S08:E23 - Sounds of Silence

[Sonic5421 423]

Just now, Senko said:

They actually look alot like the picture in that link I posted earlier.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/Qilin-of-Chinese-mythology.jpg

Very nice!

[bwrosas 252]

Highly recommend you see it. Rachel Bloom Does a great job as Autumn Blaze 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Am i the only one who feel bad for that old pony in the train station? His loneliness must drained all of his sanity, the map should send another small side quest to save that old man's life.

A kirin can become burning creature that can burn a whole village if they are mad?! Mother of nature must be very cruel. In the society where everyone can hurt everyone just because they are mad so take away their emotions is a solution, wow, that's dark. 

I really like Autumn Blaze, i can hear her talking all day. A ton of dialogues didnt make her stroking, its amazing. She is kind of Silver Stream but wiser and more mature. She is a bit of Gabby but far less annoying because of her voice, damn, that voice is good, it isnt some annoying high-pitch cartoon character voice.

Animals saved the day again, this is the second time, animals are the crucial part of map mission. Their knowledge cannot be underestimated. The ability to understand animals is very useful once again, Fluttershy is just an mvp in map mission.

The song is pretty pleasant to hear, it combine with expositions to tell the story so i can understand what happen while enjoying a good song. This song contain emotions, moral and a good exposition which can be a bit boring if you hear them in mundane conversations. This song is not useless, that what i am trying to say.

AJ is just there to hear the story, she isnt useful as Fluttershy.., Well, its a main character job to observe, its a protagonist job to confront the problem.

"I'd rather... siiiiiiiiiinging" - Autumn Blaze

BEST. EXCUSE. FOR. A. SONG. 

Ok, Autumn Blaze wins, 9/10. Kirins are cute when they didnt talk but they are even cuter when they are siiiiiinginggggg.

This ep just make my day.

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Lambdadelta

[Senko 459]

2 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

Am i the only one who feel bad for that old pony in the train station? His loneliness must drained all of his sanity, the map should send another small side quest to save that old man's life.

A kirin can become burning creature that can burn a whole village if they are mad?! Mother of nature must be very cruel. In the society where everyone can hurt everyone just because they are mad so take away their emotions is a solution, wow, that's dark. 

I really like Autumn Blaze, i can hear her talking all day. A ton of dialogues didnt make her stroking, its amazing. She is kind of Silver Stream but wiser and more mature. She is a bit of Gabby but far less annoying because of her voice, damn, that voice is good, it isnt some annoying high-pitch cartoon character voice.

Animals saved the day again, this is the second time, animals are the crucial part of map mission. Their knowledge cannot be underestimated. The ability to understand animals is very useful once again, Fluttershy is just an mvp in map mission.

The song is pretty pleasant to hear, it combine with expositions to tell the story so i can understand what happen while enjoying a good song. This song contain emotions, moral and a good exposition which can be a bit boring if you hear them in mundane conversations. This song is not useless, that what i am trying to say.

AJ is just there to hear the story, she isnt useful as Fluttershy.., Well, its a main character job to observe, its a protagonist job to confront the problem.

"I'd rather... siiiiiiiiiinging" - Autumn Blaze

BEST. EXCUSE. FOR. A. SONG. 

Ok, Autumn Blaze wins, 9/10. Kirins are cute when they didnt talk but they are even cuter when they are siiiiiinginggggg.

This ep just make my day.

 

There's a surprising amount of dark concepts in this series over the years.

[bwrosas 252]

As far as the episode goes, like I said, Highly Recommended.

I mean everyone played a great role.  AppleJack's reaction to Autumn Blaze and her personality was great, especially when Fluttershy was surprised Blaze talked and AJ's response was "You have Nooo Idea", I thought was overall a great moment.   The animation was very fluid and beautiful to look at.  Especially the design of the Kirin. Their designs made each stand out.  You can defineinitly tell that AllSpark Animation had a hand in the animation here (those that worked on the movie that is).

Overall it's one of the best eps of the season, if not the series.  For me it has almost a Disney Renaissance vibe to it, I think that's due to the Song Blaze sings, the way it's presented, just has the classic Disney Renaissance feel to it.  

 

I hope Hasbro/Allspark/DHX convinced Rachel Bloom to reprise her role as Autumn Blaze next season.  Because I already have a idea of how she could return.  Have her come to Ponyville to visit AJ and FS, have her meet the rest of Mane 6 and Starlight, and of course Spike, and when she sees Spike and He sees her, well let's just say, ya all want him to get over Rarity, Right? 

But yeah, I hope she comes back in S9.

 

10/10 OVERALL!

[MLPFanatic34 3,234]

I really enjoyed this episode, I liked seeing Applejack and Fluttershy go on another friendship quest, I loved the introduction of the Kirin and I love Autumn Blaze, the song was very upbeat and catchy and the moral was well done. 10/10

[Music Chart Fan 819]

Overall, I'm a bit of two minds about this episode. On the one hand, I can see a sort of feel-good fluffiness to the episode which can be appealing. The Kirin are cute and likable enough, and Autumn Blaze is all right; I'm not typically a fan of characters being super-talkative and hyperactive, but it helps that she generally has a more pleasant voice and demeanor (as compared to, say, Pinkie when she starts going off). The episode also comes to a nice feel-good ending where the Kirin realize that they can keep their anger in check, and rediscover the joys of speaking and having feelings again. However, when I thought more about some of the aspects of this episode, I saw a few potential issues. I thought Applejack was offputtingly presumptuous and insensitive in her attitude toward the Kirin upon meeting them. I also wonder about the logistics of Kirin society if the Stream of Silence took away their ability to have feelings, and I noticed quite a few cases where the Kirin appear to be exhibiting feelings, or are referred to as having feelings, when they supposedly shouldn't. I also got a sense that the Kirin's conflict and particularly the resolution to it were a little too simplistic; I wonder if some of the time spent on Autumn Blaze's song and her being quirky to Applejack could have been spent fleshing out the Kirin's conflict or the resolution to it a little more.

