have mixed feelings on Grogar. Baddie from g1- good. Seems the type to not put up with anyone’s sh***- good. Father of all monsters- good. Defeated originally by Gusty and not the Royal Sisters 1,000 years ago- good. But his design seems a lot more menacing in his g1 days. Now he just looks like a cranky grandpa goat who would yell at you for being on his lawn.

The beefy body, sharper horns and teeth really looks better on him to appear more menacing

 

[JH24 385]

6 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

I have mixed feelings on Grogar. Baddie from g1- good. Seems the type to not put up with anyone’s sh***- good. Father of all monsters- good. Defeated originally by Gusty and not the Royal Sisters 1,000 years ago- good. But his design seems a lot more menacing in his g1 days. Now he just looks like a cranky grandpa goat who would yell at you for being on his lawn.

The beefy body, sharper horns and teeth really looks better on him to appear more menacing

"Cranky grandpa." That was actually something that crossed my mind at one point as well. I still like his design though; you don't have to look menacing to be a big threat IMO.

It's possible Grogar will transform into a more powerful form near the end of this season. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by JH24

[Mirage 24,747]

42 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

...The beefy body, sharper horns and teeth really looks better on him to appear more menacing

He definitely needs to hit the gym to grow back into his horns.

[oregon 170]

1 minute ago, Mirage said:

He definitely needs to hit the gym to grow back into his horns.

“What was that Mirage?”

[Mirage 24,747]

7 minutes ago, oregon said:

“What was that Mirage?”

Time to hit the gym bruh!

[oregon 170]

1 minute ago, Mirage said:

Time to hit the gym bruh!

[RDDash 19,163]

1 minute ago, Mirage said:

Time to hit the gym bruh!

Lifting weights is fun!

[KH7672 1,604]

I've been with holding any reaction because there was something that was nagging me about this premiere and I couldn't pin point it for the longest time. Something specifically about Discord's portrayal was really...not integrated well.

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because. He did it here, he did it in The Best Gift Ever. I think the only episodes it ever felt natural when he was properly introduced into the scene like Twilight's Kingdom or Break Up Breakdown. Here he just shows up and then because he's has such a dominating presence, there's just an obvious "I'M IMPORTANT" air about him every scene he's in. It doesn't feel natural, and when it leads up to what's to be a big moment for all the characters he feels forced into their big climax like a part of their group and he just doesn't feel like it. He never has

Now I know this seems hypocritical of me as I have defended Shadow Play and it's use of Starlight in a similar sense. But two things are different as honestly Starlight is no where near as prominent as Discord. Another difference is while I admit she is forced into the conflict of perspective in part 1 suddenly voicing concern out of the blue, part 2 does a better job as the audience perspective actually shift between both her and Twilight unlike here where we're solely on Twilight and the group. But most importantly Starlight's impact is also not as prominent in Shadow Play as the credit never goes to her. She stays the support the entire time. Discord on the other hand isn't even even support until the final charge and again he comes out of nowhere, inspite of a fine in-universe explanation. But then he doesn't only become support, he is suddenly elevated to the most important character.

I'm still deliberating on why exactly I feel this way, but I put this out there to see if anyone has any response to this observation.

[gingerninja666 487]

2 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I've been with holding any reaction because there was something that was nagging me about this premiere and I couldn't pin point it for the longest time. Something specifically about Discord's portrayal was really...not integrated well.

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because. He did it here, he did it in The Best Gift Ever. I think the only episodes it ever felt natural when he was properly introduced into the scene like Twilight's Kingdom or Break Up Breakdown. Here he just shows up and then because he's has such a dominating presence, there's just an obvious "I'M IMPORTANT" air about him every scene he's in. It doesn't feel natural, and when it leads up to what's to be a big moment for all the characters he feels forced into their big climax like a part of their group and he just doesn't feel like it. He never has

Now I know this seems hypocritical of me as I have defended Shadow Play and it's use of Starlight in a similar sense. But two things are different as honestly Starlight is no where near as prominent as Discord. Another difference is while I admit she is forced into the conflict of perspective in part 1 suddenly voicing concern out of the blue, part 2 does a better job as the audience perspective actually shift between both her and Twilight unlike here where we're solely on Twilight and the group. But most importantly Starlight's impact is also not as prominent in Shadow Play as the credit never goes to her. She stays the support the entire time. Discord on the other hand isn't even even support until the final charge and again he comes out of nowhere, inspite of a fine in-universe explanation. But then he doesn't only become support, he is suddenly elevated to the most important character.

