S09:E08 - Frenemies

[Props Valroa 26,160]

Just now, Sparklefan1234 said:

 

I feel like this could happen at some point in the future. 

Reforming on their own would be a good lesson as it does not take others to realize one's own faults. Sometimes.

[Sparklefan1234 162,188]

1 minute ago, Califorum said:

Reforming on their own would be a good lesson as it does not take others to realize one's own faults. Sometimes.

 

I would like Tirek to reform. He seems like he's halfway there already, IMO. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Sparklefan1234

[Props Valroa 26,160]

2 minutes ago, Sparklefan1234 said:

 

I would like Tirek to reform. He seems like he's halfway there already, IMO. 

I wouldn't mind if they all reformed, just as long as they do it on their own. If now, I'd like to see them banished to the stars as constellations.

[AlbaTross 1,581]

I'm a little behind of the episode, but I saw it, and it's good.  I'm glad we got an episode just starring villains.  They're all getting reformed in the end, aren't they?

[Zantetsuken 364]

2 hours ago, AlbaTross said:

I'm a little behind of the episode, but I saw it, and it's good.  I'm glad we got an episode just starring villains.  They're all getting reformed in the end, aren't they?

here's what I think will happen 

(just a theory here but)
In the finale Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow will team up with the Mane 6 or whoever to defeat Grogar and they will be reformed
So yes, most likely, but not Grogar

[Senko 459]

1 hour ago, Zantetsuken said:

here's what I think will happen 

(just a theory here but)
In the finale Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow will team up with the Mane 6 or whoever to defeat Grogar and they will be reformed
So yes, most likely, but not Grogar

I was thinking similar except I picture him getting his bell defeating the whoever and then being taken down by the other villains because his ultimate plan goes too far even for them (possibly with "You're new home my mind enslaved pets." as he prepares to turn them into something).

[Music Chart Fan 818]

Overall, I would probably call this an okay episode. It serves to advance the plot for this season while introducing some twists, and it has some good moments. For example, it was interesting to see Chrysalis feeding off of love again, and cocooning her prey. I liked Tirek's sitting back and just letting the other two fail. And I liked that Rusty Bucket didn't fall for Cozy Glow's "golly gee, poor pitiful me" shtick, which resulted in her "true nature" being shown, and her subsequent failures at going it alone. However, I also found that this episode exhibits an (seemingly increasing) overreliance on contorted and hyper-exaggerated facial expressions for entertainment, particularly with Cozy Glow (but also with the others), and I'm not particularly a fan of that. I don't think I have any super in-depth points to make, so I'll just write my observations below in episode order.

I do kind of wonder why Grogar continues to keep the other villains around, considering their self-centeredness, obnoxiousness, and (seeming) incompetence. Grogar says in this episode that he doesn't trust anything that any of them say, and he has to threaten them in order to get them to do anything. (Plus, I wonder if Grogar realizes that people generally resent being forced to do things under threat, and will look to avoid or do the bare minimum of work under such conditions.) Grogar also hasn't been making much of any effort to work with the other villains; so far, he's just repeatedly told them and threatened them to work together while he just does his own thing. I guess we'll see if Grogar's aloofness and lack of investment in working with the others is all part of his plan, and will play into later episodes.

As I saw someone else point out, Queen Chrysalis is only a queen if other people recognize her as such, and right now, she's not really a "queen" of anything.

Where did, for example, the arts and crafts supplies for Cozy Glow's poster come from, or the cupcakes that were at the team meeting? Those don't seem like the kinds of things that Grogar would just have lying around.

Chrysalis tells Cozy Glow that she "doesn't do meetings". But what about when she was queen of the changelings? Would she not have had meetings, even if only to give orders to commanders or such? For example, in "To Where And Back Again - Part 1", the changelings who were impersonating the Mane Seven gave a report to Chrysalis in the Cutie Map room; does that not count as a meeting?