-----

First, I'll talk about what I saw as Applejack's rather presumptuous and insensitive attitude toward the Kirin.

When Applejack and Fluttershy come across the Kirin, Applejack in particular doesn't seem to realize that this isn't just another city in Equestria, with most of the attendant societal and cultural norms; the Kirin look to be pretty isolated from pony, or any other, society. I think it would be reasonable to expect the Kirin to be wary of Applejack and Fluttershy; to expect the Kirin to perhaps just want to observe them first; and to expect that the Kirin won't necessarily welcome them with open arms and go right into chatting them up. It even took Fluttershy a fair bit to consider that maybe the Kirin don't understand them, which shouldn't have been a surprise if true, although it turned out that (somehow) the Kirin also speak "Ponish".

And when the Kirin leader nods to Fluttershy's suggestion that "you don't speak", Applejack is immediately suspicious and says "Don't or won't?". But, first off, the two of them don't even know if these Kirin are physically able to speak; that turned out to be somewhat the case, since the Stream of Silence "disabled" their ability to speak. But also, even if they were physically capable of speech, what if they just don't want to talk? The Kirin are not under any obligation to talk to Applejack and Fluttershy, or to do anything else that Applejack and Fluttershy want them to do, and the Kirin could have many reasons why aren't doing so.

Yet Applejack carries on with her apparent expectation that the Kirin are perfectly capable of talking to her, and that it's outrageous that they aren't. This is embodied in Applejack's declaration that "there's gotta be some way to make 'em speak", followed by her trying to trick them or badger them into speaking. It doesn't seem to occur to Applejack that maybe the Kirin would be more cooperative if she showed them a little more respect. Earlier, Applejack yelled to Fluttershy "Well, how are we gonna solve a friendship problem if none of 'em will tell us what it is?". Gee, maybe Applejack and Fluttershy will have to get to know and understand the Kirin on the Kirin's terms, rather than Applejack's expecting the Kirin to just do whatever she wants them to do. And I'm not sure that we see Applejack ever really learn that she was going about meeting a new species and a new society the wrong way.

However, it is funny, in some sense, to see Applejack getting agitated and impatient with the Kirin not talking to her, while the Kirin repeatedly just give her a stone-faced nonresponse; that feels, in a way, like Applejack is getting what she deserves for her presumptuousness and insensitivity. And it does seem like Applejack was (at least in part) written to have this bull-in-a-china-shop approach in order to provide a point of contention with Fluttershy, which in turn is used to demonstrate for the Kirin that friends can disagree and be angry with each other without getting out of control. But I'm not sure I like having Applejack made this offputting and oblivious to accomplish those things.

-----

Next, I'll talk about this concept that the Stream of Silence not only took away the Kirin's ability to speak, but also took away their ability to feel "feelings". This is mentioned at least a few times in the episode. After Autumn Blaze's song, Applejack says "I can't believe it! Nopony should give up feelin'...their feelin's just to keep from gettin' angry!" and Autumn Blaze replies "That what's I said!". Later, when Applejack is arguing with Fluttershy, Applejack says that "There's gotta be a better way than givin' up all your feelin's!". And when Applejack and Fluttershy are about to be dunked in the Stream of Silence, Applejack says "If we hit that water, we'll never be able to talk or feel anythin' ever again!". And, of course, several times, the Kirin are portrayed as having "neutral" facial expressions and not having emotional reactions to things going on around them.

First, it's not exactly clear what is meant by these "feelings" that the Stream of Silence prevented the Kirin from feeling. Does the term "feelings" also encompass, say, physical pain, hunger and thirst, tiredness, etc.? I suppose that, since we see the post-Stream of Silence Kirin still basically functioning, we might assume that "feelings" is referring essentially to higher-order human-like emotions, although even that still seems like a somewhat fuzzy categorization.

And one potentially puzzling thing about the post-Stream of Silence Kirin not having feelings is that they appear to be maintaining basically the same lifestyle and civilized society that they had before. What is motivating the Kirin to undertake the day-to-day work to maintain their lifestyle and society if they have no feelings? One possibility is that the post-Stream of Silence Kirin are operating on animal instinct, without any of these higher-order human-like feelings. But to what extent can animal instincts be separated from "feelings"? And can animal instincts alone justify the maintenance of a civilized society? Another possibility is that the post-Stream of Silence Kirin are operating on cold, hard reasoning that doesn't involve higher-order human-like feelings. But it might be a non-trivial task to come up with reasoning for maintaining the Kirin's lifestyle and civilized society that doesn't invoke "feelings" at some point, and I'm not sure that I would be up to that task.

-----

Another issue is that if this episode is combed through while keeping in mind that the post-Stream of Silence (and uncured) Kirin aren't supposed to have "feelings", then there seem to be quite a few apparent violations of that. Below, I'll list some of these that I noticed.

- Autumn Blaze says that she was "super bored" and looked to be going kind of crazy before she found the foal's-breath flowers and looked happy/excited before making the brew to cure herself, which all seem like feelings which she shouldn't be able to feel. And after Autumn Blaze became "quite chatty", she says that she "drove my village batty", and that they "didn't like" her jokes, songs, news, plays, etc. Again, wouldn't those also be things that the Kirin who went through the Stream of Silence shouldn't be feeling?

- Furthermore, one of the things that Autumn Blaze did after being cured was write plays/musicals and get them performed. First, how did that work, if none of the other Kirin were able to speak or have feelings? Were the actors just miming actions while music played over the top or something? Did Autumn Blaze provide voiceover to the whole thing? And if the actors don't have feelings, what would be their motivation to act in these plays/musicals in the first place? Also, did any other villagers watch these plays/musicals? If they didn't have feelings, then would they have any reason to watch them at all?

