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Queen Chrysalis: Truly evil or just misunderstood?


Inkfeather

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My interpretation of OP post: "I want a Discord-Chrysalis shipfic"

 

I don't believe Chrysalis to be truly evil, but its a stretch to say she was good or even acting in a morally neutral manner, as some posters already stated, she relished the imprisonment of Cadence and others, and the destruction of Canterlot. However if you get into the psychology, you can infer that Chrysalis has an inferiority complex (drawing from This Day Aria lyrics), and can further infer that she did suffer much during her existence, so you could sympathize with the character to a degree.

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Chrysalis is not evil, nor misunderstood. My headcanon is that the changelings share a common hive mind. That means Chrysalis isn't an individual, nor is any of her subjects. She merely is the voice of her swarm. Taking that into account, the song can be undestood as the desire of the changeling swarm to reign supreme over Equestria and the rest of the world, feeding upon any love there is. For me, changelings don't have emotions, and that's why they hunger for them, to fill a void that will never be full. I don't think Chrysalis can be accounted as evil or misunderstood, asI said before. They are merely hungry. That hurts ponies? Well, it's the predator/prey relationship. Deal with that.

 

Honestly, I think Nightmare Moon was more evil than Chrysalis.

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In my opinion, she isn't evil, although I view the situation differently than you. As Shefira said, she never wanted to actually "love" somepony, but instead feed off ponies' love for the nourishment of her kind. This is where she looks evil to everypony, when she's really trying to keep her species alive. It's like lions to zebras, or mosquitoes to a human's blood. Now I haven't gone through the other replies to this thread, but you forget that she also stated "No I do not love the groom, in my heart there is no room." Nopony knows what's filling the Queen's heart so much that she cannot allow love, but my inference is that she's dedicated to keeping her starved species alive.

Although I don't view her as evil, I do however view her as physcologically deranged. In "This Day Aria," we view her screaming and opening her eyes as wide as they can go, with her pupils very small. Also, when imprisoning Twilight, she does look abnormally strange in behavior when summoning the green flames. This all shows us how crazy she can be, which again I guess is from her determination to keep her changelings alive. Strangely, however, I only noticed she was crazy when she was impersonating Princess Cadence. When she revealed her true form and henceforth, she was very calm and collected I noticed, except for the "This Day Aria; Reprise" scene.

Doesn't seem evil, just physcologically troubled and determined to keep her kind alive.

 

P.S She never intended to kill anypony. Just control them. In the reprise of "This Day Aria," "Everypony I'll soon control, every stallion there at hold."

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If you dont mind its "Cadance"

 

According to every scholastic source I can find, Cadenza is a musical term. So is Cadence (Cadenza considered the Italian version of the English Cadence). Nowhere is Cadance an actual word, not that all ponies are named after 'actual words.'

 

Personally, I'll only accept the "Cadance" spelling if that is how it is published by offical MLP things, Hub, etc. MLP wiki doesn't count. I just don't understand why they'd go from her original Cadenza to throw in a random extra "a" that isn't even pronounced in English as an "a" to make a word that isn't a word. Cadence just makes sense, plus when spoken, the "e" is the proper vowel sound.

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According to every scholastic source I can find, Cadenza is a musical term. So is Cadence (Cadenza considered the Italian version of the English Cadence). Nowhere is Cadance an actual word, not that all ponies are named after 'actual words.'

 

Personally, I'll only accept the "Cadance" spelling if that is how it is published by offical MLP things, Hub, etc. MLP wiki doesn't count. I just don't understand why they'd go from her original Cadenza to throw in a random extra "a" that isn't even pronounced in English as an "a" to make a word that isn't a word. Cadence just makes sense, plus when spoken, the "e" is the proper vowel sound.

 

Not trying to be rude...but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference...

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Not trying to be rude...but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference...

 

I hope I didn't come across as rude either. I was just explaining to the individual who posted to state that it should be spelled "Cadance," and I replied with why there are those of us who spell it as Cadence. But, for those who just think it looks better with "dance" in the name, or for those who just don't care, tis whatever.

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I hope I didn't come across as rude either. I was just explaining to the individual who posted to state that it should be spelled "Cadance," and I replied with why there are those of us who spell it as Cadence. But, for those who just think it looks better with "dance" in the name, or for those who just don't care, tis whatever.

