mega thread Feminist Club!

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

So what is this "male privilege" exactly? (how does it apply to the US for example)

 

I'm all for gender equality, but I don't see the problem in the US at the moment.

 

Don't read this as antagonistic, I actually want to learn more on this subject

[Visual Spectrum 1,932]

I'm a femininist. It is hard for me to tell other people I am because a lot of people think feminism means women > men. 

 

I am very much against gender rolls. If a girl wants to play football, she should. If a guy wants to be a cheerleader or go out wearing a dress, he should. I am against sexism regardless of who it's towards or the reason. There are women who would love to play video games and go hunting, and there are men who would love to wear dresses and have tea parties. (I love tea parties!) 

[ShadowFoxz 342]

So what is this "male privilege" exactly? (how does it apply to the US for example)

 

I'm all for gender equality, but I don't see the problem in the US at the moment.

 

Don't read this as antagonistic, I actually want to learn more on this subject

I'm really cutting it shallow but its pretty much means that presenting or being a male gives you some advantages like being potrayed positivly in the media etc

 

It is a problem as it is unrealistic and causes many problems for Non-binary people

 

 

if my definition sucks or to understand ask Jennabun as she could probably explain it better than I personally can.

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

I'm really cutting it shallow but its pretty much means that presenting or being a male gives you some advantages like being potrayed positivly in the media etc

 

It is a problem as it is unrealistic and causes many problems for Non-binary people

 

 

if my definition sucks or to understand ask Jennabun as she could probably explain it better than I personally can.

Thanks. I understand the definition but I'm looking for specific examples. As far as I can tell, women as a group seem to be no less privileged than men in America.

[chaos rains 190]

This is exactly why I joined the herd since lauren fausts idea was to demote the idea of gender role and I stand by her 100000% I despise guys who think of women as some kind of object and I despise the way in which we men get abuse for an example liking pink or being into mlp. This all needs to change. Does it matter who stays home and watches the kids or who makes dinner or who watches what? Infact when it comes to wearing dresses in the centuries past men wore them all the time as they were the fassion but now they just claim its girly and so on. The only difference between us is our bodies and thats it. Feminism is what I stand for and I am proud. Equality is key to the future.

[ShadowFoxz 342]

Thanks. I understand the definition but I'm looking for specific examples. As far as I can tell, women as a group seem to be no less privileged than men in America.

a example is that men are portrayed more positively and that men dont have to worry about being raped when walking home in the dark

[The JLmle 5,474]

Thanks. I understand the definition but I'm looking for specific examples. As far as I can tell, women as a group seem to be no less privileged than men in America.

One instance is the pay thing; whether we want to admit it or not; there is still a sizeable gap in what men and women make for doing the same job; even in the U.S. Other workplace things include women getting passed up for leadership promotions; I've seen this first hand where I work when corporate hires a man from outside of the company for a high level management position despite the fact that there's a woman with equal qualifications who already works for the company and is familiar with many things that will help them assimilate into the job easier... Now, I may be wrong and this isn't male priveledge, as I'm just learning about the concept today; but I know that these things do go on... Even in first world countries.

Edited August 9, 2014 by The JLmle

[chaos rains 190]

Unfortunately, I don't know why our society has such a double standard. Sometimes men have gender standards forced upon them as well. We can't forget that.

But the Twilight series is awful. It praises abusive relationship ships, and it's garbage.

On a different topic, I drew this image a week or two ago, when more radical feminists were saying that men or genderfluid people couldn't be considered beautiful :

I think the pic is amazing and also yes we are expected to be strong built like tanks and have some strange fascination for all things cars and sports n beers and just things that dont look pink and cute and mlp style. Accept I dont care for these stupid roles I care for those who are willing to take a step outside this gender role nonsence. Women and men alike should be equal no I own you crap just be who you ar3 and give us the chance tonbe who we are without being told what position to stand in or how we should look and so on.

[The JLmle 5,474]

I think the pic is amazing and also yes we are expected to be strong built like tanks and have some strange fascination for all things cars and sports n beers and just things that dont look pink and cute and mlp style. Accept I dont care for these stupid roles I care for those who are willing to take a step outside this gender role nonsence. Women and men alike should be equal no I own you crap just be who you ar3 and give us the chance tonbe who we are without being told what position to stand in or how we should look and so on.

Exactly! I work retail (yuck!) and I can't tell you how many times I get so frustrated because I go to help a customer load something and someone implies I should wait and let a man do it! Grrrr.... It's so stupid! I'm a big girl to! I'm 5'10" (175cm) in decent shape, but I have a thick frame... There is no logical reason to send a person half my size to move a bag of concrete JUST BECAUSE HE'S A MAN! Sorry; I got carried away a bit... But it's frustrating!