I could see how Chrysalis might have some reason to believe that she could overcome the magical winds "preventing anypony from reaching [Mt. Everhoof's] peak", because she could transform into other animals that might be better suited to scaling the mountain. But after the three villains go their separate ways, Cozy Glow also believes that she'll get to the top first and be waiting for the other two. How did Cozy Glow believe, at that point in time, that she could overcome the magical winds specifically designed to "prevent anypony from reaching [Mt. Everhoof's] peak"? She wouldn't seem to have any particular physical advantage. Had she already seen Rusty Bucket's house and expected to recruit whomever's living there (using her special talent) to help her reach the top?

Rusty Bucket tells Cozy Glow "I'm the guardian of this here mountain. It's my job to keep ponies from heading up". So who gave him that job? Is he being paid for it? Perhaps Gusty the Great tasked Rusty Bucket's ancestors with guarding the mountain, and that responsibility has been handed down through the generations (with their family having to live off the land). But if so, then who's next in line to fulfill this duty, if, as Rusty Bucket says, "there ain't been ponies around here in I-don't-know-how-many moons"? Does Rusty have any other family? Is anyone else aware that Rusty is here doing this job? This reminds me a bit of the ticket pony that Applejack and Fluttershy ran into in "Sounds Of Silence" - someone just doing a job alone, out in the middle of nowhere, with essentially no contact with pony society.

Also, if "there ain't been ponies around here in I-don't-know-how-many moons", then how did Rusty get a copy of the Friendship Journal? In "Fame And Misfortune", we see the copies of the Friendship Journal being distributed by book stores, news stands, or by Twilight in person. And Rusty's statement above would seem to preclude, say, somebody delivering mail to him. We don't know if it was even possible to get a copy of the Journal by mail, or if anyone would know where he is in order to, say, teleport a copy to him. Did Rusty abandon his post to go to some town relatively recently, and he bought a copy there himself?

When the three villains are sitting around the campfire, Cozy Glow grabs her toasted marshmallow with her bare hooves and pulls it off the stick before eating it. Even if we assume that it's not too hot (if it's at a safe temperature to eat), I know from experience making s'mores that toasted marshmallows make a sticky mess that isn't easy to clean. Wouldn't eating the marshmallow off the stick be less liable to make her hooves sticky and messy?

Referring back to the events of "Twilight's Kingdom", Tirek tells the other two "You should've seen Twilight's face when her friends appeared in bubbles around me. She was all...", followed by Tirek contorting his face and making exaggerated groans. But if we go back to that scene in "Twilight's Kingdom - Part 2", Twilight actually didn't make a contorted facial expression, and she had a shocked intake of breath, but didn't scream or groan or anything like that.

When the villainous three bury Rusty and his house in snow and walk by him to approach Mr. Everhoof, what is Rusty supposed to do? Is he supposed to try to stop them himself? Is he supposed to inform some higher authority of the attempt to breach the mountain?

That vine across the ravine stays surprisingly stiff and straight when both Chrysalis and Tirek are making their way across it.

Cozy Glow says to Tirek to keep the hole in the magical barrier open, or else she'll be trapped forever. But why would that be? If Tirek became too tired to keep the hole open, could he not just rest and do it again later? It doesn't look as though Tirek's opening a hole in the barrier was permanently using his magic or anything.

The villainous three are shown to enjoy having worked together to retrieve Grogar's bell, before they reiterate that they totally aren't going to succumb to the magic of friendship. But people can work together on things (or make trades, etc.) just because they each expect to benefit from doing so, even without becoming friends or turning to "the good side" or anything like that. So if this is intended to foreshadow their eventual reformation, I wouldn't necessarily see that as a good argument for eventually "turning good".

Grogar's bell is glowing at the end of the episode, when it wasn't earlier. Is there any significance to that? Would Grogar be able to feel the bell's presence, even if he didn't see it directly?

[Senko 459]

I think Rusty was sort of a park ranger he wasn't there to protect the cavern at the top of the mountain he was there to protect ponies from trying to climb the extremely dangerous mountain that could kill them.