- At the end of her song, Autumn Blaze says "No matter how hard I schooled them / Fear of hurt is still what ruled them". But if the other Kirin don't have feelings, then could that really be the case? Isn't "fear of hurt" a feeling that they shouldn't be able to feel?

- A little later, when Applejack and Fluttershy start arguing over whether the Kirin should allow themselves to talk, the other Kirin who have gathered to observe start to look concerned or fearful that Applejack and Fluttershy will burst into flame or transform or something, and the Kirin do so again when they're about to dunk Applejack and Fluttershy in the Stream of Silence.

- When Autumn Blaze tells Fern Flare "you used to love to laugh at everything", and tells Rain Shine "you sung the most beautiful harmonies. Don't you miss it?", aren't those essentially emotional appeals, which shouldn't work on Kirin who have no feelings? And yet we see Fern Flare, Rain Shine, and other surrounding Kirin looking sad/wistful/regretful. If the Kirin have no feelings, then it seems like Applejack, Fluttershy, and Autumn Blaze would have to make some kind of purely logical, utilitarian argument (which doesn't invoke "feelings") to convince the other Kirin to take the cure and get their speech and feelings back.

- And at the end of the episode, Rain Shine wants Autumn Blaze to come back to live in the village, and says "I can't say how much we've missed your beautiful voice". But the Kirin literally just drank the cure which restored their abilities to have feelings; prior to that, could the Kirin have really missed Autumn Blaze's beautiful voice if they didn't have feelings?

Now I'll admit that it seems fairly easy not to notice these apparent inconsistencies if this episode is being watched without actively keeping in mind that the post-Steam of Silence Kirin aren't supposed to have "feelings". The feelings being displayed or referred to would make sense and would be relatable otherwise. That causes me to wonder if this episode could have worked with the Stream of Silence only taking away the ability to speak, and not also taking away the ability to have feelings. That could introduce its own complications, however. For example, there would be a fairly obvious point to be made that the Kirin would still be perfectly capable of making each other angry, or becoming angry, even if they weren't able to speak. And if the Kirin retained their feelings, then that might take away a justification for the reception (at least initially) that the Kirin gave to Applejack and Fluttershy.

-----

Finally, I'll talk about a few things that contribute to a sense that the Kirin's conflict and the resolution to it was a little overly simplistic.

First, we have this story of the Kirin transforming into Nirik and burning down their old village, and their subsequent submersion in the Stream of Silence, but one aspect of this story that's never really explained is the circumstances around this particular incident. In the song, we see two Kirin having a seemingly petty argument and transforming, but then a few seconds after that, other Kirin observing the incident, who looked concerned or curious and seemed to have nothing obvious to be angry about, suddenly transformed too. Why did they do that? Is the implication that Kirin anger, or the transformation into Nirik, is "contagious" and can spread to other nearby Kirin who otherwise wouldn't be angry or transform? Or if not that, did all these other Kirin have their own things that they just happened to get angry about all at the same time? What were they getting angry about, and could those things have been worked out or solved? It's fine and all for Applejack to say that "friends can disagree without causin' a ruckus", and for Fluttershy to suggest that "if you're really angry, then take some time away to be a Nirik where it won't hurt anypony", but wouldn't it be better to fix the things that they're getting angry about in the first place, when possible?

Also, Twilight had the shield and information from Rockhoof that suggested that this transformation into Nirik was happening 1000+ years ago. And if that's the case, then did Kirin getting angry and transforming (with that possibly spreading to other Kirin) never burn down their village before? Or was this a frequent occurrence, and this particular incident was just the straw that broke the Kirin leader's back? If this was a regular occurrence before, then I wouldn't be so sure that it can easily be fixed with just a few sentences of advice from Applejack and Fluttershy.

And when Fluttershy asks Autumn Blaze how she knew she could control her temper, Autumn Blaze says that she didn't know, until she just did it, I suppose. But will it be that easy for the other Kirin to control their tempers? Did none of them know that they could control their tempers before, but now, all of a sudden, they'll just find that they're able to do so? This is important in light of Fluttershy's advice that "if you're really angry, then take some time away to be a Nirik where it won't hurt anypony". Being able to do that would require some level of self-control when they're getting angry, and I don't know if all the Kirin will be able to exert that self-control, at least not without a fair amount of work.

-----

Now here are the rest of my miscellaneous observations:

Twilight proclaims that it's "amazing!" that Fluttershy and Applejack are going on a friendship quest, since this is the first time the map has teamed up the same ponies for a second quest. But is it amazing, really? Over the past few seasons, the Cutie Map has seemed to break any particular rules that we thought it was following, so I'm not sure that there's even intended to be any rhyme or reason to what the Map does at this point.

Twilight says that she only knows what Rockhoof told her about the Peaks of Peril, which is presumably a reference to Rockhoof's new job. I remember that Twilight wasn't able to find much information on The Smoky Mountains in her research back in "The Hooffields And McColts", so it's nice to see that Rockhoof is being consulted by Twilight when perhaps she isn't able to find much (or any) information on a new Map location.

Somewhat surprisingly, I got the "flanks don't lie" reference. I don't know much about 2000s mainstream pop, other than the big hits on the Adult Top 40 and Adult Contemporary charts, but I do know that Hips Don't Lie was a #1 hit in 2006 by Shakira. However, the Simon & Garfunkel song referenced by the title of this episode is much more of my kind of music, even though that song was a #1 hit way back in early 1966.

The ticket guy says that he's not used to seeing anyone take the train to "the end of the line. The final destination. The last stop". But this isn't the only end of a train line we've seen in the show. Back in "The Cutie Map", when the Mane Six were travelling to Starlight's village, they also got off the train at a point where the tracks just abruptly ended in the middle of nowhere. Of course, we don't know how much else of the Friendship Express train system this ticket guy is aware of, especially if he's gone a little crazy.