[chaos rains 190]

Exactly! I work retail (yuck!) and I can't tell you how many times I get so frustrated because I go to help a customer load something and someone implies I should wait and let a man do it! Grrrr.... It's so stupid! I'm a big girl to! I'm 5'10" (175cm) in decent shape, but I have a thick frame... There is no logical reason to send a person half my size to move a bag of concrete JUST BECAUSE HE'S A MAN! Sorry; I got carried away a bit... But it's frustrating!

ya dont need to apologise for me as a man I feel its my duty to ask a woman if she needs help but if she says no I leave it be since for me its just being kind and well showing compassion if thats a god enough word but I do the same for men aswell. Thats mynlimit though i may say stupid things to friends like let a man handle the digging but I always make it clear im joking and make sure I look stupid in the way I do it. Women are just as strong as us men in so many ways. Gender roles just divide people and cause issues like how we bronies are recieved and pegesisters have the same issues sometimes even due to a few daft bronies but in the end no matter who we call ourselves we are all equal and should be respected as such. :-)

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

One instance is the pay thing; whether we want to admit it or not; there is still a sizeable gap in what men and women make for doing the same job; even in the U.S. Other workplace things include women getting passed up for leadership promotions; I've seen this first hand where I work when corporate hires a man from outside of the company for a high level management position despite the fact that there's a woman with equal qualifications who already works for the company and is familiar with many things that will help them assimilate into the job easier... Now, I may be wrong and this isn't male priveledge, as I'm just learning about the concept today; but I know that these things do go on... Even in first world countries.

As I understand it, the pay gap all but vanishes when you factor in things other than just gender. Not an exonmics expert, but that's what I've read and heard from other people

[The JLmle 5,474]

As I understand it, the pay gap all but vanishes when you factor in things other than just gender. Not an exonmics expert, but that's what I've read and heard from other people

I don't know about that... I'm not an ecomics expert either; but I remember hearing an NPR article not too long ago about the observance of a particular day in the year when a man had already cleared what a woman doing the same job would clear in a year (if anypony knows more than I remember; please share)... I'm not saying that the people didn't believe what they said to be true; but I'd need to hear some pretty convincing evidence about these "other factors" before I took it as fact... In my experience, NPR has been a fairly trustworthy news source...

[rainbowsmash13 53]

I don't know about that... I'm not an ecomics expert either; but I remember hearing an NPR article not too long ago about the observance of a particular day in the year when a man had already cleared what a woman doing the same job would clear in a year (if anypony knows more than I remember; please share)... I'm not saying that the people didn't believe what they said to be true; but I'd need to hear some pretty convincing evidence about these "other factors" before I took it as fact... In my experience, NPR has been a fairly trustworthy news source...

I hard that for part time work women in Britain earn 4% more per hour how much per hour do you think it is in the US or Britain if I was mistaken

[chaos rains 190]

I don't know about that... I'm not an ecomics expert either; but I remember hearing an NPR article not too long ago about the observance of a particular day in the year when a man had already cleared what a woman doing the same job would clear in a year (if anypony knows more than I remember; please share)... I'm not saying that the people didn't believe what they said to be true; but I'd need to hear some pretty convincing evidence about these "other factors" before I took it as fact... In my experience, NPR has been a fairly trustworthy news source...

gender doesnt factorninto it thats down to the individual like a man can do twice as much as another man and a woman 3 times as much its down to personal experience and motivation I think and pay factors into it aswell since a man working in sales for example is working for 6 pounds or dollars an hour depending where you are from and another man or woman in this part shouldve said woman at the start to anyway has the same job but gets say 5 pound or dollars more who will be more motivated the one with low wages or the higher paid employee of the same role? Its down to the individual and the details of the job and so on so comparing gender or age or any other stereotype is just pointless I think. Sorry about grammer.

[Jennabun 1,578]

On the pay gap thing:

 

On average, it is a fact that women make less than men. The gap is bigger or smaller depending on where you live. However, there's this thing going on right now where people are saying that a pay gap between genders doesn't actually exist, rendering feminism irrelevant. The people who believe the pay gap is a "myth" say that the pay gap exists because:

 

- women choose less glamorous occupations than men

- women are less likely to ask for a promotion than a man and are less demanding than men when negotiating salary

- women are more likely to take time off to care for family members

 

Because of these above points, people like to just dismiss the issue of the pay gap, insisting that the pay gap is all about women's choices. I've heard people say "Women could just close they pay gap if they decided to make better choices instead of 'playing the victim!'"

 

However, there's more to this situation than meets the eye. I'll talk about each of the main arguments. I hope that you pro-feminists can read this and have some information to combat the people who debate you about the pay gap

 

"Women earn less because they choose less glamorous occupations than men."

