The Maud Couple  

120 members have voted

  1. 2. Like or dislike?

    • Boulder: "Maud's boyfriend stinks." (I HATE IT! >__<)
    • Maud: "This episode's the most basic of jokes." (I dislike it.)
    • Pinkie: "Eh. I've seen better!" (…meh…)
    • Gummy: "Maud's boyfriend rocks." (I like it!)
    • Pinkie *to Gilda*: "Great! ^__^" (I LOVE IT! <3)


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On 4/1/2018 at 4:45 AM, Totally Lyra said:

Not gonna lie, this is the most I've cringed at an episode since I started the series. I'd give it a solid 1/10, only above 0 because it had a good Lyra scene in the first minute.

That was my favorite part of Maud Couple, too. :P

Also, I don't think this is the most I've cringed at an episode but I did feel like this ":dry:while watching the episode. 

Edited by Sparklefan1234
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Hopefully Maud getting a boyfriend will encourage Pinkie Pie to get a boyfriend too Cheese Sandwich would be a good match for Pinkie Pie If Hasbro ever takes that into effect

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I Hope Pinkie Pie doesn't get jealous of Maud getting a boyfriend knowing Pinkie Pie is still single

Edited by NathanW200

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This episode was awesome and definitely a good starting episode after the premiere as it helped further the development of Maud. I think Mudbriar is funny and fits Maud very well. I like how pinkie wasn’t so annoying in this episode compared to when she try to get starlight to connect with Maud forcibly. I love how we got to see the other pie sisters such as limestone and gravel I especially like limestone. This episode was pretty much a 9/10 for me as it was very good and near perfect.

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On 3/28/2018 at 12:48 PM, Kronos the Revenant said:

it would be hilarious if Maud's boyfriend was either a rock or, more hilariously, just as deadpan as she is.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D Both parts of my statement came true, sort of. The first part of my statement was at the part when Maud pointed to the rock and Pinkie thought the boyfriend WAS the rock. :D The second part was also true in that Mudbriar is just as deadpan as Maud. :D Also, am I the only one that got some Sheldon. Cooper vibes off of Mudbriar?

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Decent.  Okay, not great.

I'm sorry for being "one of those fans", but is Pinkie getting stupider as the show goes on?  She used to be weird, eccentric, but brilliant in her own, bizarre way, like in Swarm of the Century.  Now...she just seems like an airhead sometimes.  Did she really think that Maud and Mudbriar had nothing in common?  Could she really not see the similarities?!

I enjoyed it, though.  I was surprised that they had a character get a romantic interest.  Of course, with Maud and Mudbriar, perhaps I should put "romantic" in scarequotes.  Their relationship appears to be "romantic" in the same way that Sheldon and Amy's was "romantic" back in the early days.  Anyway, they've had two weddings on the show, but those relationships felt different.  Shadance was literally invented just for the wedding.  With no previous existence of them, it didn't feel the same as a character we've always known suddenly meeting a special somepony.  It was similar with Cranky and Mathilda.  When we first met them, they had already been a romantic item, and finally found each other again.  They were also characters that we had no investment in, and who didn't have any direct effect on the mane 6.  It feels wholly different to have a character we've known for a long time, and one directly related to one of the 6, find a romantic partner.  I honestly didn't expect them to do that on the show.  That said, I'm all for it.  I thought it was a pretty mature issue to tackle.  After all, relationships and friendships are often strained or even destroyed by romances.  I think Maud was a good choice for this, too.  I think it would be treading on extremely thin ice for them to ever give one of the mane 6 a romantic interest.  That could seriously screw up the dynamic of the show.  But it works just fine with Maud.  And I rather like the fact that the strangest pony who is something of an outcast ended up being the one to get a boyfriend first.  I thought back to how Maud wrote Pinkie that letter explaining that she's better off alone, and now she ended up being the one to find a special somepony.  That's a nice message.  Kinda makes me feel like there's even hope for me...:(

Maud's alicorn joke at the comedy club just killed me.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't use the ponified term, "coltfriend".  Perhaps they thought that kids might not pick up on what that means.

Love the new intro.  I'm surprised it doesn't bother me, considering how resistant I am to change.  I figured I'd be all upset by it, but I really like it.  Lots of great stuff in there, too.  I'm glad it still has the same song and feel, just with updated scenes.  There's probably a lot of cool easter eggs in there.  I did notice Big Mac and Sugar Belle on what appears to be a date.  Is that still going on?  I honestly thought that was just a one time deal for that episode.  I guess that makes another romance on the show, but somehow I doubt we'll ever hear of it again.  I always wanted Big Mac to date Marble Pie.

On 4/1/2018 at 9:32 AM, gingerninja666 said:

"You look as miserable as I feel all the time."

 

(cuddles Limey) God, that line, That's so sad.

Highlight of the episode.  High-light, right there!

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5 hours ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Decent.  Okay, not great.

I'm sorry for being "one of those fans", but is Pinkie getting stupider as the show goes on?  She used to be weird, eccentric, but brilliant in her own, bizarre way, like in Swarm of the Century.  Now...she just seems like an airhead sometimes.  Did she really think that Maud and Mudbriar had nothing in common?  Could she really not see the similarities?!

 

It was so pronounced that they had similarities that it felt more like a statement on how Pinkie sees Maud rather than calling her dumb for not noticing the similarities. Like her line about how Boulder has 10 times the personality Twiggy has.

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I dont like the pre-defined meanings of each vote as I was about to give it 3/5 but seeing Marble Pie my fave of the Pies instantly put it to 4/5. Why not more? Well, after the season 7 finale, movie and the premiere which despite the latter being 'low stakes' they did mention so many things from the movie that it made it exciting to see the followup, so after all these strong stories starting with a Pinkie episode feels much weaker than if it came after some other single episode. Since Pinkie episodes are lesser to me, it doesnt matter, I like Maud Pie she is funny thought there were better episodes with her.

The initial conversations between Pinkie and Maud are really funny, they made me chuckle, so I definitely dont give 4/5 because the BF was great, technically, he was boring not because of the way he talked but because Maud does this times better and the guy doesn't seem to impress with that behavior.

Pinkie was annoying a bit as usual overdramatic and too loud, so that also adds up to the ups and downs for this ep, but there Marble improved my opinion about it and it was interesting to see the rest Pies are all kind of smarter, good explanation with the crystals inside the stone. Nothing more to say, as a lesser ep after these past stories, just barely felt like anything but it is good to spend less time after spending some time watching and commenting the past episodes.

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I just realized that Mud Briar, despite being dense and hard to like according to Pinkie, never once insults her or says anything mean to her.

The closest is when he says he wont apologize for speaking with precision.

I'm serious too when I say he's likely autisitc. The insistent word phrasing in particular, that's something i've done a few times, but not nearly in the way he has. Though being a smidge Asperger-y myself, I wonder if I was two orders of magnitude more, I would be more like him...

The mind palace thing, btw, is a real thing. The brain is good at recalling things about locations, and so people can use that as a trick to recall other tidbits and info, putting it into the context of an imagined place.