Speaking of which, does this ticket guy just live out of the ticket stand? Does he ever travel back to civilization at any point? Is he getting paid by somebody to be "on duty" out here?

As I've seen pointed out by others, this is at least the second time that Fluttershy has been distracted by animals and split off from a hiking group without the rest of the group noticing, since that also occurred in "The Mean 6". Fluttershy really needs to learn to say something if she's going to hang back from the hiking group, and the others need to learn to pay some attention to their hiking mates.

As soon as Autumn Blaze falls into the flower bed of foal's-breath, she gets excited and already seems to know to make a "brew" of the flowers to cure the effects of the Stream of Silence. So, is foal's-breath well-known among the Kirin to be a cure to the Stream of Silence? Did only Autumn Blaze know this, for some reason? How far away from the village did Autumn Blaze have to wonder before stumbling across the foal's-breath?

After Autumn Blaze's song, Applejack says that she's going to get the other Kirin to welcome Autumn Blaze back, and maybe even convince them to take Autumn Blaze's cure. But I'm not sure what Applejack plans to say differently to convince the Kirin that Autumn Blaze didn't already try to say. And with Applejack's track record of failing to get the Kirin to cooperate with her up to this point, I wouldn't really expect any more success in this endeavor.

When the other Kirin are going to dunk Applejack and Fluttershy in the Stream of Silence, the two of them are seen to be hovering over top of the water (as shown by their shadows) while the Kirin are all standing on the road and on the bank of the river. Then we zoom in on Autumn Blaze as a Nirik, and two seconds later, Applejack and Fluttershy are now conveniently hovering over the road instead of the water, and the Kirin have conveniently arrayed themselves on both sides of the road, to allow room for Autumn Blaze to make her wall of fire encircling Applejack and Fluttershy.

Nirik fire was apparently hot enough to burn down the Kirin's old village, and Autumn Blaze encircles Applejack and Fluttershy with a wall of Nirik fire just a few feet away from them; I would think that it would be pretty hot in there.

Also, if we're making song references in this episode, there was a missed opportunity for Fluttershy to thank Autumn Blaze for the "ring of fire", rather than the "wall of fire".

Finally, when one of the Kirin is playing charades to try to communicate to Autumn Blaze that they want to take the cure, Autumn Blaze gets angry, and one of the things she shouts is "Just write it down!", which is a good point. We saw Autumn Blaze distributing newspapers and Variety reviews in her song earlier, so the Kirin seem to have written language. Did the Stream of Silence somehow modify the Kirins' brains so that they're incapable of writing, as well as speaking?

[The Nth Doctor 661]

So...uh...

Were any of the Kirin pregnant when they took the vow of silence? How long were they silent? Were any kids born during this period? How did they handle their parents being mute?

[Justin_Case001 4,881]

*Sigh*  You know the bad thing about great episodes?  Now I have to write a lot! 

Spoiler

 

Although not as important in the lore or development departments as Molt Down or What Lies Beneath, I think that Sounds of Silence is probably the best episode of the season so far.  In fact, it's the only episode this season that I've given a 5/5 rating.  I'm pretty stingy when it comes to giving out five stars.  I have to save it for the times when I was truly blown away, or the rating doesn't mean much, and this was one of those time.

What an episode!  Finally, after dragging ourselves through a pretty frustrating season, we finally got the outta-the-park home run.  Oh, it was just so good!    Where do I begin?!

Just about everything in this episode worked perfectly for me.  I'd like to dive straight into the moral, and circle back to the more superficial things later.  This is one of the best, most original, and most important lessons we've gotten in a long time.  Not being afraid to voice your opinions, and being willing to have civil disagreements is a vital message for all people.  Simply staying silent and not talking things out is never the answer.  I sometimes read more into Pony than is really there, but I wonder if this episode, at least in part, a commentary on the fractured state of the American public discourse and the fact that so many people are afraid to speak up lest they be ostracized and fired for saying something as innocuous as "men and women are biologically different."  (Oh yeah, I'm looking straight at you, Google.)  The great thing about morals and underlying messages is that even if a particular message wasn't intended, if even one person gleaned that message, then all the better, and it really doesn't matter whether it was intended or not.  There is a massive problem in my society today in which free speech is under attack.  Sure, we still have the First Amendment, but it doesn't mean much if it isn't exercised.  Many people are downright terrified to voice their opinions because of the inevitable fallout and sh*tstorm.  People are often castigated for merely speaking to someone from an opposing side who has a different opinion.  We need to speak up, we need to able to speak up, we need to hear others' opinions (especially those we disagree with), we shouldn't be afraid of sharing our honest opinions, we shouldn't be terrified of offending others or being offended, and we need to be able to debate ideas and have civil disagreements without it tearing us apart.  That's what this episode was all about, and that's a vital message for all people in all times, not just America at this time.

There's also the important message of not rejecting or being afraid to experience the negative emotions, but accepting them as part of a whole and balanced life.  One could even say that if we learn to actually embrace the negative emotions and not fight them, we will be better people and our lives will be richer because we will see that the negative emotions needn't control or define us, and will pass.

I think that, for me, the one thing that took this from a good episode to a spectacular one was the unexpected disagreement between AJ and Fluttershy on how to solve the problem.  I did not see that coming.  I expected them to just be on the same page (that would be AJ's page), immediately, and simply proceed to convince them all to take the cure.  Honestly, they easily could have gone that route, and it still would have been a very good episode.  It kind of blew my mind when Fluttershy said, "Oh no, we can't let that happen!  They have to stay silent!"  I was like, whoa, did she really say that?  For a split second, I felt a little angry at Fluttershy.  Like....how could you possibly think that would be the right solution?!  But that was the genius of it.  This was a brilliant way to add so much more to the moral.  Hearing a story from a completely different perspective can radically alter your own point of view and conclusions, and even the best of friends can arrive at vastly different conclusions.  But that doesn't mean that either side has malicious intentions, and it certainly doesn't mean that you need to get angry at each other, or, Celestia forbid, stop being friends.  This is another message that Americans really need to take to heart at the moment.  Sometimes, someone you know and love, maybe even a family member, can shock you with an opinion you never expected, perhaps something you vehemently disagree with.  If that happens, don't get angry with them, don't hate them, but instead, talk to them, try to understand why they feel this way.  Don't be afraid to disagree, but look for common ground, talk all the ideas out, and hopefully the good ideas will win out.  And that's exactly what happened here, and AJ's ideas won out.  Absolutely brilliant twist.