It is true than, on average, women are more likely to choose lower-paying occupations than men do. Women are socialized to prefer occupations that are, to most people, less glamorous and less prestigious than men do. For example, women dominate in career fields such as education, social work, arts, counseling, etc. Men dominate in fields such as engineering, administration, computer science, etc. In my opinion, this isn't really an excuse to put down feminism and shut down all dialogue about the gender and wages. I think it might be wise to ask ourselves why exactly women aren't getting encouraged to pursue more prestigious occupations or why women feel uncomfortable in those fields. What do these vastly different career choices between the genders say about the way our society perceives women and their skills? I think merely the fact that genders are socialized to prefer such different careers says a lot about society and how we collectively view the genders: to this day, for some reason, people still think men are better suited to be leaders and women are suited to be of service. Sure, this may "explain away" the pay gap, it doesn't men feminism still doesn't have a lot of work to do when it comes to how men and women are socialized into certain roles.(disclaimer: I'm in no way saying public service jobs are "worse" than leadership positions, merely that they pay less. I, myself, am a teacher - I would never want anyone to think I'm unappreciative of work in female-dominated fields).

 

Buuut, that's all really besides the point. Because the pay gap actually isn't explained away by the difference in men and women's career choices. Even when looking at men and women in the same exact careers, a pay gap still exists in the vast majority of careers. Furthermore, the pay gap actually widens significantly when we look at high-paying male dominated career fields. In a recent career study that was controlled by age, race, hours, and education, for example, female doctors and surgeons earned 71 percent of men’s wages, female financial specialists made 66 percent of what men made, female lawyers and judges made 82 percent of what men made.

 

"Women earn less because they are less likely to ask for a promotion or negotiate a higher salary."

Yeah, that's correct. But there's some sexist perceptions of women than prevent women from demanding higher pay. When women ask for a raise or a promotion, it can actually backfire and hurt her career in the long run. This is because women who are more assertive tend to be perceived as too aggressive, mean, or annoying, even when saying the exact same script as a man when asking for higher pay, studies have shown.

 

Also, women are inherently at a disadvantage when asking for a raise because from an early age women are socialized to be warm, accommodating, and to put others before herself. For this reason, women without special training in negotiation can give up early during negotiation or never initiate negotiations in the first place, not knowing how. Once again, people try and use this fact to "explain away" the pay gap and feminist discourse as a whole. But once again, I feel like these facts just bring up more troubling matters of how society is trained to perceive women and how we subconsciously equip boys and girls with different skills from birth. Sexist expectations are still alive and well, and those expectations literally affect how much money people make when they are adults. That is not okay.

 

"Women earn less because they are more likely to take time off to take care of family members."

It is true that women take more sick days than men. However, there are once again bigger factors at work.

 

As we've discussed before, women are more likely to work in the public sector jobs. For this reason, women are simply more likely to get sick than men, because you are more likely to get infected while working directly with people rather than working in, say, an office. So this isn't actually always reflected by women's choices to take off work, it's reflected in the fact that women are actually just more sick more often.

 

But let's pretend we're talking about two people from the same exact job, one man and one woman. It's factual than women still do take more days off than men, and they are more likely to take sick days even if they're not sick themselves. Once again, people use this fact to say that the pay gap doesn't actually exist and therefore feminism has no purpose talking about gender discrimination in jobs. But people need to ask themselves this: why exactly do women take more sick days than men, even when women and men are sick the same amount?

 

For one, there's still a societal expectation that women are the "more nurturing" gender. Therefore, nuclear families are more likely to expect the mother to stay home when children or an elderly family member is sick. This is one way societal gender roles/expectations give women the shaft and can hurt her career. Also, occupations can often be overly rigid, providing inflexible work schedules and not providing workers with benefits such as sick pay or personal days. For this reason, the pay gap drastically increases for women in inflexible occupations as opposed to occupations which are flexible or provide benefits. I believe that this is a sexist issue. Companies could easily be more female-friendly if they wanted - they could a conscious effort to make concessions in the case of uncontrollable factors like family emergencies and illness. But often, companies just don't want to, and that unfairly impacts women.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

I think the problem is that people over-simplify the pay gap. People hear "pay gap" and think that means bosses choosing not to pay women as much as men on purpose because they are blatant misogynists. Obviously, that's not happening as much.  It's an extremely complicated issue. Most of the time, more subtle practices are at work which keep women down. It's often called "institution sexism." With institutional sexism, people aren't outright trying to be sexist. People aren't trying to pay women less than men on purpose. Rather, bosses simply make decisions that indirectly have negative implications for women, and they don't realize it because they just haven't thought about it from that perspective before. They don't realize that society has affected how we view assertive women. They don't realize that the culture we grow up in give us gendered biases. The type of sexism women fact in the workplace is often invisible, even to the people living it. We're told time and time again that we live in a post-sexism world, that we are gender-blind, color-blind, that everyone's equal, etc. The fact is, when we tell ourselves this, we trick ourselves into ignoring subtle oppression that constantly happens in the background of our lives.