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This episode could've used more meat as it was very bare-bones in what it tried to do. In a nutshell, Maud has a coltfriend boyfriend who is Maud's equivalent to Pinkie Pie's Cheese Sandwich. Pinkie Pie doesn't like Mudbriar or the whole arrangement because she's afraid he'll hog all the attention away from her. The conflict is resolved when Pinkie Pie reconciles with Mudbriar and accept the new state of affairs.

They did a pretty good job with making sure Mudbriar got on Pinkie Pie's nerves -- too good a job, in fact -- to the point he became rather unlikable. From what I remember about the first Maud Pie episode, she came across as pretty unfathomable but this guy comes across as having contempt for people who don't share his thought patterns. He has his own way of making sense of the world and you are going to hear about it whether you like it or not. The reason why Maud Pie is bearable is because her quirks add to the conversation while Mudbriar's quirks subtract from the conversation and replaces it with his own ideas -- that's just pretentious. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought his interjections of "technically" came across like nails scraping a chalkboard.

IMO, I think the whole personality friction between Pinkie and Mudbriar was unnecessary. Mudbriar's own character isn't the real source of the conflict but the very fact that he's Maud's boyfriend. I'm certain enough that things would have been problematic for Pinkie Pie had Maud's boyfriend turned out to be someone Pinkie already got along with -- maybe Cheese Sandwich? Just an example.

My favorite scene had to have been the Rock Farm scene with Limestone and Marble Pie. They should get their own episode.

 

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Due to the events of this episode...

I think I felt a great disturbance in the fandom as if millions of Maud ships (or shippers) cried out, and were suddenly silenced...

 

Lol I was waiting for an episode like this to make that joke! :P

In all serious though, I thought this episode was okay as far as the message and writing and everything went. There have been better ones.

 

I did really love how we got to see Marble and Limestone though! Marble is so cute!

 

Is it just me or do they both seem to have almost... 'Emo' hairstyles (or manestyles whatever)?

Limestone_Pie_looks_away_annoyed_S5E20-1-1.png.da4ee463d0057f1e6809e274554177ff.png

Limestone Pie kind of has the long side with bangs type.

marble-pie-my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-61.3.jpg.07d11f2bfee858989905736df691790a.jpgBut Marble Pie is on a whole different level of emo. She's totally got the long hair with part of it brushed over her eyes.
2081c2ce6f9ed4c35a672d16369f4c36--marble-pie-marbles.jpg.d70d36c9c0f90144179bfff5f3d85a40.jpgI mean some emo hairstyles are known for being very straight and sometimes purposely covering the eyes. I guess I just like to have this little conspiracy theory that Marble Pie is actually emo... :D

 

 

And hey! We got a new animation for the intro if you noticed!

The song however... *sigh*

 

So overall, I thought it was okay. Definitely not one of the better episodes though in my opinion. I'm okay with that though if we have the not so great episodes at the start of the season, and the best gets saved for last. Indeed, all's well that ends well.

 

Edited by Soren Peregrinator
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Overall, this is one of those episodes that I just have no desire to watch again, and where I come away from it annoyed with all the main characters involved. Pinkie displays her obnoxious hyperactivity and overblown reactions to things she doesn't want to hear, while Maud and now Mud do the usual deadpan socially-awkward shtick, which I've never cared for and I'm just tired of seeing at this point. I could barely find the motivation to even write about this episode, so I won't have many organized points to make about it.

One of the main traits that Mud displays similarly to Maud is that he has essentially no social awareness and puts forth essentially no effort in social interactions. He will interpret others' statements or questions literally, and apparently doesn't even try to understand the intent of or ordinary social convention behind others' attempts at making conversation. As I described for Maud back in "Rock Solid Friendship", when trying to converse with Mud, the burden seems to fall entirely on the other person to phrase things and ask things in exactly the right way in order to carry on even an ordinary conversation. While watching this behavior unfold, I can't help thinking that if Mud is not going to put any effort into having pleasant normal conversation with other people, then other people should just not bother making any effort to have conversation with him, either.

On another point, when Maud looks to a big rock after saying that Pinkie doesn't have to wait to meet Maud's boyfriend, Pinkie apparently considers it a totally serious possibility that Maud's boyfriend is a rock. But then, this is the same world where everyone apparently either really believes or feels obligated to go along with the idea that a rock is Maud's "pet", and that it goes by a name, does things under its own volition, has a personality, etc. So, of course, to add to this, Mud has an inanimate object "pet" too, and his stick is also supposed to be taken seriously as a living being that plays with a rock. In the real world, if a grown adult seriously believed that inanimate objects are living beings, or even sentient beings, and treated them that way, would the appropriate response be to affirm that and go along with it? Or might we consider that that person has serious mental issues and needs help?

Next, when Pinkie is stewing about how terrible Mud is and how he's supposedly nothing like Maud, Starlight's suggestion is that Pinkie needs to spend more time with him and find out what he and Pinkie have in common. But is that really necessary? If Pinkie doesn't like Mud, then why not just minimize her time spent with him or talking to him? If Mud isn't putting forth any effort to bond or just engage in normal conversation, and if Maud isn't insisting on Pinkie's doing those things with him, then why bother? I would just leave him alone and try to avoid him as much as possible. But of course, Pinkie probably feels some obligation to be friends with him, just as she felt the need to make friends with Cranky instead of just leaving him alone as he wanted to be.

My thinking toward this reflects how my siblings and I have treated each other's romantic relationships. Several of my siblings have (and have had) girlfriends/boyfriends, and they've seemed perfectly nice, but in most cases, the rest of us have only seen them or really talked to them a handful of times, and we're all okay with that. My siblings and I essentially take the view that your boyfriend/girlfriend is your business, and therefore, we would not demand to (nor would we feel any obligation or strong desire to) know all about him/her and spend more time with him/her. So I just really don't relate to these tropes of Pinkie ordering Maud to "tell me everything" about her boyfriend, Pinkie's saying that she "can't wait to meet him", Starlight's suggestion that Pinkie might "just need to spend more time with him" and "find out what you have in common", etc.

Finally, apparently a bunch of residents of Ponyville are attending a birthday party for Maud that she didn't even want and is deliberately not attending, and even shouting "Surprise!" to a presented cardboard cutout of her - since, you know, she isn't even there. Does this strike any of the attendees as being weird? Are any of the attendees stopping and thinking "Wait, what are we all really doing here?"? Maybe from a utilitarian perspective, if they have nothing better to do, then they might as well go get some free food and talk to other people that they would want to talk to anyway. But even with that perspective, I would still feel weird going to the party and therefore tacitly endorsing the whole concept.

And then what, Maud and Mud and Pinkie are all sitting and watching from afar, apparently with the party attendees' knowledge, if Starlight's wave is any indication? If Maud didn't want to attend a surprise party, then is she really enjoying watching one, either? If everyone is doing this just to placate Pinkie, why couldn't Pinkie just throw a party for some other random reason, as she's done many times before, while Maud and Mud just do their own thing that they really like to do?

Now for a few other miscellaneous observations:

After Maud's set, Pinkie gets up on stage and says "Isn't my sister Maud the most hilarious, entertaining, amazing comedian ever?", after which the audience bursts into laughter. But why? These same ponies were giving confused or annoyed looks at Pinkie's cackling during Maud's set, so if they're supposed to be laughing as a favor to Pinkie or something, why not do it then? Did they need to be specifically told by Pinkie that Maud is hilarious in order to get that they were supposed to laugh? Is Pinkie's question in itself supposed to be funny?