There were so many other little things that made the episode so great.  Mature characterization all-around.  Nopony acted like a 7-year old.  Autumn Blaze was charming.  The pony trying to sign was precious for some reason.  The Kirin tilting their heads in curiosity at AJ and Fluttershy was freaking adorable.  That head tilting--omg--my heart a-splode!    The journey to the village was surprisingly a pleasure to watch.  Fluttershy's little burst of assertiveness to AJ was wonderful.  She's still shy, but it's about time she makes her voice heard when she needs to, especially when it's one of her closest friends.  The Kirin were gorgeous.  Their leader, Rain Shine, might well be the most beautiful creature in the entire Pony universe.  I'm gonna call her Celestia Mk. II.  Oh wait, Twilight is Celestia Mk. II.  Okay, Rain Shine is Celestia Mk. III.  Man, I always thought Celestia was pretty, but Celestia just got her perfectly shaped, oversized, voluptuous ass handed to her.  I'm about ready to throw Tia in the giveaway bag.  She's obsolete.  Yesterday's news.  Rain Shine is hot, Celestia's not.  I'm kidding, I still love Sunbutt, but that Rain Shine, HOLY MACARONI.    The song was even pretty good.  Best song we've had since....um....probably Rainbow from the movie (the only good thing about the movie.    Don't worry, I'm not going there again.  )

I would like some more backstory into the Kirins and their flame forms.  Lotta questions, there.  Questions that I'm sure will go unanswered.  *Sigh*.

I'm usually annoyed by Ye Olde Plot Map, but even that doesn't bother me so much now, since we finally have a proper explanation for its intelligence.

There's only two complaints I have, and they're minor.  First--it still annoys me to no end that the ponies act as if not receiving a direct summons from the Map means they are absolutely banned from going.  Can't the others go and just hang out?!  They don't have to actively help!  They could just tag along, be there for moral support, go sight-seeing, whatever!  Does Twilight think that lightning is going to arc out of the Map and kill her if she goes?  One of these days, I swear to Celestia, one of these days, I want Twilight to say, "Oh, I so wish I could go, but the map said I can't!", and then the Tree of Harmony manifests a hologram and says, "What the f*ck'r ya talkin' about, Twilight?  I never said that!"

The other complaint, which I have literally made every single time there's a good episode, is that it wasn't long enough.  ME WANT MOAR!!  Yeah, a lot of the story was rushed, especially the tail end.  The climax and resolution really got compressed and accelerated, there, but I'd rather have that be the case than leave vital things out.  I just wish they had more time.  I keep saying that this show should be an hour (~40 min of actual program).  It could easily fill that time slot.  Quite frankly, I don't understand why there exists this seemingly hard and fast rule that kids shows can only be in a half-hour block.  And don't you dare gimmie that poppycock about kids' attention spans.  Oh, so kids won't sit through something more than 30 minutes?  So kids don't watch The Little Mermaid, or Beauty and the Beast, or Tangled, or Frozen?  Huh?  HUH?!  When I was 7 years old, I loved Disney movies, and I was also obsessed with Who Framed Roger Rabbit, the 1989 Michael Keaton Batman, the original TMNJ ,and Star Wars.  I watched at least one of those movies every week!  In fact, I watched those movies so much it drove my parents crazy!  I started watching Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman when it premiered (I was 8), and then Star Trek Voyager (I was 10).  I was f*ckin GLUED to the tv for those.  Yeah, kids sure won't sit through a 40 minute Pony.  Pfffftt.

I think that the rule of 30-minutes for a kids show needs to be broken.  Literally every show for adults is an hour aside from sitcoms.  They need to be to tell the stories!  Kids shows can and should be good enough to fill those shoes.  Pony is easily good enough.  We just need one show to break that glass ceiling and prove it's possible so others can follow.  But, as always, I'm sure it's just some marketing bullsh*t about ads.  Not enough profit for companies to advertise in an hour slot, or some garbage like that.  PFFFFFFTTTT.

That's it.  Those were my gripes, and the time one isn't their fault.  Awesome episode.  Superb.  Fantastic.  Celestia and Luna give it two hooves up!

Edited October 3, 2018 by Justin_Case001
Forgot to mention the cute head tilting thing.

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

On 9/30/2018 at 5:34 PM, ShootingStar159 said:

Applejack served no personal purpose, you could have replaced her with anyone else and the story would have remained the same.

Applejack's the one who fits this role best. Starlight may be empathetic, but can also be really blunt. For a moral about how to manage their anger as well as discovering the reason why they suppressed their emotions in the first place, Starlight's inclusion runs the risk of turning a very sensitive subject into something disrespectful. You'd risk sending a bad message with her spilling the wrong words. AJ's much softer personality and traits balance it out more and further complements Fluttershy's tenderness for the animals and kirin.

On 9/30/2018 at 5:34 PM, ShootingStar159 said:

Fluttershy is once again used for her talents alone instead of for her personality or experiences.

1. She also became acquainted with the squirrels outside the peaks and inadvertently discovered the Foal's Breath flower to help the squirrels. And it was her conversation with the squirrels that helped them discover the true entrance into the Peaks of Peril.
2. When AJ was confused on how to communicate with the kirin, she gave her advice. They'll only answer yes or no questions.
3. As AJ was off to find Autumn Blaze, Fluttershy got more comfortable around the kirin. By using her own advice, she discovered not only that kirin become nirik when they get angry, but how their inability to retain their kirin form resulted in Rain Shine forcing everyone to take the vow of silence. Coming back to this in a minute.