 

You didn't look rude earlier, it just seems like a moot point where we argue over which one vowel is in a certain character's name.

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You didn't look rude earlier, it just seems like a moot point where we argue over which one vowel is in a certain character's name.

 

INTERNET FIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!

 

... lol... I said the above in my mind like how a kid usually calls out "food fight," but I don't know how to throw the internet :o

 

Pinkie would know how! :lol:

 

(I just have a habit of justifying myself when called out as potentially incorrect, even over silly things as a single vowel over silly places such as an internet forum) :wacko:

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INTERNET FIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!

 

... lol... I said the above in my mind like how a kid usually calls out "food fight," but I don't know how to throw the internet :o

 

Pinkie would know how! :lol:

 

(I just have a habit of justifying myself when called out as potentially incorrect, even over silly things as a single vowel over silly places such as an internet forum) :wacko:

 

Hey now, I don't want any part in fighting. I'm just here to be the troll in the corner.

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According to every scholastic source I can find, Cadenza is a musical term. So is Cadence (Cadenza considered the Italian version of the English Cadence). Nowhere is Cadance an actual word, not that all ponies are named after 'actual words.'

 

Personally, I'll only accept the "Cadance" spelling if that is how it is published by offical MLP things, Hub, etc. MLP wiki doesn't count. I just don't understand why they'd go from her original Cadenza to throw in a random extra "a" that isn't even pronounced in English as an "a" to make a word that isn't a word. Cadence just makes sense, plus when spoken, the "e" is the proper vowel sound.

 

Well according to wiki...
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I don't think she was evil... Genghis Khan pretty much did the same thing, and he is a true hero and unity-bringer of the Mongolians, sort of. Maybe comparing a cartoon pony to a Khan is a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea. Really hope that makes some sense.

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If any of the major villains in this series is at all misunderstood I'd say Discord would be, as he's just trying to have fun in his own way more than anything. A troll just doing things for the lolz, if you will. Meanwhile, Chrysalis kidnaps and seals away an innocent girl to feast on her to-be husband's emotions. Yeahno. www.You'reAnEvilB*tch.com.

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Ah, another "Misunderstood" thread.

 

I actually kinda felt that way about Gilda, well, she was a jerk, but I don't think anyone noticed that she's probably terribly miserable for it. That's the only villain character I've really ever really felt sorry for.

 

But Chrysalis, I would have felt sorry if she showed even the least bit of hesitation and/or remorse. Didn't kill anypony? You can't feed on a pony's love if their dead, and that was her goal, to feed on them. And what was she doing to Celestia!?

 

Anyways, yeah, she was just feeding her people, but there were different ways she could've done it. Could've taught her subjects to take a less frightening form and join the ponies of Equestria, and get love naturally, or even just have her minions love eachother, but apparently they aren't capable of that.

 

But whatever the case, the brainwashing she was doing to Armor took it too far; she wasn't just feeding to survive, she was fed so well she could defeat Celestia, definitely far more than needed for survival.

 

And did they need love to survive? There's an interesting question. Maybe, it seems more like it just increases their magical ability to make them more powerful, since that's what it did, but as for surviving, they actually ate just like any other animal. After all, "Friendship [Love] is Magic", so that would imply it feeds their magical ability, not their stomachs, which would also make a lot more sense in a lot of different ways...

 

 

Now, even considering the possibility of everything in your favor, though, and that they actually did need it to survive, and are too dumb to love eachother, in Celestia's place, I'd still fight to defend Equestria. They aren't just trying to survive; it's more than that, they're conquerers brainwashing the locals and imprisoning them. She wanted every pony under her control, "Every Stallion Mare and Foal". That's beyond wanting love, and beyond wanting survival; that's wanting invasion.

 

But, above that, they're clearly, from the beginning, unwilling to do things on peaceful terms, and because of that I'd fight to defend Equestria. It was their choice to suffer the consequences of taking militant action against my kingdom, is how I'd think. I have a soveriegn duty to my subjects to defend them, they had the option of taking a peaceful route, but because they choose militant action, they get a militant reply.