[GiFTGewEhrSCHutzen-4 8,827]

Now this is a first. A Mane 6 Rogues' gallery episode, and no Mane 6 featured in this episode. 

[Lucky Bolt 34,957]

I really enjoyed this episode.  I love the dynamic between Cozy, Chryssy and Tirek and I love how they only developed it more in this episode. 

[ImpctR 155]

On 5/19/2019 at 6:34 AM, Truffles said:

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Equestrian version of "The Throat of the World!" Though I doubt Paarthurnax (or any other dragon) is busy being philosophical up there. XD

I don't know it by this word but in a broader definition this looks like the Canadian Taiga and because this is Equestria, there is the Mount in the middle of it.

 

On 5/19/2019 at 1:01 AM, ShootingStar159 said:

Spoiler

 

Holy moly didn't realize that was a Mean Twilight piece.. freaky (I recall only them turning back to regular branches not pieces of actual pony)

 

On 5/19/2019 at 7:02 AM, qwerE said:

I really wonder what the villain 3's next plan will be. My guess on the story is probably that they'll try to fight Twilight on their own without Grogar and fail, but learn about the magic of friendship in the process and become Twilight's friends, then fight Grogar as a team with the mane 6 in the finale.

The one thing that makes the alarm about it is currently there are a whole too many heroes/champions. Luna and Celestia alone should be a power, I suppose they are all just the first group with Cadence, Shining Armor and the Mane 6-7. Then there are the Pillars of Equestria who get forgotten but really it's because they should not be stealing the spotlight. Then there is Discord that can do a lot of things alone. THE BALANACE OF POWERS is not there, The Good side is way way ahead. What will happen if Chrys, Tirek, Cozy and all mentioned turned against Grogar. What about the Dragons, Yaks, Changelings? I suppose the latter do not need to participate since their lands are not threatened but even so, too many champions, School Six also and CMC's , villains are becoming too little to withstand ALL the good powers.

 

Oh and will Tempest come or make a cameo finally? She's the only one not mentioned from a lot of other references like Klugetown, Mount Eris and the Hyppos. I don't know if we will see something like lord of the rings kind battle of races but the villains are too WEAK! Unless Grogar is some demigod. A recent fighting game I am playing raises this thing of good side being too OP, and someone taking measures to balance it out. Storm King perhaps is not reliable for Grogar, maybe, and he looked kind of dead.

 

Few other missed observations from the episode:

- The villains had their 'To where and back again' with this whole quest to Mount Everhoof. They also made their 'Campfire tales' and it felt a little like 'Dragon Quest'.

I wonder if the drawing of Cozy Glow SOMEHOW made it out of Grogar's Caves Under The Flooded Castle Ruins and the startling smiling four villains are seen in Ponyville OR the Mane 6-7-8 will Go There (Grogar's Lair) And Back Again.

- Cozy still felt least fave of the villains to me. Her spoiled brat behavior seen with Rusty Bucket and how she's still a filly acting like an angry kid, she has no powers, no alicorn like Flurry Heart, make her look more OP than she is supposed to be. She is more irritating than Diamond Tiara.

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by ImpctR

[CheeryFox 23,811]

Chrysalis and her insults. Lulz. 

[Metemponychosis 1,238]

Now, that was something I didn't expect to see in MLP. Better than letting the bad guys vanish until the finale, but... I'm disappointed Sombra didn't return.

Before the episode I was thinking I didn't care for Grogar since he's so new, Chrysalis is a failed queen that didn't even manage to bounce back and I have no clue why, Tyrek was already beaten, so whatever... And Cozy Glow is a kid. I wish MLP hadn't doubled down on her.

In the intro... It was just sad. It seems that the formula is to turn characters into petty idiots and that makes them likable. Seriously, I miss Discord as a villain. Nightmare Moon. I miss the old Chrysalis, and I just can't take out of my head the image of her carrying around a phalic object. What the hell DHX?! At least that set up the stage properly for the rest of the episode.

Past that, the episode was hilarious to the end, and even turned good somewhere along the way. That song, my god, that song was pure gold.