What was Maud even doing on the morning that she had previously agreed to hang out with Pinkie? Did Maud deliberately skip out on hanging out with Pinkie, and not even give Pinkie any reason for doing so? Might Maud expect Pinkie to freak out and possibly do something stupid, since Pinkie was already antsy about not hanging out enough, and since Pinkie has reacted similarly to such situations before? I don't know, that seemed rather inconsiderate for a caring and understanding sister to do.

Starlight says to Pinkie "Tell ya what. You take care of the cake, and I'll look for Maud". But didn't Pinkie say that she planned to go cake shopping with Maud? Wouldn't that mean that Pinkie wouldn't want to "take care of the cake" without Maud? But I don't know, Pinkie gives no objection to that plan.

Why doesn't the pony at the register react to Mud's silent standing and staring for several seconds? It seems pretty obviously awkward and inconvenient. So why wouldn't the pony at the register say something like "Do you need any further help?" or "Could you please step aside and allow me to serve the next customer?", rather than just silently staring back?

As soon as Mud is done with his business at the store, why doesn't Pinkie just take care of buying whatever she needs to buy? If some random person at the store is being stupid or obnoxious or whatever, I don't see any point in interrogating him. I would think the easiest thing to do would be just to try to ignore it and go about your own business.

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2 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Next, when Pinkie is stewing about how terrible Mud is and how he's supposedly nothing like Maud, Starlight's suggestion is that Pinkie needs to spend more time with him and find out what he and Pinkie have in common. But is that really necessary? If Pinkie doesn't like Mud, then why not just minimize her time spent with him or talking to him? If Mud isn't putting forth any effort to bond or just engage in normal conversation, and if Maud isn't insisting on Pinkie's doing those things with him, then why bother? I would just leave him alone and try to avoid him as much as possible. But of course, Pinkie probably feels some obligation to be friends with him, just as she felt the need to make friends with Cranky instead of just leaving him alone as he wanted to be.

Finally, apparently a bunch of residents of Ponyville are attending a birthday party for Maud that she didn't even want and is deliberately not attending, and even shouting "Surprise!" to a presented cardboard cutout of her - since, you know, she isn't even there. Does this strike any of the attendees as being weird? Are any of the attendees stopping and thinking "Wait, what are we all really doing here?"? Maybe from a utilitarian perspective, if they have nothing better to do, then they might as well go get some free food and talk to other people that they would want to talk to anyway. But even with that perspective, I would still feel weird going to the party and therefore tacitly endorsing the whole concept.

And then what, Maud and Mud and Pinkie are all sitting and watching from afar, apparently with the party attendees' knowledge, if Starlight's wave is any indication? If Maud didn't want to attend a surprise party, then is she really enjoying watching one, either? If everyone is doing this just to placate Pinkie, why couldn't Pinkie just throw a party for some other random reason, as she's done many times before, while Maud and Mud just do their own thing that they really like to do?

After Maud's set, Pinkie gets up on stage and says "Isn't my sister Maud the most hilarious, entertaining, amazing comedian ever?", after which the audience bursts into laughter. But why? These same ponies were giving confused or annoyed looks at Pinkie's cackling during Maud's set, so if they're supposed to be laughing as a favor to Pinkie or something, why not do it then? Did they need to be specifically told by Pinkie that Maud is hilarious in order to get that they were supposed to laugh? Is Pinkie's question in itself supposed to be funny?

On the "Starlight suggesting they hang out more" thing. It's because Pinkie normally gets along with everyone, and it's clearly important to her that she gets along with Maud's boyfriend. There's no reason for either of them to just give up on getting along right away. After 2 interactions.

The gag at the beginning is supposed to be "It's funny that Pinkie thinks Maud is funny." That's what the audience is laughing at I think. The idea that Maud's stand up was funny.

I got the impression that everyone knew Maud wasn't going to be at the party, and they were just there to have a good time and get free food and stuff. Maud wasn't doing it just to placate Pinkie. It genuinely makes Maud happy to see the effort Pinkie goes to for Maud's surprise parties.

Edited by gingerninja666
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8 hours ago, Soren Peregrinator said:

I think I felt a great disturbance in the fandom as if millions of Maud ships (or shippers) cried out, and were suddenly silenced...

:lol:  OMG, I was just rolling at this!  Genius!  I was thinking of making a joke about Maud shippers being upset, or fans for whom Maud is their waifu being upset, but I forgot.  But I wouldn't have been able to top this!  LOL!

 

Oh yes, and there was one other thing I meant to put in my main review that I forgot--even though this episode was mediocre, it did give us the greatest plot shot in the history of the show!

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Yeah, I know, I know--here comes the hate.  I'm ready:

gv53454c8b.gif.21a27a94d8df30cc883b6da84809ddc2.gif

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12 hours ago, Querch said:

This episode could've used more meat as it was very bare-bones in what it tried to do. In a nutshell, Maud has a coltfriend boyfriend who is Maud's equivalent to Pinkie Pie's Cheese Sandwich. Pinkie Pie doesn't like Mudbriar or the whole arrangement because she's afraid he'll hog all the attention away from her. The conflict is resolved when Pinkie Pie reconciles with Mudbriar and accept the new state of affairs.

They did a pretty good job with making sure Mudbriar got on Pinkie Pie's nerves -- too good a job, in fact -- to the point he became rather unlikable. From what I remember about the first Maud Pie episode, she came across as pretty unfathomable but this guy comes across as having contempt for people who don't share his thought patterns. He has his own way of making sense of the world and you are going to hear about it whether you like it or not. The reason why Maud Pie is bearable is because her quirks add to the conversation while Mudbriar's quirks subtract from the conversation and replaces it with his own ideas -- that's just pretentious. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought his interjections of "technically" came across like nails scraping a chalkboard.

IMO, I think the whole personality friction between Pinkie and Mudbriar was unnecessary. Mudbriar's own character isn't the real source of the conflict but the very fact that he's Maud's boyfriend. I'm certain enough that things would have been problematic for Pinkie Pie had Maud's boyfriend turned out to be someone Pinkie already got along with -- maybe Cheese Sandwich? Just an example.

My favorite scene had to have been the Rock Farm scene with Limestone and Marble Pie. They should get their own episode.

 

I caution against assuming malice for what could be explained with incompetence. I don't think he has any contempt for people who think differently, he just lacks the social skills to deal with differing world views. After all, he didn't show any disrespect towards Pinkie elsewhere.  