 

/

Misunderstood? Maybe. But we know things so we can take actions - so how would her being misunderstood affect my actions? Even if she had those feelings of doubt and regret, for the reasons listed above, I still wouldn't let her rule Equestria like she did. If I were Celestia, I'd think; if they need it to survive, we can negotiate peacefully. But they don't need to invade and oppress my subjects through militant action, that is unacceptable on any grounds. If the choice is their lives, or ours (what is even the point of living in the mindless state Shining Armor was brainwashed into?), then I have a royal duty to my subjects to pick ours.

 

Is it cheating if I copy paste my reblog on tumblr to here?

 

You have a tumblr blog? Link me!

 

~

I'll write more when I have more time to read the thread and write replies to more stuff, like moral relativism, which I am in absolute, strong stand against (not only because it's wrong, but that it's an outright destructive idea).

 

==

One thing I wanted to add, though, is if you meant this thread just in outright judgement of her.

 

Well, for that, there's no grounds to judge anybody on. Christ commanded not to judge, and that's reason enough for me, but if you want more;

It's absolutely impossible to judge anyone at all. While I do believe there is more to a person than the 3-pound lump of matter in their skull (a meterialist view that utterly fails in any way to describe conscious experience), it is indisputable that hormones, chemical compounds, etc. etc. can drastically effect the way someone feels, and thus their actions.

 

When it comes to outright judging, if we account for differences in brain chemistry causing them to feel differently, then it's possible Gilda could be kinder than Fluttershy, or Cadence could be more evil than Chrysalis. I mean, what if Chrysalis' brain makes her feel extremely power-hungry, and utterly lacks any empathetic function, meaning that her essence, her qualia, so to speak, is actually being extremely noble to spare ponies' lives, but meanwhile, maybe Cadence's brain is set up to totally lack those negative feelings and an overabundance of hormones that promote altruistic tendencies.

 

All this, so that, if you were to tweak their brains to put them on level playing ground, so to speak, make them identical in hormone/emotional production, then Cadence would end up as a jerk unable to handle her anger, jealousy or pride and Chysalis would end up as a kind, noble being, having a great skill at dealing with her own pride and keeping herself in check, having to deal with so little pride compared to her natural mind.

 

But then again, the reverse is just as equally possible, and Cadence may be far more kind and noble than we realize, constantly struggling and overcoming anger, pride, and jealousy, while Chrysalis is purely evil, but lacks enough anger or aggression to be more evil than she is.

 

So in that sense, it's totally impossible to just flat-out judge any character, assuming free will exists (which I say is just a natural conclusion after the realization that qualia, or consciousness, is impossible from a purely materialistic/physical standpoint).

 

 

And, continuing on that point, the whole "misunderstood" thing seems to warrant pity. Well, naturally, I pity anyone who's evil, nobody's evil without a reason, and it's usually that they're miserable or can't handle themselves, which would cause them to be miserable, as well. And if they're crazy and not miserable, despite being evil, then I'd pity the fact that they'd never know the kind of deep happiness and joy that comes from being a loving being.

 

But, like I said, such pity wouldn't keep me from doing what's necessary, like defending Equestria. I try to love everyone, even my enemies. That being said, though, if I were a marine, I wouldn't refrain from shooting a terrorist about to go on a killing streak, no matter how much I love and pity them, because the soon-to-be victims have a right to life, and if I can save them and I don't then I become responsible for their deaths, just because I didn't kill one killer.

 

Understanding that they were misunderstood wouldn't change my actions a bit. No matter how bad Chrysalis may have felt about doing what she did to Canterlot, that wouldn't stop me at all from defending Canterlot. She had her chance at negotiations and she ignored them. Any response I take to defend Canterlot is as much her fault as if she jumps in the ocean and gets wet. It doesn't matter if she didn't know any better, that doesn't at all change the fact that the ponies have a right to live a life with purpose, unbrainwashed by changeling feeding.

Edited by EASA - Matt
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Ah, another "Misunderstood" thread.

 

I actually kinda felt that way about Gilda, well, she was a jerk, but I don't think anyone noticed that she's probably terribly miserable for it. That's the only villain character I've really ever really felt sorry for.

 

But Chrysalis, I would have felt sorry if she showed even the least bit of hesitation and/or remorse. Didn't kill anypony? You can't feed on a pony's love if their dead, and that was her goal, to feed on them. And what was she doing to Celestia!?