Cozy reminds me of that villain from the Batman animated series. But Cozy actually IS a kid. She's just weird. And if Chrysalis can go around absorbing love from creatures, why wasn't she doing that? Regardless, I loved the episode. More than I expected, but I swear that if they defeat Grogar in the end... Just no.

What made the episode good was that these characters stopped being their stereotyped selves and acted like normal people would. I didn't believe that the episode could pull it off. The wonders of actually starring in your own episode. Seriously, I wish I could see a similar episode with Celestia. She could use some of the credibility these 'villains' got in this episode: this ability to break from the parody of their archetype and simply be, have agency in the plot of the episode and come up on top because of their actions, not because someone pulled them through.

[Truffles 2,033]

On 5/20/2019 at 2:27 AM, Music Chart Fan said:

Also, if "there ain't been ponies around here in I-don't-know-how-many moons", then how did Rusty get a copy of the Friendship Journal? In "Fame And Misfortune", we see the copies of the Friendship Journal being distributed by book stores, news stands, or by Twilight in person. And Rusty's statement above would seem to preclude, say, somebody delivering mail to him. We don't know if it was even possible to get a copy of the Journal by mail, or if anyone would know where he is in order to, say, teleport a copy to him. 

Perhaps when he says no one has been around, he was referring to anyone just coming to visit and not including someone like the mail pony who is just there to make deliveries? I could see him doing all of his shopping through mail order since there aren't any stores nearby. Which leads to the bigger question as to how he feeds himself since the climate isn't conducive to growing the kind of food ponies eat. (Maybe his house backs up to a cave filled with mushrooms - but can horses eat those?)

It's also possible that he's having food and shopping catalogs teleported to him, as you suggested. Certainly we've seen in past episodes the princesses (and Starlight) have that power. Even a relatively powerful unicorn from the nearest town might be tasked with getting him food items and his mail.

On 5/20/2019 at 2:27 AM, Music Chart Fan said:

But if we go back to that scene in "Twilight's Kingdom - Part 2", Twilight actually didn't make a contorted facial expression, and she had a shocked intake of breath, but didn't scream or groan or anything like that. 

Maybe he just remembers it that way so it's easier for him to sleep at night? XD

On 5/20/2019 at 2:27 AM, Music Chart Fan said:

Cozy Glow says to Tirek to keep the hole in the magical barrier open, or else she'll be trapped forever. But why would that be? If Tirek became too tired to keep the hole open, could he not just rest and do it again later?

Yeah, that line didn't make a lot of sense. Unless - perhaps he was using up Chrysalis' magic to keep it open? Cozy would be stuck in there until he could steal magic from an equally powerful creature? (That might take awhile, lol.) But if that was the case, then there shouldn't be much magic to transfer back to her at the end of that scene.

Also, hasn't Cerberus noticed he and Cozy are missing from Tartarus by now? Can Cerberus let anyone know if someone has escaped? Last season we saw Luna can open a portal into there, so it makes me wonder how often  she checks up on things. But perhaps the ponies never bother checking since Twilight had to do an explicit check to make sure no evil creatures escaped in "It's About Time" and the finale last season?

 

22 hours ago, ImpctR said:

I don't know it by this word but in a broader definition this looks like the Canadian Taiga and because this is Equestria, there is the Mount in the middle of it.

The main reason it reminded me of the mountain in Skyrim is because The Throat of the World has powerful weather that prevents the player from getting to the top until they learn the Clear Skies shout. There might even be a barrier that blocks the player if they manage to get through the weather; I can't remember for sure since it's been awhile since I tried scaling the mountain before I was supposed to, lol.

[Yfus 28]

The only song in this season I like.

 

I love them because of the fact that they rebelled against big goat Grogar. I don't like him.

[Music Chart Fan 818]

2 hours ago, Truffles said:

Also, hasn't Cerberus noticed he and Cozy are missing from Tartarus by now? Can Cerberus let anyone know if someone has escaped? Last season we saw Luna can open a portal into there, so it makes me wonder how often  she checks up on things. But perhaps the ponies never bother checking since Twilight had to do an explicit check to make sure no evil creatures escaped in "It's About Time" and the finale last season?