7 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

One of the main traits that Mud displays similarly to Maud is that he has essentially no social awareness and puts forth essentially no effort in social interactions. He will interpret others' statements or questions literally, and apparently doesn't even try to understand the intent of or ordinary social convention behind others' attempts at making conversation. As I described for Maud back in "Rock Solid Friendship", when trying to converse with Mud, the burden seems to fall entirely on the other person to phrase things and ask things in exactly the right way in order to carry on even an ordinary conversation. While watching this behavior unfold, I can't help thinking that if Mud is not going to put any effort into having pleasant normal conversation with other people, then other people should just not bother making any effort to have conversation with him, either.Next, when Pinkie is stewing about how terrible Mud is and how he's supposedly nothing like Maud, Starlight's suggestion is that Pinkie needs to spend more time with him and find out what he and Pinkie have in common. But is that really necessary? If Pinkie doesn't like Mud, then why not just minimize her time spent with him or talking to him? If Mud isn't putting forth any effort to bond or just engage in normal conversation, and if Maud isn't insisting on Pinkie's doing those things with him, then why bother? I would just leave him alone and try to avoid him as much as possible. But of course, Pinkie probably feels some obligation to be friends with him, just as she felt the need to make friends with Cranky instead of just leaving him alone as he wanted to be.

And THIS is the attitude that causes autistic become to stay socially stunted, in the real world people don't response to people like Maud like the ponies do, they respond like you. After much study, I've concluded the biggest obstacle to social acceptance of autistic people isn't any inherent disability; it's their peers and their toxic beliefs. People need social interaction in order to develop socially, and being denied it because peers are judgmental based on atypical social behavior just makes the situation worse. Something you don't realize is that looks like no effort to you takes significant for people on spectrum for a variety of reasons. Abandoning your half of the emotional burden of conversation in attempt at tit-for-a-tat just exacerbate their half of the load. Also, it's not exactly modeling good social behavior, often people on the spectrum don't even realize they're SUPPOSED to try to make things easier for the other speaker by expending considerable effort. Trying to coerce people into putting into putting in more effort using passive aggressive attacks only works if the person thinks you do (in which case they probably wouldn't be doing this in the first place!), if they don't, it's just going to leave them confused. I get it, it's not your responsibility to put in extra effort to facilitate the social development of people you're not invested in, but someone's got to do it, and by correcting these beliefs it's possible that such people will be met with less crippling judgement in the future. 

On a more minor note, I think Maud Pie does appreciate the effort Pinkie puts specifically into throwing parties for her, but she doesn't really enjoy being surprised or large crowds, which is why the arrangement in the episode carried out. 

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7 hours ago, Ganondox said:

And THIS is the attitude that causes autistic become to stay socially stunted, in the real world people don't response to people like Maud like the ponies do, they respond like you. After much study, I've concluded the biggest obstacle to social acceptance of autistic people isn't any inherent disability; it's their peers and their toxic beliefs. People need social interaction in order to develop socially,

I'd also argue that Maud has developed socially a bit over time as well. She was able to get on with Apple Bloom in Hearthbreakers.

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After re-watching the episode I enjoyed it much, much more. One thing I really liked was that the episode was full of clever dialogue and funny and subtle moments. There were very few dull moments. The dialogue was often fast-paced, fun and just kept going. And the few moments of silence were perfectly timed for comedic effect.

I liked the message, I liked that Mud Briar turned out to be a good guy and I liked how we saw Pinkie Pie from a different angle. Her "Technically, I... don't...care!" made me laugh harder than I should have. When her voice isn't as high-pitched, Pinkie Pie really has an amazing voice I can't stop listening to, and it really showed in this episode.

Really enjoyed the scene with Marble and Limestone as well. A good message wrapped in a clever episode. I enjoyed it.

Edited by JH24
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far better than I thought it'd be. Very funny, and Pinkie was pretty great. 

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On 4/3/2018 at 5:04 AM, Justin_Case001 said:

Maud's alicorn joke at the comedy club just killed me.

The funny thing about it for me was, I saw the punchline coming a mile away. :nom:

 

On 4/3/2018 at 8:07 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

I could barely find the motivation to even write about this episode,

I hear ya. I decided I had to dangle the stuff I liked about the episode like a carrot in front of me just so I could get through writing some comments on the dull parts first. XD

However, you managed to write a ton of stuff anyway. Not as much as usual, but far more than I could for this episode.... o_o

On 4/3/2018 at 8:07 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

So, of course, to add to this, Mud has an inanimate object "pet" too, and his stick is also supposed to be taken seriously as a living being that plays with a rock. In the real world, if a grown adult seriously believed that inanimate objects are living beings, or even sentient beings, and treated them that way, would the appropriate response be to affirm that and go along with it?

I found it strange that Pinkie reacted to Mud's pet stick the way she did. Pinkie has always seen the world a little differently, and I always thought that is why she treated Boulder as real. Plus there has been evidence that there was more to Boulder than meets the eye. We seemingly saw him take a bite of Maud's sandwich in her intro episode, and again last season he seemingly duplicated himself in the mirror pond.

What is not clear is whether we are supposed to take those events literally, or whether it is Maud pretending to be him in the camera cutaways and doing those actions for him when we're not looking?

Either way, I didn't expect Pinkie to have such a negative reaction to him having an inanimate pet object, but perhaps that is just the story showing the negative bias she had toward him early in their relationship?

On 4/3/2018 at 8:07 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

Finally, apparently a bunch of residents of Ponyville are attending a birthday party for Maud that she didn't even want and is deliberately not attending, and even shouting "Surprise!" to a presented cardboard cutout of her - since, you know, she isn't even there. Does this strike any of the attendees as being weird? Are any of the attendees stopping and thinking "Wait, what are we all really doing here?"?

I figured they thought it was just another case of "Pinkie being Pinkie." That is, Pinkie tells them she's holding a party for Maud, but she won't be showing up. They have probably attended so many Pinkie parties by now her setting up another one for her sister's birthday even when she's not going to be present is just par for the course. They all did really seem to be into it, however. Maybe she just explained she'd be watching from afar and they decided to be nice and show her how much they appreciate her by playing up their roles as partygoers?

In any case, it was a nice to to see a bunch of the town get together to pull this off for Maud.

On 4/3/2018 at 8:07 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

As soon as Mud is done with his business at the store, why doesn't Pinkie just take care of buying whatever she needs to buy? If some random person at the store is being stupid or obnoxious or whatever, I don't see any point in interrogating him. I would think the easiest thing to do would be just to try to ignore it and go about your own business.

It seems pony stores (some of them, anyway) are like computer RPGs and you can only buy the goods you want by interacting with the store owner? :)

On 4/3/2018 at 8:07 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

Why doesn't the pony at the register react to Mud's silent standing and staring for several seconds? It seems pretty obviously awkward and inconvenient. So why wouldn't the pony at the register say something like "Do you need any further help?" or "Could you please step aside and allow me to serve the next customer?", rather than just silently staring back?

Yeah that's one of the reasons I found that scene so tedious to sit through. The "joke" only works by having the third party in the exchange stay silent.

On 4/3/2018 at 8:07 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

After Maud's set, Pinkie gets up on stage and says "Isn't my sister Maud the most hilarious, entertaining, amazing comedian ever?", after which the audience bursts into laughter. But why?

I guess they thought she was being facetious? At least that was my take on their laughter - that she was poking fun at her sister to lighten the mood again. But for me that even joke felt flat, too.

Heh, apologies to anyone for sounding like Twilight in "What About Discord" for those last two comments. :sunny: Roll them eyes, Spike!