 

People shouldn't write off the pay gap debate, saying "IT'S NOT REAL!!!! It's not DIRECT discrimination; therefore we shouldn't talk about it!" It's true that the pay gap is not what it seems, but it's still a discussion rich with important points about how women still are facing some issues when it comes to employment and society as a whole.

 

So what is this "male privilege" exactly? (how does it apply to the US for example)

I'm all for gender equality, but I don't see the problem in the US at the moment.

Don't read this as antagonistic, I actually want to learn more on this subject

 

This is pretty good "male privilege checklist," citing some ways men still have some inherent privileges in the US.

[chaos rains 190]

 

Im amazed at how much work you did on this. :-) its always down to social image and it causes women to fear how they are seen like most women will wear make up because they think it makes them pretty not all women ofcourse but what if us men had swapped around and taken the roles of women like say make up dresses and and everything a woman is meant to do? Obviously men cant give birth thats the only thing well that and breast feeding. For what any woman goes through in her life she never gets enough praise no instead she is told to stand in a kitchen and make meals and look after the kids and when she reaches high enough its like a man is standing at the top with a boot on him ready to kick her back down. I may be male but I am jowhere near as dumb as these sexist morons and if I had a company there is no question in my mind women would have the exact same benefits and wages as men and ifbwomen needed to take leave for being pregnant I would make sure she had support rather than abandon her as pregnancy is a part of a womans life and should not just be viewed as a loss of money. But that part is just my opinion and you previously put on this thread something about men and advantages and I have to say maybe some men do but I see no such thing. Being a man means nothing but having a penis and occasionally being turned on by images of jennifer aniston lol being a man is just that and no man should act above his station. If a mannis gay then that is his right same as a woman who is lesbian. If a woman wants to lead her country I say you go girl and if a woman wants a pay rise why should she feel preasured? Equality means being given the exact same chances as all others no matter what skin color sex or even sexual preference and in our case what we watch. We live to be free.

On the pay gap thing:

 

On average, it is a fact that women make less than men. The gap is bigger or smaller depending on where you live. However, there's this thing going on right now where people are saying that a pay gap between genders doesn't actually exist, rendering feminism irrelevant. The people who believe the pay gap is a "myth" say that the pay gap exists because:

 

- women choose less glamorous occupations than men

- women are less likely to ask for a promotion than a man and are less demanding than men when negotiating salary

- women are more likely to take time off to care for family members

 

Because of these above points, people like to just dismiss the issue of the pay gap, insisting that the pay gap is all about women's choices. I've heard people say "Women could just close they pay gap if they decided to make better choices instead of 'playing the victim!'"

 

However, there's more to this situation than meets the eye. I'll talk about each of the main arguments. I hope that you pro-feminists can read this and have some information to combat the people who debate you about the pay gap

 

"Women earn less because they choose less glamorous occupations than men."

It is true than, on average, women are more likely to choose lower-paying occupations than men do. Women are socialized to prefer occupations that are, to most people, less glamorous and less prestigious than men do. For example, women dominate in career fields such as education, social work, arts, counseling, etc. Men dominate in fields such as engineering, administration, computer science, etc. In my opinion, this isn't really an excuse to put down feminism and shut down all dialogue about the gender and wages. I think it might be wise to ask ourselves why exactly women aren't getting encouraged to pursue more prestigious occupations or why women feel uncomfortable in those fields. What do these vastly different career choices between the genders say about the way our society perceives women and their skills? I think merely the fact that genders are socialized to prefer such different careers says a lot about society and how we collectively view the genders: to this day, for some reason, people still think men are better suited to be leaders and women are suited to be of service. Sure, this may "explain away" the pay gap, it doesn't men feminism still doesn't have a lot of work to do when it comes to how men and women are socialized into certain roles.(disclaimer: I'm in no way saying public service jobs are "worse" than leadership positions, merely that they pay less. I, myself, am a teacher - I would never want anyone to think I'm unappreciative of work in female-dominated fields).

 

Buuut, that's all really besides the point. Because the pay gap actually isn't explained away by the difference in men and women's career choices. Even when looking at men and women in the same exact careers, a pay gap still exists in the vast majority of careers. Furthermore, the pay gap actually widens significantly when we look at high-paying male dominated career fields. In a recent career study that was controlled by age, race, hours, and education, for example, female doctors and surgeons earned 71 percent of men’s wages, female financial specialists made 66 percent of what men made, female lawyers and judges made 82 percent of what men made.

 

"Women earn less because they are less likely to ask for a promotion or negotiate a higher salary."

Yeah, that's correct. But there's some sexist perceptions of women than prevent women from demanding higher pay. When women ask for a raise or a promotion, it can actually backfire and hurt her career in the long run. This is because women who are more assertive tend to be perceived as too aggressive, mean, or annoying, even when saying the exact same script as a man when asking for higher pay, studies have shown.