That's a good point. As far as I remember, we never learned how Tirek was sending and receiving letters to/from Cozy Glow while he was in Tartarus, so Tartarus may not be as secure as everyone might think that it is. And considering how many powerful villains have been defeated just to come back later, along with the who-knows-how-many powerful magical artifacts scattered around Equestria, we might think that Celestia and Luna and the residents of Equestria ought to keep a pretty close eye on the villains that they do have in custody, to make sure that they aren't up to something, being broken out of jail, etc.

[Zestanor 98]

Rusty... Gusty...

connection?

[KawaiiYandere 83]

I liked it overall. Cool that it stars villains. Just saw it lol

i just wanna see Grogar's butt get kicked someday

[Justin_Case001 4,860]

What's poning, ponles?

Not bad.  Not too bad at all.  I liked it a lot more than I thought I would, actually.  My favorite episodes have always been the ones with no villains, and I've always felt like villains on this show can be a little dorky and cringy.  It's a common problem with basically all kid's cartoons.  I always tend to roll my eyes when the villains do their villain-y speech with the "mwa ha haa" laugh.  It's almost never done in a way that doesn't sound corny.  That's why Starlight made the best villain, because she was a real villain, not a corny, cackling super villain.  That said, I still like the FIM super villains, and I've always wished they'd develop them and make them really good.  I was thrilled to see that they finally devoted a whole episode just to developing the villains.  That's a first.  Took eight years, but it's really nice to see.

They finally had some moments where they seemed real and genuine, and I actually started becoming interested in them as characters.  Their chemistry was great.  It was almost sweet when Chrissy caught Cozy and kept her from falling.  It was also kinda creepy how Cozy put her hoof right through Chrissy's leg hole.    Creepy. but, kinda cool.    I really love how they actually started to develop some emotions, started successfully working together, and had a moment where they realized the benefits of cooperation.  There's a lot of layers, here.  It's interesting how they stumbled onto this paradox that destroying friendship might entail becoming friends, and the fear that they're becoming that which they hate.  What will they do?  Will they embrace partnership more?  It was really neat to see Chrissy give Tirek her magic, and them him to give it back.  That was big.  Really big.  I'm sure it's the first time in each of their lives that they gave something away instead of just taking.  She helped him with no guarantee that he would keep his word, and he in turn kept his word for no other reason than to do by right by her.  That was... kinda awesome, actually.  But at the same time, terrifying.  What would they be capable of if they really did cooperate?  But in the end, evil doesn't share power.  That's the difference between good and evil.  Say they all worked together and won the day, and Equestria belonged to the villains--what then?  You think they're going to rule together as bestest bad buds?  No way.  Evil doesn't stay evil if it works together.  It tears itself apart until only one remains.  That's why there can only be one dark lord of the Sith any given time.  But they're already starting to see the benefits of cooperation, which can only mean one thing:

On 5/19/2019 at 9:01 PM, Zantetsuken said:

here's what I think will happen 

(just a theory here but)
In the finale Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow will team up with the Mane 6 or whoever to defeat Grogar and they will be reformed
So yes, most likely, but not Grogar

Yup.  You nailed it.  That's what going to happen.  *Sigh*.  I've long been a fierce anti-Chrissy & Tirek reform advocate, but.... *SIGH*... I guess there could be worse things than this.  The worst would be if the villains were just won over by another simple "take my hoof in friendship" speech by Twilight.  And I don't imagine Grumbles sharing power.  He'll probably betray them in the end and take everything for himself.  So, if the villains' choice is to be destroyed or side with the mane 6 to stop Grover, then it would make sense.  I guess I can swallow that.  And at least they're already doing some development of them, having a brief moment where they felt something positive for each other.  They're easing into it so that a reform would actually be believable and make some sense.  Just don't make it too easy, okay?  If they do get reformed, it would be nice if the villains... idk, maybe promised a truce, but also sort of left and went their own way or something, and the rest would be left up to our imagination.  Please don't just have Tirek and Chrissy join in a big group hug with the mane 7 and sing a lovey-dovey song about friendship.  Please no.  Do it more like X2: X-Men United, y'know?  Ooh, I'd love to see a scene with, say, Gallus sitting next to Tirek, and Gallus says, "So they say yer the bad guy," and Tirek says, "Is that what they say?"