I'm still deliberating on why exactly I feel this way, but I put this out there to see if anyone has any response to this observation.

i'm willing to see where they go with this, because I still think there's a chance that Discord may have some connection with Grogar, and that may have been on Discord's mind during this episode.

 

This is something I'll have to re-evaluate once the season ends. Because as is I thought Discord was the best part of this episode. His final speech hit me weirdly hard even though I KNEW he was faking it.

[BastementSparkle 20,324]

18 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because. He did it here, he did it in The Best Gift Ever. I think the only episodes it ever felt natural when he was properly introduced into the scene like Twilight's Kingdom or Break Up Breakdown. Here he just shows up and then because he's has such a dominating presence, there's just an obvious "I'M IMPORTANT" air about him every scene he's in. It doesn't feel natural, and when it leads up to what's to be a big moment for all the characters he feels forced into their big climax like a part of their group and he just doesn't feel like it. He never has

Honestly, this description sounds like the exactly perfect kind of way to include Discord. He's the exact kind of person to just show up out of the blue and shove himself into your life whether you want him to or not. He doesn't care if it's a good time or if he's wanted or needed, the spirit of chaos does as he pleases and you just have to deal with it, whether he's trying to help you in his own way, screw up your day for a laugh, or whatever other agenda he has this time. He has that air of "I'm Important" because he's a drama queen and an attention hog who wants to steal the spotlight for himself, he thinks he's that important and he wants you and everybody else to think he is too. He's the Mane Six's friend, but he's not really part of the main group, he's the guy who shows up, insults your new haircut, turns your rug into cheese, teaches you a lesson about life in the most obnoxious way possible, and then drops out of your life again until he feels like it. Unless you're Fluttershy, then you get regular tea time and letters.

 I guess I can see how that might be jarring to someone, but it feels like the perfect fit for the character and your description only made me love him even more. His speech at the end, in my opinion works so well because he's honestly the last character who should probably ever be giving a speech like that, and while it was a plan and it's so obviously acted up and dramatic, it really felt like he was being sincere about everything he said.

[RDDash 19,163]

42 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because.

Q was more or less the same in Star Trek.

[JH24 385]

46 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because. He did it here, he did it in The Best Gift Ever. I think the only episodes it ever felt natural when he was properly introduced into the scene like Twilight's Kingdom or Break Up Breakdown. Here he just shows up and then because he's has such a dominating presence, there's just an obvious "I'M IMPORTANT" air about him every scene he's in. It doesn't feel natural, and when it leads up to what's to be a big moment for all the characters he feels forced into their big climax like a part of their group and he just doesn't feel like it. He never has

 

 

This is not the first time Discord has been playing the role of a mentor figure. Despite his sometimes immature attitude, we have to keep in mind he's still the Lord of Chaos, and likely possesses knowledge others aren't even aware off. It looks like Discord knows something is coming, and is preparing Twilight and her friends for whatever is awaiting them in the future. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by JH24

[Mirage 24,747]

42 minutes ago, oregon said:

G1 Grogar is best villain.

 

37 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I've been with holding any reaction because there was something that was nagging me about this premiere and I couldn't pin point it for the longest time. Something specifically about Discord's portrayal was really...not integrated well.

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because. He did it here, he did it in The Best Gift Ever. I think the only episodes it ever felt natural when he was properly introduced into the scene like Twilight's Kingdom or Break Up Breakdown. Here he just shows up and then because he's has such a dominating presence, there's just an obvious "I'M IMPORTANT" air about him every scene he's in. It doesn't feel natural, and when it leads up to what's to be a big moment for all the characters he feels forced into their big climax like a part of their group and he just doesn't feel like it. He never has

Now I know this seems hypocritical of me as I have defended Shadow Play and it's use of Starlight in a similar sense. But two things are different as honestly Starlight is no where near as prominent as Discord. Another difference is while I admit she is forced into the conflict of perspective in part 1 suddenly voicing concern out of the blue, part 2 does a better job as the audience perspective actually shift between both her and Twilight unlike here where we're solely on Twilight and the group. But most importantly Starlight's impact is also not as prominent in Shadow Play as the credit never goes to her. She stays the support the entire time. Discord on the other hand isn't even even support until the final charge and again he comes out of nowhere, inspite of a fine in-universe explanation. But then he doesn't only become support, he is suddenly elevated to the most important character.

I'm still deliberating on why exactly I feel this way, but I put this out there to see if anyone has any response to this observation.