 

Also, women are inherently at a disadvantage when asking for a raise because from an early age women are socialized to be warm, accommodating, and to put others before herself. For this reason, women without special training in negotiation can give up early during negotiation or never initiate negotiations in the first place, not knowing how. Once again, people try and use this fact to "explain away" the pay gap and feminist discourse as a whole. But once again, I feel like these facts just bring up more troubling matters of how society is trained to perceive women and how we subconsciously equip boys and girls with different skills from birth. Sexist expectations are still alive and well, and those expectations literally affect how much money people make when they are adults. That is not okay.

 

"Women earn less because they are more likely to take time off to take care of family members."

It is true that women take more sick days than men. However, there are once again bigger factors at work.

 

As we've discussed before, women are more likely to work in the public sector jobs. For this reason, women are simply more likely to get sick than men, because you are more likely to get infected while working directly with people rather than working in, say, an office. So this isn't actually always reflected by women's choices to take off work, it's reflected in the fact that women are actually just more sick more often.

 

But let's pretend we're talking about two people from the same exact job, one man and one woman. It's factual than women still do take more days off than men, and they are more likely to take sick days even if they're not sick themselves. Once again, people use this fact to say that the pay gap doesn't actually exist and therefore feminism as no purpose talking about gender discrimination in jobs. But people need to ask themselves this: why exactly do women take more sick days than men, even when women and men are sick the same amount?

 

For one, there's still a societal expectation that women are the "more nurturing" gender. Therefore, nuclear families are more likely to expect the mother to stay home when children or an elderly family member is sick. This is one way societal gender roles/expectations give women the shaft and can hurt her career. Also, occupations can often be overly rigid, providing inflexible work schedules and not providing workers with benefits such as sick pay or personal days. For this reason, the pay gap drastically increases for women in inflexible occupations as opposed to occupations which are flexible or provide benefits. I believe that this is a sexist issue. Companies could easily be more female-friendly if they wanted - they could a conscious effort to make concessions in the case of uncontrollable factors like family emergencies and illness. But often, companies just don't want to, and that unfairly impacts women.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

I think the problem is that people over-simplify the pay gap. People hear "pay gap" and think that means bosses choosing not to pay women as much as men on purpose because they are blatant misogynists. Obviously, that's not happening as much.  It's an extremely complicated issue. Most of the time, more subtle practices are at work which keep women down. It's often called "institution sexism." With institutional sexism, people aren't outright trying to be sexist. People aren't trying to pay women less than men on purpose. Rather, bosses simply make decisions that indirectly have negative implications for women, and they don't realize it because they just haven't thought about it from that perspective before. They don't realize that society has affected how we view assertive women. They don't realize that the culture we grow up in give us gendered biases. The type of sexism women fact in the workplace is often invisible, even to the people living it. We're told time and time again that we live in a post-sexism world, that we are gender-blind, color-blind, that everyone's equal, etc. The fact is, when we tell ourselves this, we trick ourselves into ignoring subtle oppression that constantly happens in the background of our lives.

 

People shouldn't write off the pay gap debate, saying "IT'S NOT REAL!!!! It's not DIRECT discrimination; therefore we shouldn't talk about it!" It's true that the pay gap is not what it seems, but it's still a discussion rich with important points about how women still are facing some issues when it comes to employment and society as a whole.

 

 

 

This is pretty good "male privilege checklist," citing some ways men still have some inherent privileges in the US.

By the way is it me or is this thread starting to look like a novel? Lol

[Odyssey 5,713]

This is a lovely thread. It makes me rather sad that a thread this positive gets a lot of hate just because others think of us as man-hating losers. I consider myself a feminist, although I'm still trying to learn the ropes.

 

When and why did you become a feminist?

A year ago. I'm still learning what is good and bad about certain feminism issues, but becoming a feminist has changed my opinion on a lot of different things.

 

Why do you think feminism is still relevant to today's world?

Because there are things that are still get treated badly after all of these years, like effeminate men or tomboys. We still need feminism so a lot of things are finally accepted by society. Plus, feminism is still relevant because seeing that really nasty stuff like rape and domestic violence must be stopped. :c

 

What is difficult about being a feminist in general?

Having to deal with all of that man-hating nonsense. I don't hate men at all.

 

How does MLP support your feminist values?

Every female character in the show is unique and individual. This message tells the audience that there are many ways to be yourself, and I like that. It's also nice to see female characters get treated in a positive manner, since there aren't many female-centric shows that do this.

 

What is awesome about being a feminist?

The fact that you want the best for people who need help or feminism. C:

 

How has feminism affected you personally?

It affected me quite a bit. I was skeptical of the concept at first, but when I learnt more about it, it has changed my opinion on a lot of things. For example, before I became a feminist, I hated girly girls, simply because I thought that girly meant weak. It didn't help that I grew up with a lot of male-centric things. I now think that girly girls are great people and shouldn't be afraid to be themselves. c:

 

What are some good feminist quotes, graphics, or articles?