 

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49 minutes ago, Truffles said:

I hear ya. I decided I had to dangle the stuff I liked about the episode like a carrot in front of me just so I could get through writing some comments on the dull parts first. XD

However, you managed to write a ton of stuff anyway. Not as much as usual, but far more than I could for this episode.... o_o

Yeah, I might have been a bit more down than usual about this episode. I know I often don't write much about the positives of episodes, but I agree with your earlier post that the Mane Six "opposite" talking heads were amusing, and it was entertaining to see Limestone and Marble cheering Pinkie up.

Truth be told, I've been kind of run down in real life recently, too. I passed my PhD defense (in polymer engineering) a couple of weeks ago, but my committee said that I needed more data in my written dissertation, so I've been really busy this past couple of weeks compiling over 300 pages of tables of data from my research to add to it. I have to get my dissertation finalized, signed off on, and submitted in the next couple of weeks, before the end-of-semester deadline. After that, though, I'll have to do a few other administrative things, but then I'll finally earn my degree. Of course, then I'll have to start seriously looking for a job, but I'll worry about that when I get to it.

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9 hours ago, Truffles said:
Quote

I found it strange that Pinkie reacted to Mud's pet stick the way she did. Pinkie has always seen the world a little differently, and I always thought that is why she treated Boulder as real. Plus there has been evidence that there was more to Boulder than meets the eye. We seemingly saw him take a bite of Maud's sandwich in her intro episode, and again last season he seemingly duplicated himself in the mirror pond.

What is not clear is whether we are supposed to take those events literally, or whether it is Maud pretending to be him in the camera cutaways and doing those actions for him when we're not looking?

Either way, I didn't expect Pinkie to have such a negative reaction to him having an inanimate pet object, but perhaps that is just the story showing the negative bias she had toward him early in their relationship?

I think you nailed it in the last sentence. Pinkie is looking at Maud through sister eyes. Add to it she was already annoyed with Mud Briar, and the idea that Maud was spending time with him out of all ponies - instead of her - and it makes sense she was biased towards him.

Quote

Yeah that's one of the reasons I found that scene so tedious to sit through. The "joke" only works by having the third party in the exchange stay silent.

Personally, this was one scene I was willing to "go along with." I just imagine the pony behind the register was so surprised she didn't know how to react. That kind of moment where you just stare at someone when you don't know what to say, where you think "is this really happening?" and know that if you do say something it wouldn't make a difference. She probably was so "done" with it after Pinkie shoved him out that she really wanted to take that break. (And probably didn't want to deal with Pinkie at that time either)

=========================================================

Looking back, I think what "sold" this episode for me was Mud Briar. For some reason, I found him endearing the first moment he appeared, and I was worried he would be the classic bad pony who tries to drive a wedge between Pinkie and Maud. I was glad to see that wasn't the case and that in the end it was Pinkie who was in the wrong.

Mud Briar isn't a bad guy, he just sees and reacts to things differently. He's honest and very precise in what he does. I think what really convinced me of his character was when he said "See you later" to Pinkie when she was running away. It felt inappropriate at first, but it made me realize after the episode that it actually means a lot. It's his way of saying that he does care and that he wants to see Pinkie again. 

 

Edited by JH24
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19 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Truth be told, I've been kind of run down in real life recently, too. I passed my PhD defense (in polymer engineering) a couple of weeks ago, but my committee said that I needed more data in my written dissertation, so I've been really busy this past couple of weeks compiling over 300 pages of tables of data from my research to add to it.

Congrats on at least getting the first half of your thesis done! I don't envy you for the rest of the work, especially having to distill a bunch of data. Ugh. I have enough trouble just doing my own taxes. So many forms when you're self-employed and have investment income thrown into all that mess. =P

15 hours ago, JH24 said:

For some reason, I found him endearing the first moment he appeared, and I was worried he would be the classic bad pony who tries to drive a wedge between Pinkie and Maud. I was glad to see that wasn't the case and that in the end it was Pinkie who was in the wrong.

I was relieved he wasn't a typical antagonist as well, so I will give the episode that. He was (perhaps) inadvertently annoying to Pinkie because of his literal responses to every interaction with her. In fact, I can relate. His catchphrase of starting most sentences with "technically" reminded me very much of how I sometimes write posts here on this forum, starting a sentence where I disagree with something with a "Well, actually." That's pretty much the same thing as starting with "technically," (and just as annoying, I suppose X3 ) and is something I've tried to avoid when I can catch myself doing it.

I suppose the one thing that allows me to take Pinkie's side is he doesn't see to have an "off" switch where he can turn the literalness off and speak about something on an emotional level. I think that's one of the main things that drives her crazy (in addition to his stealing her time away from her sister) since she sees things from such an opposite point of view.

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On 4/1/2018 at 3:05 PM, Jeric said:

People say they don't like know-it-all correcting types ... except ... House, Sherlock, Iron Man, and others beg to differ. Perhaps people don't like those characters, but damn they sure can't stop watching when they are on screen. Howard Stern effect perhaps?

It might just be that different people are saying those things.

... That, and there's a bit of charm to House that I don't think Mudbriar really has.

On 4/1/2018 at 4:19 PM, Ganondox said:

That's not what is going on here though. It might come across as condescending to you, but that's because you're approaching it from a particular mindset that doesn't match Mud's. Thinking Maud doesn't know something doesn't mean he thinks he's smarter than her, just more knowledgeable in a particular area. I think what it really comes down to is you read into things, while Mud just takes things at face value, and as such your attempts at reading into Mud's behavior completely fail as he's not playing the same metagame that you are.

I know that tactic you are referring to, but Mud isn't doing that. The difference between being pedantic as a way to manipulate arguments and because the person is genuinely disturbed by the inaccuracies subtle, but important. The clearest way to tell the difference is the context, and by that I mean the broader context, not the immediate context which you focused on. First, Mud had no motive for trying to manipulate the argument and his attempts actually just hurt him, so construing it as a deliberate manipulation attempt doesn't make sense. On the other side, the episode clearly established how much he cares about precisions in language that most people don't care about before he actually engaged in any of that behavior. I think the reason you're getting the impression he was dismissing the other things Pinkie said was because for most the exchanges, Mud felt he didn't NEED to address them, as they were correct and he understood what she meant, so he could let them by without comment. You need to understand that Mud is approaching social interaction with fundamentally different beliefs than you do.  

Just because you come up with something that fits your model doesn't mean this fits your model. Just because someone is doing something similar on youtube to be a jerk doesn't mean that IRL someone might be doing something else for a very different reason. A thing isn't something else just because there is a superficial resemblance, you need to address all possible explanations and take the most likely one. It appears the abusive side is the only explanation you are familiar with as the more likely explanation is so alien to you, but it's not alien to me. I used to do the same crap as Mud back when I was around 12, before I realized how obnoxious other people found it for one, but more importantly how wrongly you interpret said behavior. I'm not just saying though because I sympathize with Mud as I used to empathize with him, but because in the context of the episode the more sympathetic interpretation is the only one that makes sense for the writers to employ. 