 

Anyways, yeah, she was just feeding her people, but there were different ways she could've done it. Could've taught her subjects to take a less frightening form and join the ponies of Equestria, and get love naturally, or even just have her minions love eachother, but apparently they aren't capable of that.

 

But whatever the case, the brainwashing she was doing to Armor took it too far; she wasn't just feeding to survive, she was fed so well she could defeat Celestia, definitely far more than needed for survival.

 

And did they need love to survive? There's an interesting question. Maybe, it seems more like it just increases their magical ability to make them more powerful, since that's what it did, but as for surviving, they actually ate just like any other animal. After all, "Friendship [Love] is Magic", so that would imply it feeds their magical ability, not their stomachs, which would also make a lot more sense in a lot of different ways...

 

 

Now, even considering the possibility of everything in your favor, though, and that they actually did need it to survive, and are too dumb to love eachother, in Celestia's place, I'd still fight to defend Equestria. They aren't just trying to survive; it's more than that, they're conquerers brainwashing the locals and imprisoning them. She wanted every pony under her control, "Every Stallion Mare and Foal". That's beyond wanting love, and beyond wanting survival; that's wanting invasion.

 

But, above that, they're clearly, from the beginning, unwilling to do things on peaceful terms, and because of that I'd fight to defend Equestria. It was their choice to suffer the consequences of taking militant action against my kingdom, is how I'd think. I have a soveriegn duty to my subjects to defend them, they had the option of taking a peaceful route, but because they choose militant action, they get a militant reply.

 

/

Misunderstood? Maybe. But we know things so we can take actions - so how would her being misunderstood affect my actions? Even if she had those feelings of doubt and regret, for the reasons listed above, I still wouldn't let her rule Equestria like she did. If I were Celestia, I'd think; if they need it to survive, we can negotiate peacefully. But they don't need to invade and oppress my subjects through militant action, that is unacceptable on any grounds. If the choice is their lives, or ours (what is even the point of living in the mindless state Shining Armor was brainwashed into?), then I have a royal duty to my subjects to pick ours.

 

 

 

You have a tumblr blog? Link me!

 

~

I'll write more when I have more time to read the thread and write replies to more stuff, like moral relativism, which I am in absolute, strong stand against (not only because it's wrong, but that it's an outright destructive idea).

 

==

One thing I wanted to add, though, is if you meant this thread just in outright judgement of her.

 

Well, for that, there's no grounds to judge anybody on. Christ commanded not to judge, and that's reason enough for me, but if you want more;

It's absolutely impossible to judge anyone at all. While I do believe there is more to a person than the 3-pound lump of matter in their skull (a meterialist view that utterly fails in any way to describe conscious experience), it is indisputable that hormones, chemical compounds, etc. etc. can drastically effect the way someone feels, and thus their actions.

 

When it comes to outright judging, if we account for differences in brain chemistry causing them to feel differently, then it's possible Gilda could be kinder than Fluttershy, or Cadence could be more evil than Chrysalis. I mean, what if Chrysalis' brain makes her feel extremely power-hungry, and utterly lacks any empathetic function, meaning that her essence, her qualia, so to speak, is actually being extremely noble to spare ponies' lives, but meanwhile, maybe Cadence's brain is set up to totally lack those negative feelings and an overabundance of hormones that promote altruistic tendencies.

 

All this, so that, if you were to tweak their brains to put them on level playing ground, so to speak, make them identical in hormone/emotional production, then Cadence would end up as a jerk unable to handle her anger, jealousy or pride and Chysalis would end up as a kind, noble being, having a great skill at dealing with her own pride and keeping herself in check, having to deal with so little pride compared to her natural mind.

 

But then again, the reverse is just as equally possible, and Cadence may be far more kind and noble than we realize, constantly struggling and overcoming anger, pride, and jealousy, while Chrysalis is purely evil, but lacks enough anger or aggression to be more evil than she is.

 

So in that sense, it's totally impossible to just flat-out judge any character, assuming free will exists (which I say is just a natural conclusion after the realization that qualia, or consciousness, is impossible from a purely materialistic/physical standpoint).