Sort of? This part actually leads to a question I'm trying to figure out... xP

 

To all of the feminists, what are your thoughts on strong female characters? I'm trying to write a story that has a female lead who is plucky but arrogant. She grew up in a rough area where battling and using magic is almost second nature to them. She also is in a team with an intelligent but sarcastic man. I don't want to make her some kind of embodiment of sexism or anything, but I do want to keep her backstory and personality traits. -3- What are your thoughts? Here is a link about why strong female characters are bad. If it's anti-feminist, I apologise. xP

 

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/

[Zygen 6,065]

On the pay gap thing:

 

On average, it is a fact that women make less than men. The gap is bigger or smaller depending on where you live. However, there's this thing going on right now where people are saying that a pay gap between genders doesn't actually exist, rendering feminism irrelevant. The people who believe the pay gap is a "myth" say that the pay gap exists because:

 

- women choose less glamorous occupations than men

- women are less likely to ask for a promotion than a man and are less demanding than men when negotiating salary

- women are more likely to take time off to care for family members

 

Because of these above points, people like to just dismiss the issue of the pay gap, insisting that the pay gap is all about women's choices. I've heard people say "Women could just close they pay gap if they decided to make better choices instead of 'playing the victim!'"

 

However, there's more to this situation than meets the eye. I'll talk about each of the main arguments. I hope that you pro-feminists can read this and have some information to combat the people who debate you about the pay gap

 

"Women earn less because they choose less glamorous occupations than men."

It is true than, on average, women are more likely to choose lower-paying occupations than men do. Women are socialized to prefer occupations that are, to most people, less glamorous and less prestigious than men do. For example, women dominate in career fields such as education, social work, arts, counseling, etc. Men dominate in fields such as engineering, administration, computer science, etc. In my opinion, this isn't really an excuse to put down feminism and shut down all dialogue about the gender and wages. I think it might be wise to ask ourselves why exactly women aren't getting encouraged to pursue more prestigious occupations or why women feel uncomfortable in those fields. What do these vastly different career choices between the genders say about the way our society perceives women and their skills? I think merely the fact that genders are socialized to prefer such different careers says a lot about society and how we collectively view the genders: to this day, for some reason, people still think men are better suited to be leaders and women are suited to be of service. Sure, this may "explain away" the pay gap, it doesn't men feminism still doesn't have a lot of work to do when it comes to how men and women are socialized into certain roles.(disclaimer: I'm in no way saying public service jobs are "worse" than leadership positions, merely that they pay less. I, myself, am a teacher - I would never want anyone to think I'm unappreciative of work in female-dominated fields).

 

Buuut, that's all really besides the point. Because the pay gap actually isn't explained away by the difference in men and women's career choices. Even when looking at men and women in the same exact careers, a pay gap still exists in the vast majority of careers. Furthermore, the pay gap actually widens significantly when we look at high-paying male dominated career fields. In a recent career study that was controlled by age, race, hours, and education, for example, female doctors and surgeons earned 71 percent of men’s wages, female financial specialists made 66 percent of what men made, female lawyers and judges made 82 percent of what men made.

 

"Women earn less because they are less likely to ask for a promotion or negotiate a higher salary."

Yeah, that's correct. But there's some sexist perceptions of women than prevent women from demanding higher pay. When women ask for a raise or a promotion, it can actually backfire and hurt her career in the long run. This is because women who are more assertive tend to be perceived as too aggressive, mean, or annoying, even when saying the exact same script as a man when asking for higher pay, studies have shown.

 

Also, women are inherently at a disadvantage when asking for a raise because from an early age women are socialized to be warm, accommodating, and to put others before herself. For this reason, women without special training in negotiation can give up early during negotiation or never initiate negotiations in the first place, not knowing how. Once again, people try and use this fact to "explain away" the pay gap and feminist discourse as a whole. But once again, I feel like these facts just bring up more troubling matters of how society is trained to perceive women and how we subconsciously equip boys and girls with different skills from birth. Sexist expectations are still alive and well, and those expectations literally affect how much money people make when they are adults. That is not okay.

 

"Women earn less because they are more likely to take time off to take care of family members."

It is true that women take more sick days than men. However, there are once again bigger factors at work.

 

As we've discussed before, women are more likely to work in the public sector jobs. For this reason, women are simply more likely to get sick than men, because you are more likely to get infected while working directly with people rather than working in, say, an office. So this isn't actually always reflected by women's choices to take off work, it's reflected in the fact that women are actually just more sick more often.

 

But let's pretend we're talking about two people from the same exact job, one man and one woman. It's factual than women still do take more days off than men, and they are more likely to take sick days even if they're not sick themselves. Once again, people use this fact to say that the pay gap doesn't actually exist and therefore feminism has no purpose talking about gender discrimination in jobs. But people need to ask themselves this: why exactly do women take more sick days than men, even when women and men are sick the same amount?