One last thing to add, Mud is supposed to come across as prick at first, as the audience is supposed to empathize with Pinkie Pie. At the same time, the episode tries to retroactively justify his behavior, so you can see where Pinkie Pie was in the wrong. Over time, the episode subtly but deliberately builds up details that show that Mud is more caring than he initially appears. It a way of illustrating the whole theme of the episode, that the superficial impressions of someone doesn't reflect who they really are. You're still approaching him as a rock rather than a geode, but that's understandable as it takes a lot of time and effort to understand people as they really are, especially someone much different from you, even if they are only fictional. 

You're coming at my replies with a presumption of lacking experience with this behavior. I can assure you that it wouldn't rub me the wrong way so much if I didn't have experience with it.

I'm aware that is what the episode is attempting to paint his actions as, that he doesn't address it because he doesn't feel the need to. I've had that happen to me, and had it explained to me, in multiple conversations before. But that's the issue - he doesn't attempt to explain that even though he's smart enough to know that Pinkie Pie is distressed by that particular lack of communication.

I know what the episode is trying to do. I just don't think the way it does it is enjoyable or relatable to me. Yes, I have spoken to people who behave like this in real life. I was that person, at one point. But none of those times did any of us behave exactly like that. There's something missing to Mudbriar that made those interactions different.

I think it's the lack of apologeticism for his behavior, or a lack of attempting to properly explain it. In every scenario I've been in that had something similar to this in real life, none of them were that socially inept to not pick up that their behavior was causing distress on my end, or my behavior was causing distress on theirs, and it always wound up with an explanation or an apology, neither of which Mudbriar gives at any point in the episode. That's also why someone else mentioned a "lack of effort" to socialize properly - that might be why that person is perceiving it that way, because Mudbriar didn't really attempt to meet Pinkie Pie half-way at all. The onus was always on Pinkie Pie, but socializing is and should always be a collaborative effort.

I know what you're attempting to say, and it's that I shouldn't presume intentions. Fair enough. I try to give the benefit of the doubt for my social interactions in person. But there can be a limit to that, no matter how saintly of a person I am, and I could certainly apply that for every potentially hurtful behavior. That's why you...you know, talk those behaviors out?

But you know, perhaps you're right that I'm letting some personal bias in this situation cloud my judgment. Maybe I'm seeing my own horrible behavior in Mud and not giving him a proper chance that way. I know I feel that way when I read excerpts teens online post that I would have too when I was a teen that I cringe at now. :P

On 4/4/2018 at 1:41 AM, Ganondox said:

And THIS is the attitude that causes autistic become to stay socially stunted, in the real world people don't response to people like Maud like the ponies do, they respond like you. After much study, I've concluded the biggest obstacle to social acceptance of autistic people isn't any inherent disability; it's their peers and their toxic beliefs. People need social interaction in order to develop socially, and being denied it because peers are judgmental based on atypical social behavior just makes the situation worse. Something you don't realize is that looks like no effort to you takes significant for people on spectrum for a variety of reasons. Abandoning your half of the emotional burden of conversation in attempt at tit-for-a-tat just exacerbate their half of the load. Also, it's not exactly modeling good social behavior, often people on the spectrum don't even realize they're SUPPOSED to try to make things easier for the other speaker by expending considerable effort. Trying to coerce people into putting into putting in more effort using passive aggressive attacks only works if the person thinks you do (in which case they probably wouldn't be doing this in the first place!), if they don't, it's just going to leave them confused. I get it, it's not your responsibility to put in extra effort to facilitate the social development of people you're not invested in, but someone's got to do it, and by correcting these beliefs it's possible that such people will be met with less crippling judgement in the future. 

Speaking as an actual autistic person, it's really not that much effort to explain my behaviors and actions. In fact, I kind of enjoy clearing up misconceptions. The feeling afterward when it clicks for people is a really nice feeling. And to say that autism isn't an obstacle is baffling to me from my own personal experiences. It most certainly is an obstacle. It impedes on basic communication, and not just in the way this episode demonstrates, either. It makes it really hard to express emotion, which is paramount to a good relationship - after all, other people need to know how I'm feeling to know how to cater to it, but I have a hard time even figuring out what I'm feeling half the time, let alone expressing it to other people. It led to me being unable to properly modulate my emotions when I was younger, too, which led to meltdowns, so I'd even meltdown with basic communication with other people. I don't think it's entirely on them if I'm reacting so horribly to every little thing they do, yeah? And what are they supposed to do if I'll stonewall and not even talk to them? I'm giving them absolutely nothing to work with, and that's entirely from my actions, not theirs.

But yes, you are correct on one thing: being passive aggressive is not going to help, mainly because I have no fucking clue what I'm supposed to do with passive aggression. But neither is remaining firm on the fact that don't need to change, the world around me does. It's not only an unrealistic expectation, but it's an entitled one, to boot. I have gained much more social ground and gotten way better at controlling how I feel and react to situations and perceive them when I stopped trying to point fingers and simply started thinking of solutions to make social situations smoother. When I blamed society, I saw horrible behavior in everyone around me. When I blamed myself, I felt terrible. (I still struggle with the latter.) It's better not to even bother and to instead just think about what I can do to better a given situation.

Personally, I don't think any person should feel obligated to be in a situation that they're not comfortable with just for someone else's sake. I'd much rather someone turn me away and not talk to me anymore if they don't like my attitude than pretend that they're okay with it. I would feel, and have felt, extremely uncomfortable if someone was putting up with something I was doing just because "you're autistic, so you don't know any better". No, please, call out behaviors in me that you don't like, or alternatively don't speak to me. No one is supposed to be my mental health seminar, I have therapists and books for that.

I'm sure there are other autistic people who relate to their autism in a different way than me, and that's fine, but this is how I feel about it.

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18 hours ago, Scootaloved said:

It might just be that different people are saying those things.

... That, and there's a bit of charm to House that I don't think Mudbriar really has.

You're coming at my replies with a presumption of lacking experience with this behavior. I can assure you that it wouldn't rub me the wrong way so much if I didn't have experience with it.

I'm aware that is what the episode is attempting to paint his actions as, that he doesn't address it because he doesn't feel the need to. I've had that happen to me, and had it explained to me, in multiple conversations before. But that's the issue - he doesn't attempt to explain that even though he's smart enough to know that Pinkie Pie is distressed by that particular lack of communication.

I know what the episode is trying to do. I just don't think the way it does it is enjoyable or relatable to me. Yes, I have spoken to people who behave like this in real life. I was that person, at one point. But none of those times did any of us behave exactly like that. There's something missing to Mudbriar that made those interactions different.

I think it's the lack of apologeticism for his behavior, or a lack of attempting to properly explain it. In every scenario I've been in that had something similar to this in real life, none of them were that socially inept to not pick up that their behavior was causing distress on my end, or my behavior was causing distress on theirs, and it always wound up with an explanation or an apology, neither of which Mudbriar gives at any point in the episode. That's also why someone else mentioned a "lack of effort" to socialize properly - that might be why that person is perceiving it that way, because Mudbriar didn't really attempt to meet Pinkie Pie half-way at all. The onus was always on Pinkie Pie, but socializing is and should always be a collaborative effort.

I know what you're attempting to say, and it's that I shouldn't presume intentions. Fair enough. I try to give the benefit of the doubt for my social interactions in person. But there can be a limit to that, no matter how saintly of a person I am, and I could certainly apply that for every potentially hurtful behavior. That's why you...you know, talk those behaviors out?