 

 

And, continuing on that point, the whole "misunderstood" thing seems to warrant pity. Well, naturally, I pity anyone who's evil, nobody's evil without a reason, and it's usually that they're miserable or can't handle themselves, which would cause them to be miserable, as well. And if they're crazy and not miserable, despite being evil, then I'd pity the fact that they'd never know the kind of deep happiness and joy that comes from being a loving being.

 

But, like I said, such pity wouldn't keep me from doing what's necessary, like defending Equestria. I try to love everyone, even my enemies. That being said, though, if I were a marine, I wouldn't refrain from shooting a terrorist about to go on a killing streak, no matter how much I love and pity them, because the soon-to-be victims have a right to life, and if I can save them and I don't then I become responsible for their deaths, just because I didn't kill one killer.

 

Understanding that they were misunderstood wouldn't change my actions a bit. No matter how bad Chrysalis may have felt about doing what she did to Canterlot, that wouldn't stop me at all from defending Canterlot. She had her chance at negotiations and she ignored them. Any response I take to defend Canterlot is as much her fault as if she jumps in the ocean and gets wet. It doesn't matter if she didn't know any better, that doesn't at all change the fact that the ponies have a right to live a life with purpose, unbrainwashed by changeling feeding.

 

 

Exactly. Just...perfect.

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-snip-

 

All I have to answer to this is "Touché"

 

Interesting conslussion you've achieved on this matter and definitely a lot of things worth thinking about. This is all just a series of personal interpretations of mine, and something I would prefer to believe in since it fits better for my tastes. One could say that I choose the viewpoint that I find to be the most appealing, and in this case it's to view her as socially misunderstood with a childhood leading to her "evil" actions.

 

If you know the theory of behaviourism from the tests made by B.F. Skinner then one knows that the enviroment is something that shapes the person. If Chrysalis was raised in the belief that everything she did in the series was for the best and was the proper way of acting, then we can't blame her, but whoever raised her, presuming someone had the power over the changelings before she became Queen.

 

Another scientist who studied the concept of behaviourism (John B. Watson) said this himself: "Give me a dozen of helthy infants, well formed and my own specified world to bring them in and I'll guarantee to take any one at random and train him to become any kind of specialist I might select - doctor, lawyer, beggarman and thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocation and race of his ancestors."

 

I believe this would be the best term to base my theory on, that Queen chrysalis was simply raised to enjoy what she did, to act as she did. She was taught to act this way and by these means acquire what she wanted. As said, everyone is shaped by their environment and by that the Queen must've seen not only the potential energy of love, but also how love affects another person. Something she might even have felt a little bit when being with Shining Armor, because she did seem to enjoy the feeling when they were close, though that could just as well be the feeling of energy. To my it still seemed like she was truly smiling and happy the moment they nuzzled each other.

 

Again, it's all just theory and wishcrafting.

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Hey now, I don't want any part in fighting. I'm just here to be the troll in the corner.

 

I was just trying to be silly/comical. I'll mosey on now :P

 

Well according to wiki...

 

Yea, it is spelled with the "a" on the wiki. But as all teachers say, wikis are not scholastic/academic sources, since anyone can change it and add whatever, correct or not. While there is a possibility the "a" spelling is correct (I assume for the pun on "dance" instead of using the English musical term cadence) I just won't go for it until/unless it is officially proclaimed in writing as such by the MLP creators/writers. By the way they pronounce it when they speak, it makes me believe there is an "e" there, but English and its vowels can be very misleading.

 

Maybe Cadence/Cadance has some awesome dance moves we haven't seen yet (not counting what we saw at her reception) to go along with her super awesome singing voice? B)

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...

 

Psychology is a very soft-science field. Of course somebody's upbringing effects them, but there also have been conclusive studies that've showed that someone's genetics effect them, too. It's an age-old battle in-between nature and nurture that's been going on since psychology has existed.

 

Studies of identical twins separated at birth have shown that nurture, or their environment and past, has caused great differences throughout their life despite their geneticaly identical nature.

 

But also, genetics most definitely has great influence, as well. Anyone with some life experience can tell you behavior patterns are somewhat hereditary, and as for real study, one specific case I can think of was a male baby who had his "male parts" damaged at birth. The parents agreed that for study, he was to be raised as a girl. However, as he grew older, he had attractions and tastes of a male, despite being raised as and believing he was a female.