Discord is a pot-stirrer (plot stirrer?). I wouldn't give it much thought - he's so random and untrustworthy he can be used for just about anything! From villain to savior, depends on his mood.

Starlight has a fairly concrete personality and is a true support character (she's Twilight's Robin, so to speak).

[CypherHoof 26,482]

2 hours ago, RyanMahaffe said:

Twilight was able to RESTORE the elements with the realization they are the spirits of them
Sombra destroyed both the elements and the source of the elements power.

It isn't the same thing.

Perhaps it is though.

The Spriits of the Elements are embodied in the mane 6; the tree is more than just what can be seen on the surface (we already know the consciousness of the tree can manifest under the School - that must imply the root system occupies a LOT of cavern space extending under ponyville; presumably with enough remaining energy, it can regrow the branches that will hold the now shattered Elements, and of course reconstructing the elements from shattered pieces is what happened the first time...

[ManaMinori 4,145]

2 hours ago, JH24 said:

"Cranky grandpa." That was actually something that crossed my mind at one point as well. I still like his design though; you don't have to look menacing to be a big threat IMO.

It's possible Grogar will transform into a more powerful form near the end of this season. 

I realize that you don't have to look intimadating to play the part, but so the saying foes- a picture is worth a thousand words. We (as humans) tend to judge by and make impressions off of first appearances, so of course, I felt I should comment on it. His image is just as much a part of his character as his personality.

[Jeric 46,850]

3 hours ago, Sinvanor said:

Sombra's death however did look pretty darn painful, damn

Yeah it did. That brief moment when his lips start to dissolve revealing his teeth and gums was kinda tight. 

[Sweet Palette 246]

9 hours ago, RaphLuna said:

I agree friend. However I feel that Grogar is still going to need King Somber so he might return.

Hope so he is my favorite bad guy ever. 

It's like, there's so much of his story that's gone untold. Having him in the spotlight, finally would be the perfect opportunity for that! He wasn't my favorite bad guy (not really sure I have a favorite) but he's an intriguing character and it would be nice to know more about him.

[Mirage 24,747]

Equestria-wide pseudo-goth industrial army take over by King Sombra, anypony? It's what we want, what we need!

[Truffles 2,033]

I enjoyed the premiere well enough - it's a fun romp that works better if you don't look too closely at the details. Some aspects didn't sit well with me, however:

Why didn't the Crystal Heart keep Sombra out? I thought it provides a shield against all dark magic trying to entire the kingdom? While others have offered explanations of his now being corporeal, I don't feel like that would have made much difference since he reached that level by the end of "TCE" in S3 and he was destroyed by the Heart anyway. A better explanation can be made in that Grogar's magic is much more powerful than anything the Crystal Heart can stop, and thus Sombra could simply be teleported into the middle of the kingdom. It would make some sense since Grogar was able to teleport Tirek and Cozy out of Tartarus with ease.

That still doesn't explain these dark magic clouds, however:

That is the kind of magic attack the Crystal Heart is designed to prevent. So I'm still not entirely comfortable with my theory. I would have preferred some exposition where Grogar said he can teleport anyone, anywhere, and Sombra would have been teleported right next to the Heart - allowing him direct access to damage it before encircling the kingdom with dark magic.

 

Next I wondered why the Tree of Harmony didn't try to protect itself? It was capable of doing so in "The Mean 6" but it didn't even try to put up a fight here. I suppose Sombra did have the element of surprise, and it's also possible it was drained after helping the Mane 6 disintegrate him in part 1. But the ease at which evil was able to overcome what are supposedly major obstacles was not particularly satisfying.

 

Also, I had expected there to be a little more of a tie-in with Sombra's defeat back in S3. He didn't really acknowledge what happened the last time, either due to his foppish attitude or because he was too embarrassed to admit the details of his previous two defeats. While there might be some good reason for it, it also wasn't particularly satisfying. He even  inexplicably (apparently) left Spike's statue standing - which one would think would be a major target for him to dispose of.

 

Finally, Sombra's personality wasn't anything like I expected him to be. As @SasQ said, Sombra reminded me nothing more than an evil version of Blueblood, with a little bit of cunning thrown in that he tricked the Mane 6 into revealing the location of the ToH. S3 Sombra was scary and he h0ad presence. This guy doesn't seem like someone who the citizens of his kingdom would refuse to remember as to what it was like under his rule.