 

For one, there's still a societal expectation that women are the "more nurturing" gender. Therefore, nuclear families are more likely to expect the mother to stay home when children or an elderly family member is sick. This is one way societal gender roles/expectations give women the shaft and can hurt her career. Also, occupations can often be overly rigid, providing inflexible work schedules and not providing workers with benefits such as sick pay or personal days. For this reason, the pay gap drastically increases for women in inflexible occupations as opposed to occupations which are flexible or provide benefits. I believe that this is a sexist issue. Companies could easily be more female-friendly if they wanted - they could a conscious effort to make concessions in the case of uncontrollable factors like family emergencies and illness. But often, companies just don't want to, and that unfairly impacts women.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

I think the problem is that people over-simplify the pay gap. People hear "pay gap" and think that means bosses choosing not to pay women as much as men on purpose because they are blatant misogynists. Obviously, that's not happening as much.  It's an extremely complicated issue. Most of the time, more subtle practices are at work which keep women down. It's often called "institution sexism." With institutional sexism, people aren't outright trying to be sexist. People aren't trying to pay women less than men on purpose. Rather, bosses simply make decisions that indirectly have negative implications for women, and they don't realize it because they just haven't thought about it from that perspective before. They don't realize that society has affected how we view assertive women. They don't realize that the culture we grow up in give us gendered biases. The type of sexism women fact in the workplace is often invisible, even to the people living it. We're told time and time again that we live in a post-sexism world, that we are gender-blind, color-blind, that everyone's equal, etc. The fact is, when we tell ourselves this, we trick ourselves into ignoring subtle oppression that constantly happens in the background of our lives.

 

People shouldn't write off the pay gap debate, saying "IT'S NOT REAL!!!! It's not DIRECT discrimination; therefore we shouldn't talk about it!" It's true that the pay gap is not what it seems, but it's still a discussion rich with important points about how women still are facing some issues when it comes to employment and society as a whole.

 

 

 

This is pretty good "male privilege checklist," citing some ways men still have some inherent privileges in the US.

I won't deny the pay gap exists in cases, it isn't as bad as some make it out to be, but it certainly exists.

 

And I think I agree that a lot of the reasons the pay gap exists is due to culturally ingrained stereotypes.

 

Since a lot of the pay gap issues are ingrained into the culture, they will probably be quite hard to remedy, maybe even impossible.

 

Regardless, I can still agree with most of what you said.

 

As for the male perks list thing, I can say that many of the things are correct, or accurate to some extent. Some are kinda eh, and some depend on specific experiences of each individual, but regardless most are true.

 

Of course there are perks to being a women that women don't always notice as well. Both sides have their benefits and disadvantages and the such.

 

Sorry if I'm sounding argumentative or something, I'm trying not to be. I know this is a feminism thread, and trust me, I'm all for fixing issues and going closer to equality, but I guess I feel inclined to make sure that the male side of things is still realized too. I guess as a male myself it's a natural inclination, and one hard to avoid, so sorry, forgive me for relaying information you probably already know.

 

I still agree with many things you have said, and I think you have helped me to understand feminism better. So thanks, I try my best to not come off as aggressive, and try my best to be supportive of feminine issues, but I guess again as a male it can be hard as my pride and such can get in the way.

 

Also, what your doing as a teacher is awesome. While the students may or may not all fully appreciate it, your doing some good work, I'm sure in the future they will look back and maybe remember what you have taught them, and it will help them be better individuals.

 

Finally, I know this is a long post, but I have another question. Since I've got here and seem true feminists such as yourself, I've realized that feminists are really just striving for equality overall.

 

So, why aren't feminists just like, pro equality or something? What are the differences between equality and feminism? Because I know I'm all for equality to my knowledge, and I've even started to think of myself as a feminist to an extent due to this thread.

 

I'm just curious what's the differences really.

 

Thanks again. And sorry for rambling once again

[Jennabun 1,578]

 

To all of the feminists, what are your thoughts on strong female characters? I'm trying to write a story that has a female lead who is plucky but arrogant. She grew up in a rough area where battling and using magic is almost second nature to them. She also is in a team with an intelligent but sarcastic man. I don't want to make her some kind of embodiment of sexism or anything, but I do want to keep her backstory and personality traits. -3- What are your thoughts? Here is a link about why strong female characters are bad. If it's anti-feminist, I apologise. xP

 

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/

 

I actually agree with the article you posted! The issue is, unlike the author, I never thought "strong female characters" meant perfect, traditionally-hot, slightly-masculine characters. I think a "strong" female character merely is a well-rounded, distinct, and interesting character. A strong female character should have admirable strengths as well as glaring flaws. She should overcome obstacles and show character growth. She should be purposeful. She could be masculine, feminine, or in-between. She could fall in love or not. She could be physically strong or not. She could be pretty or not. She could be anything! I think the author should just be conscious of avoiding flat, trite stereotyping in favor of creating a dynamic, engaging character. That's what makes a character "strong!"