 

On top of that, you have the relationships of various parts of the brain (If you haven't read "Emotional Intelligence", then I highly recommend it as the best psychology book I've read), such as the higher-functioning neocortex and the emotional limbic system, and their interactions.

 

On top of that, things reinforce themselves. The more an action is done, the easier it is to do in the future by forming neural pathways.

 

And don't even get me started on things like the Mind-Body Problem, Consciousness/Awareness, Qualia, and the ever-elusive concept of "self". And on top of that, there's the question of Free Will and Moral Responsibility, which I'm guessing is really what the heart of the "is she misunderstood" issue is.

 

 

On the concept of "self", is what exactly are we judging? If Chrysalis had a different past, could she even be said to be the same person? What if we altered her brain chemistry to increase feelings of love, kindness, and well-being, would she be the same person?

Assuming a human brain (despite the fact she seems more insectoid, but her psychology seems entirely human), then what if she has an inability to produce Oxytocin, wiki:

The inability to secrete oxytocin and feel empathy is linked to sociopathy, psychopathy, narcissism and general manipulativeness.

So, if she has an inability to secrete oxytocin, then what if we balanced her brain chemistry and made up for that inability? Would she be better, and if so, would she even be the same person, anymore?

 

Even, as is my belief, assuming that there is more to an individual than the matter in their head, could you still call them the same person if they had different genetics or past upbringing?

 

You see why I don't judge anyone, now :P

 

Gilda was mis-understood and so was Discord because he just wanted to have fun.But this villian is pure evil.

 

See above. And:

Working off of my idea of Three Fundamental Evils, Ignorance (good intentions gone wrong), Selfishness (self explanatory), and Weakness (may have desire to be good, with knowledge on how, but loses self control to anger, etc.), I think of it this way;

 

Someone who's done evil because they're ignorant of the fact that what they did would be bad, needs to be corrected, and accept that correction.

 

Someone who's just plain selfish needs to ultimately learn that a selfish existence is a pointless one, and they need a lot of pain to realize that,

 

But those that I pity most are the ones that desparetely want to be good, but don't have the self-control or courage to do it. To me, Gilda came off that way, because she was so nice around Rainbow Dash. It seemed more like she had some anger issues; after years of separation, she finally meets up with her BFF, and when they're about to fly together again for the first time in years, some crazy pony she's never met keeps trying to destroy that moment, and later what were supposed to be harmless jokes, she took personally and felt attacked and rejected with every prank. She didn't want to look weak, so she'd say: "I'm down with a good prank", when really she couldn't take them, just like Fluttershy couldn't.

 

The whole "cool" thing was mostly just a cover she used to socially interact, but the truth is she was really just as soft as Fluttershy beneath it. Take a Fluttershy desparate for social skills, so she plays "cool" (as we see in her emberrassment at the camp cheer), and add some suppressed anger to the mix, and you get Gilda.

 

I can't help but wonder what would've happened if Rainbow Dash had just introduced her to her friends, then went flying and did stuff with them later without them interrupting. It may have gone quiet differently. I have a thread on Gilda, and an explenation at why she roared at Fluttershy that makes a lot more sense than "she's just a jerk". A jerk, but that roar went way beyond that.

Edited by EASA - Matt
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She was evil all right- you don't relish in and even sing about the destruction and chaos your minions cause and be called misunderstood. She wanted to take over Equestria for cripe's sake, not to mention she attacked Celestia... Chrysalis was evil no doubt. ;)

That said, I thought she was a pretty awesome villian. Never expected something like her out of MLP! :lol:

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I would take the sentence "Finally the moment has arrived, for me to be one lucky bride" as only slight sarcasm, and then "mine, all mine" as in that she want to keep feeding of Shining Armour's overwhelming love for Cadence, which in addition made her strong enough to defeat Celestia.

 

Still chrysalis was by far the best villain in the MLP series.

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I don't think she was evil. I think that she did just want to feed her race and make sure they survive although her methods were...brash to say the least. Like when she was fighting Celestia she looked worried like she was going to lose but instead of flying away when it was tough she kept fighting, an actual villain would've ran or used a hostage. I'm pretty biased though seeing as how I'm a chrysalis fan boy :D

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