It's kind of funny he felt he had to trick the mane 6 into revealing the location of the Tree. If he had just listened to Grogar and worked as a team, he could have learned that from Chrysalis.

 

Other minor things would have helped move me from the "like" to "love" category for this 2-parter:

I feel like the episode could have opened with a storybook exposition explaining who Grogar was and how he fits into the overall scheme of history. He doesn't seem to be following quite the narrative set by G1 Grogar, since this one is far more ancient.

The pacing is a bit off, rushed in part 1 before settling into a more comfortable stride in part 2. I liked the twist in how Sombra tricked the Mane 6, but having it required the Empire's conquest to be rushed (and led to the problems listed above) and just felt wonky overall.

What's up with Cadance in this scene:

This was right after Sombra was disintegrated, and it's not clear why she still thinks he's around, only to realize she was wrong. Just an odd scene.

 

I did enjoy a bunch of parts of this episode, however:

The Discord "death" scene got to me - and subsequently fooled me.

There was a nice Easter Egg with a Spike toy "horse" for Flurry. She seems to like dragons in general, though, as she apparently has replaced her Whammy with an orange dragon:

 

The distraction the Mane 6 used to defeat Sombra (initially) gave me a Guardians of the Galaxy vibe. I almost expected Twilight to refer to Sombra as "turdblossom."
But does that make Spike the new Rocket?

Also, Spike can add freeing Cadance, Shining, and Flurry to his list of Times He's Saved the Crystal Empire.

Speaking of the way he saved them, it's interesting that even though Sombra's dark crystals may be impervious to magic, they apparently are very susceptible to dragonfire since Spike only had to briefly breathe on them to make them weak enough for the ponies to break free. I guess he never imagined ponies and dragons could ever be friends? (Again, though - he saw Spike back in S3 - you'd think he'd plan ahead for this.) Twilight should double her efforts to fully ally with Ember and the other dragons seeing how there's more trouble ahead for Equestria if all this magic really is useless against dragonfire.

 

 

On 4/6/2019 at 11:42 AM, Myung said:

The lesson about "having the elements within" is rehashed and has been covered multiple times. Just in the season 1 premiere in fact, Nightmare Moon destroys the elements but the Mane 6 realise the power is within them and defeat her.

Wow, good catch! I totally forgot about that detail in the series premiere. Heck, the Mane 6 even figured out that believing in themselves made it possible for the stones to repair and put themselves all back together.

Of course, since I forgot about it maybe it's fair to allow the rest of the Mane 6 to have also forgotten since they've been reliant on having the actual elements available to them to don on their bodies? The question now is whether Twilight should go back and try to repair them. Even though they seem to be the equivalent of "magic feathers" (from Dumbo) having them in a physical form that can be wielded would be useful to future generations.

There's still the question as to why the Tree of Harmony itself seemed to need them to survive. It may be that we have been wrong all this time and the power of the elements doesn't flow from the tree to the Mane 6, but instead flows the other way. Thus the stones are actually a combination battery and conduit the tree was tapping to sustain itself and keep the Everfree under control.

 

23 hours ago, Ganondox said:

Overall, this episode was pretty good, main issue I found it a tad bit heavy on the expository dialogue.

Heh, I had the opposite reaction. I actually wanted more exposition to tie some of the plot points together, as I alluded to above.

23 hours ago, Ganondox said:

2. The fact that the Crystal Heart didn't repel Sombra this time. This one can also be resolved easily, it's due to him being a corporeal form this time around after Grogar resurrected him.

Also see above. But yeah, it would require more exposition.

 

19 hours ago, ImpctR said:

Derpy, Lyra you too? 

Well, at least in that state he fixed that one particular eye problem for her.

 

18 hours ago, Fluttershutter said:

Cozy glow is still too darn cute to be a convincing villain to me.

After the coy way she read her line, "I'm just a kid, so..." I have the opposite view: I feel like she could be an embodiment of evil so ancient it even makes Grogar seem as young as a lamb. Chances are I'm not right (for...reasons) but it would be interesting if that was the case. And if we learned anything, anytime Cozy is in "don't pay any attention to me" mode (or is playing dumb), you should be really paying close attention to her.

 

15 hours ago, SasQ said:

But I think he might be cousins with Prince Blueballs :J

Same.

15 hours ago, SasQ said:

And it looks like Cadence can use Spike's magic to send letters

That was a pretty interesting bit of world-building there. Also interesting that I think that's been the first time we've ever seen the actual spell being cast that sends messages through Spike.