On 9/30/2018 at 5:34 PM, ShootingStar159 said:

The song...ugh. The song was fine, I enjoyed it. It had a good beat, fun lyrics and such, but it took what should have been a 30 second explanation and turned into a 3 minute song. And to make it worse, Fluttershy goes ahead and gives the 30 second explanation anyways. The song actively damages the storytelling by making the conclusion rushed, which has Autumn solve the problem completely on her own, which makes the reasoning for Applejack and Fluttershy even needing to go there just hopelessly irrelevant.

A Kirin Tale didn't damage the story one bit.

1. We as an audience want good, entertaining stories. Autumn Blaze hadn't chatted with anyone for a long time until AJ came along, and her energy and sense of humor are the episode's backbone. Cut out the song, you cut out a lot of what sells the episode and thus create a really dry, boring atmosphere. A Kirin Tale's the strongest, most memorable, and best part of the episode for good reason.
2. The episode validates both Fluttershy's and AJ's arguments. How Autumn explained it has a lot of humor, which didn't make the events as serious as they really were. But because the kirin are mute and emotionally suppressed, Fluttershy fully realized how serious the situation was immediately. She's really close to the animals and flora, so she opted for the opposite solution, and justifiably so. OTOH, AJ had a valid argument, too, which was find the Foal's Breath flower to free them from their vow of silence so they can emote and communicate again. Both sides have a point, rounding the conflict. It's easy to see why they briefly argued; they were both passionate with solving the kirin dilemma and couldn't find common ground, which they did after Blaze rescued them.

[Brainstorm 4,106]

I'm glad that Fluttershy and Applejack help the Kirin. Showing them that giving up your feeling and voice doesn't solve anything.

[Loyal Defender 4,111]

I've seen life-size plushies of Autumn Blaze and now I so badly want one! Autumn is so adorable!

[ImpctR 155]

On 8/29/2018 at 9:06 AM, Happy Yoshi said:

And the Kirin are based off on this design:

  Hide contents

http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/m/page/Kirin

 

Please tell me this isn't some fanfic that came after first spoilers about this episode. I was completely wrong about Chimera, although it has similar features but is 2-headed goat and lion. I've been talking about similar ideas coming but I've never seen this type of mythical creature, like deer horns, dragon skin and mane/hooves like a horse or any such creature make it ideal for MLP. Then that's bull's eye what Kirins are and where the idea was taken from. And genius since it is so similar to a horse body, so they made them look cute like ponies. That's why I thought they were ponies and their horn was like Mistmane's simply a different horn because different area of the world.

Edited October 3, 2018 by ImpctR

[Senko 459]

9 hours ago, ImpctR said:

Please tell me this isn't some fanfic that came after first spoilers about this episode. I was completely wrong about Chimera, although it has similar features but is 2-headed goat and lion. I've been talking about similar ideas coming but I've never seen this type of mythical creature, like deer horns, dragon skin and mane/hooves like a horse or any such creature make it ideal for MLP. Then that's bull's eye what Kirins are and where the idea was taken from. And genius since it is so similar to a horse body, so they made them look cute like ponies. That's why I thought they were ponies and their horn was like Mistmane's simply a different horn because different area of the world.

Definately a real beast (well for a given value of real obviously) I've known about them for years along with other fun but little known monsters like the Squonk.

[Sh Pie 65]

This was an entertaining Cutie Map episode focusing on AJ and Fluttershy and introducing a never before seen race of pony esque creatures, the kirin and its enraged form, nirik (which is actually kirin spelled backwards although others more experienced in Chinese folklore may have came to that observation before me).

I can really relate to Autumn's feelings about how she was going crazy from being incapable of sound and having nopony to talk to. Overly long and unnatural silences are the worst! I don't mind not talking for a little while, when I'm alone or have nothing much to say, provided there is a source of sound elsewhere such as television or video games. Otherwise, it just makes me anxious and I rarely feel anxious. If I were in Autumn's place for all that time, I imagine it would have been so lonely and boring. That's probably what suppressed their feelings, losing their voices was the catalyst and the following silence eroded their minds until they just felt empty inside.

Autumn's song was awesome, it's the kind of song that I would listen to like A Changeling Can Change or Smile.

Overall, I appreciate the moral that was addressed in this episode since it's important that we don't shy away from conversation even if it means emotional distress since there are ways to mitigate or remedy such problems without resorting to drastic ineffective solutions like denying them the right to express their honest feelings. I think AJ was definitely the right pony for this mission. She would never stay quiet if she had something to say, she would just say it and accept the consequences.

[GreySeer 7]

Autumn Blaze was a treat to watch, and her song got stuck in my head for a couple days. The voiceless and mostly emotionless village was a pretty cool concept.

I really hope to see at least one more episode featuring a Kirin next season. Really my only complaint is we didn't get to be introduced to the Kirin until so late in the show's life. I would  love to see more of them.

A favorite of mine this season for sure.

[Cash In 22,214]

This was hands down one of my favourite episodes in Season 8, so far.

The Kirin are certainly an interesting species and I dearly hope that we see them a few more times - I am aware that I do say that a lot, but this particular species has a lot of potential in the future. I wasn't expecting much here, but the episode delivered - in terms of substance and incorporating a mythical creature into the show's own mythology. I was a bit spoiled on the plot unfortunately, but it was still pretty enjoyable to watch unfold. The only issue I had, was that I felt things solved themselves too quickly. The search for the foal's-breath flowers was quite underwhelming  and I was surprised that the Kirin gave in to fixing their voices, without any reluctance at all. Aside from that, the song was pretty silly - in a good way, the humour made me chuckle and Autumn Blaze is simply awesome.