[Zygen 6,065]

I will direct you to this post I did, like, last month about that!

 

 

 

I have the same issue a lot XD no worries

Oh ok, that clears a good bit up, thanks!

 

Still, I feel kinda odd to label myself as a feminist even If I were to, or if I basically support the things they do because I feel like while they're still striving for equality, that the term feminists makes me feel like I'm ignoring any issues on the masculine side of things. True there probably aren't quite as many issues there, but they exist, so it just feels kinda weird to think of myself as feminist.

 

Plus I'm usually pretty passive as a person anyways(if you can't tell) so I don't know if I want to feel I'm taking sides. So idk. I know that some I that thinking is from the stereotypical feminists I'm use to seeing, and not wanting to associate with them. But still.

 

And honestly even if I am in support of equality, or feminism or whatever, I don't feel I have the drive either way to do anything about it. Besides say I am in support of it.

 

Maybe I'm just confusing myself, regardless, thanks for the info Jennabun!

[Jennabun 1,578]

I was watching The Powerpuff Girls on Netflix earlier and I watched this episode. It was amazing and pretty dang feminist-positive. It confronts the idea of gender roles and excluding people based on gendered stereotypes. I thought you all might enjoy it

[chaos rains 190]

@@chaos rains,

 

Face disfigurations, especially in salient areas, will put you in the "uncanny valley" spectrum, strictly speaking

 

It means that people will be automatically "put off", because their instinct is telling them that you're "untrustworthy" because "something is wrong with you". That is something hardwired in your brain. Kids of course will make fun of you, adults will avoid looking at you if they can. The "argument from personal experience" would be one that anyone can make, and you'll get different results every time someone makes it...

 

I don't think it's for a lack of understanding. A mirror-type kind of thinking, or empathy, tends to develop profoundly at a much later age, which is why children are known to be such hideous little blighters that bully each other and generally behave like baboons.

 

Many people don't get out of that stage, unfortunately, is what I think, and most of the rest is a strange milieu of acceptance and silence.[/

 

Whatever the case its stupid and if you take the shows derpy I mean how thick can some be to try to get rid of a character due to who she is? Thats why I relate to her as I got that. Bear in mind its been years but still weighs heavily as it would the treatment towards women and people of a different color or creed. Its human nature and yet its utterly inhumane. Derpy nearly got killed off in a manner of speaking and I was told when I was a kid I shouldve died at birth. Ive met many women who have been abused by stupid guys as all they wanted was " there hole" thats why im feminist or should I say equalist. :-) I was dragged into these discussions since I was born as is the case with many others and I only wish to see us all for once actually being how we should be without so much stupidity in our lives. Hence equality and the right to live our lives without being judged for stupid reasons. Women have the exact same rights as us. Sorry for the novel by the way I just love to write with awful grammer lol

[Jennabun 1,578]

I was thinking about the Powerpuff Girls today since I watched it on Netflix. I feel like I'm really happy that I grew up with such an awesome show with feminist themes. Any other people know of cartoons or shows aimed at a younger audience with positive feminist themes? You know, besides PPG and MLP of course?

[The JLmle 5,474]

I was thinking about the Powerpuff Girls today since I watched it on Netflix. I feel like I'm really happy that I grew up with such an awesome show with feminist themes. Any other people know of cartoons or shows aimed at a younger audience with positive feminist themes? You know, besides PPG and MLP of course?

I'll be checking out other shows that are mentioned, but I can't come up with any right now... I do just wanna point out that Lauren Faust also worked on PPG, but I imagine you already knew that...

[Simon 4,554]

Okay everybody in this thread please take a moment to read this post.

 

The staff has discussed this thread, and we're faced with a pretty difficult situation. In the past few days, this thread has been home to arguments, troll posts, and tons of other problem comment. Normally, this thread would probably have been locked because it's devolved into arguments and frankly is causing the staff to have to spend way too much time babysitting it. But I want to keep this thread open. I really do.

 

So here's what we're going to do... this thread is going to stay open, and stay out of the debate pit. It will remain open for the time being, and remain as a thread for pro-feminism discussion only. But the moderators can't do this alone. In order for this thread to remain open, we need the people who want to keep this thread alive to help.

 

First of all, do not engage any problematic posts in discussion. Don't reply to them, and do not talk about those posts. Whether the post is an anti-feminist post, off-topic, or simply a post that's mean and making overly harsh comments about men, just leave it. Then I want you to hit the report button and let the staff know. If you can do this for us, then moderating this thread is as simple as deleting problem posts and addressing problems with individual users. If you continue to engage these people in discussion, however, we have to sort out which posts need to be deleted, and try and salvage the discussion which often has gone completely off topic.

 

In short, if you see anything which might be a problem post, hit the report button and then ignore it. Hopefully we'll be able to keep this thread open, and keep it a peaceful discussion.