 

8 hours ago, Thaliel said:

plus, twily already HAS a castle, there does not appear to be any need for the rulers of Equestria to reside in Canterlot

Politics. I'm pretty Canterlot doesn't want to cede its place as seat of Equestria. Ponyville doesn't really have the culture and amenities of Canterlot. Even Rarity admits that. Knowing what the delegates are like from "Princess Spike," would they really want to have to spend days in what they probably perceive is some backwater burg that just happens to have a castle?

 

4 hours ago, TheTaZe said:

Vaporized is more like it.

Twilight's been learning how to properly deal with villains and former villains from Starlight, it seems.

 

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

I think that's been my problems with Discord as a character is he literally shoves himself into the story just because. He did it here, he did it in The Best Gift Ever. I think the only episodes it ever felt natural when he was properly introduced into the scene like Twilight's Kingdom or Break Up Breakdown. Here he just shows up and then because he's has such a dominating presence, there's just an obvious "I'M IMPORTANT" air about him every scene he's in. It doesn't feel natural, and when it leads up to what's to be a big moment for all the characters he feels forced into their big climax like a part of their group and he just doesn't feel like it.

I agree it works better when he's actually summoned rather than him showing up unannounced. But to me it didn't really bother me much when it came to the ending. Part of the reason is because he's done it so many times I'm kind of used to it, just like how @R.D.Dash said he's like Q. Also in this episode he's being so meta, bringing up many questions the audience has asked and answering the question as to why he doesn't go and save Equestria from harm every single time.

Like every story, this one has some amount of sleight-of-hand. But the inclusion of meta is more so this time out. But I admit in this story those aspects have proven an interesting diversion; perhaps it will bother me more as time goes on?

 

 

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Why didn't Sombra take Spike into consideration? He mind controlled/ enslaved literally everyone else, but not Spike? After being defeated by him the first time, and straight up seeing how helpful he had been to Twilight- enough to get the Crystal Heart away from the activated trap and get it to Cadence- WHY in the name of Luna does he not take care of Spike quickly, the second time around? Was the giant Spike statues in the empire not evidence enough that Spike should be dealt with, first and foremost? it should've been clear that Sombra shouldn't have underestimated this guy and gotten distracted by messing with the mane 6 for Spike to foil his plans again and free the hostages. But yet.....(sigh)

Edited April 8, 2019 by Nightmare Muffin

[gingerninja666 487]

10 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Why didn't Sombra take Spike into consideration? He mind controlled/ enslaved literally everyone else, but not Spike? After being defeated by him the first time, and straight up seeing how helpful he had been to Twilight- enough to get the Crystal Heart away from the activated trap and get it to Cadence- WHY in the name of Luna does he not take care of Spike quickly, the second time around? Was the giant Spike statues in the empire not evidence enough that Spike should be dealt with, first and foremost? it should've been clear that Sombra shouldn't have underestimated this guy and gotten distracted by messing with the mane 6 for Spike to foil his plans again and free the hostages. But yet.....(sigh)

Wait, what are you talking about? He DOES mind control Spike. You see him walking with Starlight.

 

During the whole Crystal empire sequence he intentionally let himself be defeated so that he could follow the mane 6 back to the source of their power. (and actually, looking back, I don't think you even see Spike until they reveal that they were distracting Sombra)

 

I feel like you're searching for things to complain about.

Edited April 8, 2019 by gingerninja666

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Just now, gingerninja666 said:

Wait, what are you talking about? He DOES mind control Spike. You see him walking with Starlight.

 

During the whole Crystal empire sequence he intentionally let himself be defeated so that he could follow the mane 6 back to the source of their power.

 

I feel like you're searching for things to complain about.

no, i'm talking about when the mane 6 first showed up at the castle to stop him. We see them run in- we don't see Spike at all until Twi says "we just needed to face them long enough to distract you". Sombra saw them all run in. Cadance pointed out their arrival. His first and only priority should've been Spike, as soon as he saw him come in.

[gingerninja666 487]

12 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

no, i'm talking about when the mane 6 first showed up at the castle to stop him. We see them run in- we don't see Spike at all until Twi says "we just needed to face them long enough to distract you". Sombra saw them all run in. Cadance pointed out their arrival. His first and only priority should've been Spike, as soon as he saw him come in.

If you didn't see Spike run into the room along with the mane cast, why do you assume that Sombra did? I just assumed that he flew in sneakily through the window after Sombra engaged with the mane cast.

Edited April 8, 2019 by gingerninja666