Anyways, I found this to be brilliant.

[JCKane 345]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:24 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

She's good-natured, I'll give her that, but it's kinda like the MLP Movie: I guess I just don't like that much noise at once. I think my complaint is that most of what she's saying is kinda banal; she's talking just to talk, which I guess didn't charm me the way it did everyone else. It might be more accurate to say that I can see myself enjoying that character, but didn't think this episode gave her enough to say which was interesting or funny. 

While I still found it more fun.  The "Talking just to talk" well it's kind of the point.  She hadn't been able to talk to someone in so long that she just can't help herself but to just keep blabbing, even if she's not really saying anything.  But I kind of seen her as a bit 'kookoo' which added to her charm.   Though again there is that logical reasoning for it.

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:24 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

I can somewhat accept that the Kirins might not have thought of this solution, but the show's penchant for awkward pacing due to the time constraint is something I would have expected it to find ways to deal with by now. Instead, I feel it's only ever gotten worse. 

Yeah, I tend to notice some episodes don't have the best pacing or a song gets stretched out for longer than it's should have. Granted, I didn't notice the song being extra long, but I do feel like the solution was solved too quick.  But more from a 'pacing' point of view.

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:24 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

I guess it just bothers me to have parts of the show dictated by an unexplained force which isn't governed by any sort of rules. Maybe I would have been more comfortable with it if the ponies had questioned it more in season 5, and if it didn't constantly call attention to itself. To me, the show might as well just break the fourth wall and admit that's just what the writers felt like writing at that time. 

Well, that is part of the mystery behind the Map.  We don't really know what it's all about.  But I agree that I kind of wish they would gives us more details on it.  I mean, It was a new interesting mystery from the start with the cutie marks but it's like, they writers have for the most part abandoned giving us information about it.  I mean, ok we sometimes get a few small things, but not too much.  Like the episode before this one.

As for the g by rules, well, from what I understand, it's an extension of the Tree of Harmony, which is a magical 'force'/entity that can detect the balances of Frienship in the world (or at least in Maps borders.)  When it detects an 'unbalance' it will deduce the best way to solve it, and since it can not solve it itself (it doesn't have a physical form, at least not one that it can materialize as it needs.) or perhaps it's also doing it to help the Mane 6 (and others it sends) to grow.  So it's got 'rules' to an extent.  However, I would like to see more backstory with it.  I feel like they've put it on the backburner for a bit too long imo.  As in I feel like the writers have more treated it like a 'fact of life' and are just rolling with it at times.  Not to say they don't have a plan for it, but the way it's portrayed (including not even giving us like subtle clues or hints each time the map is used) it almost seems like they don't.

--

Side note: I find it funny how Twilight's like "Cutie Marks Don't lie".... I think she forgot when Discord used a spell to make a fake summons for them 

[Thrond 3,263]

3 hours ago, JCKane said:

Well, that is part of the mystery behind the Map.  We don't really know what it's all about.  But I agree that I kind of wish they would gives us more details on it.  I mean, It was a new interesting mystery from the start with the cutie marks but it's like, they writers have for the most part abandoned giving us information about it.  I mean, ok we sometimes get a few small things, but not too much.  Like the episode before this one.

As for the g by rules, well, from what I understand, it's an extension of the Tree of Harmony, which is a magical 'force'/entity that can detect the balances of Frienship in the world (or at least in Maps borders.)  When it detects an 'unbalance' it will deduce the best way to solve it, and since it can not solve it itself (it doesn't have a physical form, at least not one that it can materialize as it needs.) or perhaps it's also doing it to help the Mane 6 (and others it sends) to grow.  So it's got 'rules' to an extent.  However, I would like to see more backstory with it.  I feel like they've put it on the backburner for a bit too long imo.  As in I feel like the writers have more treated it like a 'fact of life' and are just rolling with it at times.  Not to say they don't have a plan for it, but the way it's portrayed (including not even giving us like subtle clues or hints each time the map is used) it almost seems like they don't.


I’m kinda okay with it being random and confusing as long as it doesn’t call attention to itself, but every time it does something new, I start to question its reasoning and the extent of its powers. And I dunno, I guess I miss the mundane scenarios of the early seasons; the fantastical stuff never really excites me.

[JCKane 345]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:00 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

I’m kinda okay with it being random and confusing as long as it doesn’t call attention to itself, but every time it does something new, I start to question its reasoning and the extent of its powers. And I dunno, I guess I miss the mundane scenarios of the early seasons; the fantastical stuff never really excites me.

Well, it's a bit of a mixed bag for myself.  I do enjoy the 'fantastical' stuff as I always enjoy it when they have the fun villain or special artifact they need to deal with.  But I feel like those were a bit more well written and I guess the 'interest' in the map as sort of run it's course.  Cuz I also enjoyed the 'mundane' scenarios of the earlier seasons... truth be told I'd say Seasons 1-3 are my favorites of the bunch.  But this is for more reasons than just that.

Including the "I just learned a friendship lesson" part.  cuz I feel in the first 3 seasons it made sense.  IN season 1, it was Twilight writing to her mentor about what she learned.  Season 2 continued the trend and I forget when they started writing in the book But still it felt more natural.  Now, since they no longer have that, portion it always feels so, out of place when they start the ending "I just learned a friendship lesson" part as they speak it right there to the ponies they learned it from... just, feels so odd and unnatural... So much so that they've even made fun of it a time or two

What would of been interesting is a progression in how Twilight (or whomever) presents the audience (the viewer of the series)  the lessons she's learned.  Like first you had the letters, then the book.  Maybe graudate that until a solo book twilight herself writes, or like a memoir or something?   Then with the school, they could of extended it further and maybe at the end of the episode you have Twilight actualy 'teaching' the students in class.  Pretty much the old 'letters' but she'd be speaking directly to her students.