But you know, perhaps you're right that I'm letting some personal bias in this situation cloud my judgment. Maybe I'm seeing my own horrible behavior in Mud and not giving him a proper chance that way. I know I feel that way when I read excerpts teens online post that I would have too when I was a teen that I cringe at now. :P

Speaking as an actual autistic person, it's really not that much effort to explain my behaviors and actions. In fact, I kind of enjoy clearing up misconceptions. The feeling afterward when it clicks for people is a really nice feeling. And to say that autism isn't an obstacle is baffling to me from my own personal experiences. It most certainly is an obstacle. It impedes on basic communication, and not just in the way this episode demonstrates, either. It makes it really hard to express emotion, which is paramount to a good relationship - after all, other people need to know how I'm feeling to know how to cater to it, but I have a hard time even figuring out what I'm feeling half the time, let alone expressing it to other people. It led to me being unable to properly modulate my emotions when I was younger, too, which led to meltdowns, so I'd even meltdown with basic communication with other people. I don't think it's entirely on them if I'm reacting so horribly to every little thing they do, yeah? And what are they supposed to do if I'll stonewall and not even talk to them? I'm giving them absolutely nothing to work with, and that's entirely from my actions, not theirs.

But yes, you are correct on one thing: being passive aggressive is not going to help, mainly because I have no fucking clue what I'm supposed to do with passive aggression. But neither is remaining firm on the fact that don't need to change, the world around me does. It's not only an unrealistic expectation, but it's an entitled one, to boot. I have gained much more social ground and gotten way better at controlling how I feel and react to situations and perceive them when I stopped trying to point fingers and simply started thinking of solutions to make social situations smoother. When I blamed society, I saw horrible behavior in everyone around me. When I blamed myself, I felt terrible. (I still struggle with the latter.) It's better not to even bother and to instead just think about what I can do to better a given situation.

Personally, I don't think any person should feel obligated to be in a situation that they're not comfortable with just for someone else's sake. I'd much rather someone turn me away and not talk to me anymore if they don't like my attitude than pretend that they're okay with it. I would feel, and have felt, extremely uncomfortable if someone was putting up with something I was doing just because "you're autistic, so you don't know any better". No, please, call out behaviors in me that you don't like, or alternatively don't speak to me. No one is supposed to be my mental health seminar, I have therapists and books for that.

I'm sure there are other autistic people who relate to their autism in a different way than me, and that's fine, but this is how I feel about it.

It's a tv episode, not real life. People act differently in fiction than they do in reality due to differences in the way reality and fiction function. I do agree with you that Mud Briar was unrealistically socially inept, but it was exaggerated in order to make a point. Saying that the show failed to effectively explain his behavior is a valid complaint, but I was just pointing the show did leave sufficient evidence to explain it, even if it was too subtle to be picked up.  Also, it appeared you were making a different argument based on your previous posts, where you were arguing he was being deliberately abusive rather than just annoying.

Talking those behaviors out is exactly what should be done, you are right, and I'm speaking for Mud here as being a cartoon character in an episode that already aired he can't exactly elaborate on his own motivations anymore than he already has. Do you want to know what isn't talking those behaviors out? Putting less effort into engaging because you perceive someone as not putting enough in. That's the aspect of Music Fan's attitude that I was criticizing. I'm not expecting anyone to be saintly, I'm just trying to spread awareness so we can try a little harder and then maybe things will become a little better. 

For the record, I did not mean to imply that Mud's behavior should not change, I actually meant the exact opposite. What I was saying is that in practice, his behavior isn't *going* to change if treated in a such a manner in response. I wasn't directly that paragraph to people like Mud, but people judging people like Mud. If I were speaking to Mud, I would tell him to cut that crap out because no one cares and it just annoys them, among other things. 

Regarding the autism specific stuff, a few things. First, I'm also on the spectrum, but I don't focus on that because I'm just one person and my experience is my own, and I have my own biases. Instead, I focus on what I know from studying psychology at college as well as other research I've done (it's especially important to do outside research because all the materials are out of date with the rapid rate of research). I then use my own experience, both with myself and with the countless autistic people I know both personally and professionally, to critically evaluate that information to see if it actually makes any sense when compared with reality, or if the theory is subject to some sort of systemic bias.

"And to say that autism isn't an obstacle is baffling to me from my own personal experiences." I did not say this. This is what I actually said: "After much study, I've concluded the biggest obstacle to social acceptance of autistic people isn't any inherent disability; it's their peers and their toxic beliefs." I'm not saying any disability aspects aren't obstacles, just that when it comes to social acceptance, they are much easier to overcome than the problems ingrained into society itself. This isn't just idle theorizing, it's based on empirical evidence. For example, paradoxically people on the spectrum are more likely to be employed if they have an intellectual disability as well. The most reasonable explanation for this is that people are more understanding of intellectual disabilities than they are of autism alone, and this reasoning is supported when you look into the hiring process independent of the discussion of autism. Meanwhile, all the factors you listed either could be accommodated with little material cost (the hardest part is just getting people to comply with them because society is stuck in it's ways) or you admitted they are no longer actually issues for you anymore.

Do you want to know what's a more unrealistic expectation than society to change for disabled people? Expecting disabled people to change to stop being disabled. If a disabled person could just change without some sort of major intervention, they wouldn't be disabled in the first place. Society, meanwhile, can and has changed in order to more accommodating to disability (just look around any public building and you can see countless examples such as braille, ramps, ect.), and changes continue to occur. This isn't to say all the burden should be placed be placed on society, but it should be placed on those who can bear. For example, autistic people can and should be taught social skills, they can learned and a lack of social skills is a problem by no means unique to autistic people. However, autistic people would better learn social skills if their attempts at engaging in social interaction weren't so frequently spurned, studies have been been conducted that show that often times it really is the peers at fault, not the autistic child. Also, others things can't really be fixed. Creating a sensory sensitive environment is much more effective than sensory integration therapy. Lastly, the term burden is a bit of misnomer, as changing society to be more accommodating doesn't just help autistic, it's beneficial for all of society. It helps autistic people to be more productive, and when they are productive they tend to be REALLY productive. It also means less money would need to devoted to therapies of dubious efficiency as well as lifetime support services. And all that's just from an economic standpoint. The way I see it, society is currently in an undesirable state of equilibrium, but this can be changed with significant effort. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ganondox said:

It's a tv episode, not real life. People act differently in fiction than they do in reality due to differences in the way reality and fiction function. I do agree with you that Mud Briar was unrealistically socially inept, but it was exaggerated in order to make a point. Saying that the show failed to effectively explain his behavior is a valid complaint, but I was just pointing the show did leave sufficient evidence to explain it, even if it was too subtle to be picked up.  Also, it appeared you were making a different argument based on your previous posts, where you were arguing he was being deliberately abusive rather than just annoying.

Fair enough. You are right that it would be exaggerated for the sake of a cartoon since it would enhance the comedy/make it easier for kids to pick up. I'm probably just bringing too much personal baggage into the episode, which is something I try not to do when watching normally.