Which would worked perfectly and made the graduation to a school honestly, that much more enjoyable as it was a natural progression for the 'I just learned a friendship lesson'... they could of even skipped the "Diary of a Princess" type thing or maybe had it in a "Princess of Friendship report to Celstria" or I dunno something... and kept the diary the 6 of them shared (allowing Twilight to start entries in it when she was introduced)… Or they could of even had Twilight telling the 'I just learned a friendship lesson' to Starlight.  and THEN to the school.

See, a lot more options for a natural progress to the "I just learned a Friendship lesson" than to force them to speak it outloud in the scenario like they do...  But alas...

 

[Tropical Melody 6,043]

Have only just managed to watch this episode properly - lurrve the Kirin, they're so cute ..

Deffo need more future eps with them . . .

 

 

 

[Kevin Tang 2,426]

"Kirins are cute."

Well I have to find out!

*Watches the episode*

Where does the ticket guy live? The surrounding doesn't seem to contain any shelter except for the ticket booth. 

What is actually a Kirin? A half pony with a massive branch-like horn and scales? Well I'm confused. 

All of those disaster happened because they literally made their homes out of flammable materials, despite knowing that they can get on fire everytime they are angry? Wow! That's kinda stupid  Can't they just made their village with nonflammable stuff? And I'm glad that we aren't the same as the Kirins. Imagine the disasters that could happen. 

That song is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen in season 8 

What a great episode with a great moral! And Kirins are unique and interesting, I gotta research more on them at the wiki. 

*Goes away*

Edited October 20, 2018 by Kevin Tang

[Tropical Melody 6,043]

1 hour ago, Kevin Tang said:

  Can't they just made their village with nonflammable stuff?

Then there'd be no story. There are stranger things in mythology.

 

[LucasB 196]

Not sure if it was mentioned already but I LOVE that Phantom of the Opera reference!

 

 

[Truffles 2,033]

On 10/1/2018 at 8:40 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

But also, even if they were physically capable of speech, what if they just don't want to talk? The Kirin are not under any obligation to talk to Applejack and Fluttershy, or to do anything else that Applejack and Fluttershy want them to do, and the Kirin could have many reasons why aren't doing so.

I agree with this, though it seems particularly in-character for Applejack: She strikes me as having the type of personality who gets offended if you refuse to talk to her. It's part-in-parcel with her presumed country-ishness. She was probably thinking, "It' ain't downright neighborly if somepony doesn't want to even give a friendly hello to new guests." So I can't say I was surprised to see her act that way.

On 10/1/2018 at 8:40 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

Another possibility is that the post-Stream of Silence Kirin are operating on cold, hard reasoning that doesn't involve higher-order human-like feelings. But it might be a non-trivial task to come up with reasoning for maintaining the Kirin's lifestyle and civilized society that doesn't invoke "feelings" at some point, and I'm not sure that I would be up to that task.

This is what I figured the stream did - it made them emotionless and everything they do now is only out of need. If they're hungry, they eat but they don't enjoy it. Every birthday is just another day. One way the stream made things worse, however, is it also seemed to strip them of pity, empathy and compassion. The kirins had no issue with throwing AJ and Fluttershy into the stream when they started arguing - it just seemed like the logical thing to do.This is worse because it essentially made them all into sociopaths. If the village was running short of food, they would likely have no issues with killing someone if it meant the end of starvation.

 

On 10/2/2018 at 9:49 AM, The Nth Doctor said:

So...uh...

Were any of the Kirin pregnant when they took the vow of silence? How long were they silent? Were any kids born during this period? How did they handle their parents being mute?

And this brings up an associated idea: It's likely the stream also quelled all aspects of love and lust, so aside from any of them who were already present, it's unlikely anyone was busy having kids. If they really are part-dragon, they may share the long lifespans of dragons so perhaps their leader figured increasing their population wasn't as important as keeping the peace?

 

On 10/1/2018 at 8:40 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

And after Autumn Blaze became "quite chatty", she says that she "drove my village batty", and that they "didn't like" her jokes, songs, news, plays, etc. Again, wouldn't those also be things that the Kirin who went through the Stream of Silence shouldn't be feeling?

It could be she's an unreliable narrator. Perhaps seem assumed she was driving them batty simply because they ignored her? In fact, most of the scenes of them showing feelings may just be due to her explaining things in song. However:

On 10/1/2018 at 8:40 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

A little later, when Applejack and Fluttershy start arguing over whether the Kirin should allow themselves to talk, the other Kirin who have gathered to observe start to look concerned or fearful that Applejack and Fluttershy will burst into flame or transform or something, and the Kirin do so again when they're about to dunk Applejack and Fluttershy in the Stream of Silence.

I can't think of a good explanation for this. This seems like an oversight on the animators or scriptwriter. Unless the stream made them into the equivalent of Vulcans and moments of extreme stress cause their emotions to show through? If that's the case, them the stream isn't as extreme as something like going through the Kolinahr.

On 10/1/2018 at 8:40 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

Speaking of which, does this ticket guy just live out of the ticket stand? Does he ever travel back to civilization at any point? Is he getting paid by somebody to be "on duty" out here

I think his state of mind pretty much answers that question. XD

On 10/1/2018 at 8:40 PM, Music Chart Fan said:

Finally, when one of the Kirin is playing charades to try to communicate to Autumn Blaze that they want to take the cure, Autumn Blaze gets angry, and one of the things she shouts is "Just write it down!", which is a good point. We saw Autumn Blaze distributing newspapers and Variety reviews in her song earlier, so the Kirin seem to have written language. Did the Stream of Silence somehow modify the Kirins' brains so that they're incapable of writing, as well as speaking?

I kept expecting to see AJ have them ask to write answers on paper, but perhaps that despite their ability to speak ponish, perhaps they use an alphabet that wouldn't be recognizable by ponies? It's kind of a stretch but it's the only explanation I can think of as to why they didn't try to use writing to begin with.