Also, sorry about that, that's lack of clarity on my part. I don't think the intention was that he was deliberately abusive. I just think that he came off that way as a result of how he was being written, based on that lack of realism factor, and that it was hard for me to see his actions as not being so because of that. So yeah, you pretty much phrased my complaint in a better way than I did in my previous replies. While I stand by that complaint for my initial reaction, I can concede that personal bias probably plays something of a factor into why it felt like that to me.

1 hour ago, Ganondox said:

Talking those behaviors out is exactly what should be done, you are right, and I'm speaking for Mud here as being a cartoon character in an episode that already aired he can't exactly elaborate on his own motivations anymore than he already has. Do you want to know what isn't talking those behaviors out? Putting less effort into engaging because you perceive someone as not putting enough in. That's the aspect of Music Fan's attitude that I was criticizing. I'm not expecting anyone to be saintly, I'm just trying to spread awareness so we can try a little harder and then maybe things will become a little better. 

I can understand that. There is definitely a perception that people don't try certain things just because they're not as competent at it from the get-go. In a real world situation, that effort is usually communicated through an explanation of that behavior from someone who acts similarly to Mud.

I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. At the same time, I don't think anyone is owed anyone else's time. Perhaps that's why I'm coming off the way I am in my replies.

1 hour ago, Ganondox said:

Do you want to know what's a more unrealistic expectation than society to change for disabled people? Expecting disabled people to change to stop being disabled. If a disabled person could just change without some sort of major intervention, they wouldn't be disabled in the first place. Society, meanwhile, can and has changed in order to more accommodating to disability (just look around any public building and you can see countless examples such as braille, ramps, ect.), and changes continue to occur. This isn't to say all the burden should be placed be placed on society, but it should be placed on those who can bear. For example, autistic people can and should be taught social skills, they can learned and a lack of social skills is a problem by no means unique to autistic people. However, autistic people would better learn social skills if their attempts at engaging in social interaction weren't so frequently spurned, studies have been been conducted that show that often times it really is the peers at fault, not the autistic child. Also, others things can't really be fixed. Creating a sensory sensitive environment is much more effective than sensory integration therapy. Lastly, the term burden is a bit of misnomer, as changing society to be more accommodating doesn't just help autistic, it's beneficial for all of society. It helps autistic people to be more productive, and when they are productive they tend to be REALLY productive. It also means less money would need to devoted to therapies of dubious efficiency as well as lifetime support services. And all that's just from an economic standpoint. The way I see it, society is currently in an undesirable state of equilibrium, but this can be changed with significant effort. 

I don't mean to say that there can't be accommodation in society in general, but rather that you can't expect accommodation much on an individual level. Having support with getting a career or taking classes to better help develop social skills is one thing , but I really can't expect my friends to take care of my mental health, that's help I should be reaching out for on my own. Of course, I'm definitely someone who thinks we should all be more understanding, or at least attempt to be understanding toward each other, so I certainly agree with and get that part, and in my individual case, I would definitely be more likely to give a real person the time of day even if their disposition is grating to me. I think I'm just concerned that this can go from simply offering a hand to those who need it, into making people feel obligated and guilty for struggles that other people go through that aren't their responsibility.

And I also know that just because we would prefer that everyone be understanding, doesn't mean they actually will attempt to be. There are some people out there who simply don't care about stuff like this, and a part of me can't really blame them.

Also, the issue with comparing this to changes that are made to accommodate the physically disabled is... Well, to be frank, mental illness and physical disability are not treated the same and perhaps this is pessimistic for me to say, but I don't anticipate they ever will be. I know I'm not going to be taken as seriously as someone in a wheelchair. I have already seen countless people trying to discredit the effect that autism actually has on people. Hell, even those who want to help do so in misguided ways. Physical disability, on the other hand, is much easier to understand and much more tangible. You can't deny someone is having trouble walking or needs a wheelchair, you can literally see it. That's not to say they don't have their own societal challenges, but it's unlikely they receive the same dismissal.

I don't entertain the idea that people with disabilities can stop being disabled, that's obviously ridiculous. Our brains are wired differently, and there's nothing we can do to change that. I guess I've just grown to the idea that all I can do is change myself. Plus, I hate being overly preachy. If someone doesn't want to spend their time attempting to understand me, why should I waste my time attempting to get them to understand?

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2 hours ago, Scootaloved said:

Fair enough. You are right that it would be exaggerated for the sake of a cartoon since it would enhance the comedy/make it easier for kids to pick up. I'm probably just bringing too much personal baggage into the episode, which is something I try not to do when watching normally.

Also, sorry about that, that's lack of clarity on my part. I don't think the intention was that he was deliberately abusive. I just think that he came off that way as a result of how he was being written, based on that lack of realism factor, and that it was hard for me to see his actions as not being so because of that. So yeah, you pretty much phrased my complaint in a better way than I did in my previous replies. While I stand by that complaint for my initial reaction, I can concede that personal bias probably plays something of a factor into why it felt like that to me.

I can understand that. There is definitely a perception that people don't try certain things just because they're not as competent at it from the get-go. In a real world situation, that effort is usually communicated through an explanation of that behavior from someone who acts similarly to Mud.

I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. At the same time, I don't think anyone is owed anyone else's time. Perhaps that's why I'm coming off the way I am in my replies.

I don't mean to say that there can't be accommodation in society in general, but rather that you can't expect accommodation much on an individual level. Having support with getting a career or taking classes to better help develop social skills is one thing , but I really can't expect my friends to take care of my mental health, that's help I should be reaching out for on my own. Of course, I'm definitely someone who thinks we should all be more understanding, or at least attempt to be understanding toward each other, so I certainly agree with and get that part, and in my individual case, I would definitely be more likely to give a real person the time of day even if their disposition is grating to me. I think I'm just concerned that this can go from simply offering a hand to those who need it, into making people feel obligated and guilty for struggles that other people go through that aren't their responsibility.

And I also know that just because we would prefer that everyone be understanding, doesn't mean they actually will attempt to be. There are some people out there who simply don't care about stuff like this, and a part of me can't really blame them.

Also, the issue with comparing this to changes that are made to accommodate the physically disabled is... Well, to be frank, mental illness and physical disability are not treated the same and perhaps this is pessimistic for me to say, but I don't anticipate they ever will be. I know I'm not going to be taken as seriously as someone in a wheelchair. I have already seen countless people trying to discredit the effect that autism actually has on people. Hell, even those who want to help do so in misguided ways. Physical disability, on the other hand, is much easier to understand and much more tangible. You can't deny someone is having trouble walking or needs a wheelchair, you can literally see it. That's not to say they don't have their own societal challenges, but it's unlikely they receive the same dismissal.

I don't entertain the idea that people with disabilities can stop being disabled, that's obviously ridiculous. Our brains are wired differently, and there's nothing we can do to change that. I guess I've just grown to the idea that all I can do is change myself. Plus, I hate being overly preachy. If someone doesn't want to spend their time attempting to understand me, why should I waste my time attempting to get them to understand?

I’m just going to say that things ARE changing, if you look at how things were in the past you can see how drastically things have already changed. And you’re right, you can only change yourself, but other people can chang themselves too. I think that most people want things to improve, they are just ignorant to what they need to do. 

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