The only thing I didn't care for in this episode was the song.  Why must they always waste a song on something so dopey?  None of them were good singers, and it was just unnecessary and... so dopey.  Why does everyone seem to love it so much?  Does everyone just think it's fun and cute to see the villains sing or something?  I guess I just don't get it.

[ImpctR 155]

22 hours ago, Truffles said:

Also, hasn't Cerberus noticed he and Cozy are missing from Tartarus by now? Can Cerberus let anyone know if someone has escaped?

Perhaps Cerberus will woof woof to Fluttershy how the two vanished if they ever needed to check up on Tartarus. Which is why I mentioned the possible stimuli to do it was if that poster with the happy four villains appeared outside somehow.

5 hours ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Please don't just have Tirek and Chrissy join in a big group hug with the mane 7 and sing a lovey-dovey song about friendship.

Ya I've similar thoughts, perhaps this is not the way to see them with all this group hug and songs. The way Tempest did was better, speaking of which.. where is she 

Edited May 22, 2019 by ImpctR

[Sunlight Glisten 368]

Tirek was hilarious!!!! And yet still completely tirek. He made the episode. 

I think the poison of friendship is taking root....

Wonder what crysilis will look like in happy channeling form? Will tirek reconcile with his brother scorpan? 

[Varrack 1,080]

Terrific episode - I watched it with some friends when I was at EFNW 2019 last weekend. The song was brilliant - I've already saved some remixes of it on youtube. The fact that they kind of had this love/hate relationship with working as a team makes it just fascinating. It makes me really curious what's going to go down between them and Grogar...if they end up siding with the ponies in order to take him down or if their group collapses to infighting and Grogar ends up trying to conquer Equestria himself.

[Loyal Defender 4,111]

So the first thing I want to mention is the brilliance of the song that I did not expect them to sing. The fact that they were all singing about how they want to be bad in a whole new way and deal with the mane six and  twilight it’s absolutely genius and hilarious. They all have their different ways of wanting to go about things but none of them can seem to come to an agreement.

 

Cozy glow is trying to be the leader like she was in the season eight finale by claiming that Grogar left her in charge.

Chrysalis is talking to a purple wooden log that I know for a fact used to be mean twilight.

Tirek it of course trying to regain his strength. By exercising because there’s no magic to drain. It’s his time to get physical, physical!

 

Now as for the bit of them trying to regain the bell from Mount Everhoof (Which is the Mount Everest pun), which if I may make a comment here, someone needs to slice those bells off of Grogar’s neck because I’m pretty sure that’s where he gets its power from. Chrysalis is known for using her instincts to make her way up the mountain by turning into a creature that could fit the situation she’s in to easily resolve it. 
Tirek is using his natural instinct to think outside the box and do things like throwing dirt to test the power of the wind and creating things out of branches, vines and leaves. 
Cozy glow is using  her instinct is to be manipulative and adorable and try to get her way by way of words. Although I feel bad for Rust Bucket or whatever his name is. Just a lonely old crotchety pony who just got turned down because the princess of friendship’s book protected him from the evil manipulative words of cozy glow.  Although I do find it pretty funny that afterwards Cozy glow just had all sorts of trouble trying to get up the mountain and rust bucket is just sitting there, like, “Nope, can’t go up that way. Nope not that way either.”

So far this episode has proved to be very interesting, and it’s really really nice with how they are portraying villains as being general characters getting into arguments and situations that they wouldn’t expect themselves to be in. They’re interacting like normal show characters while also remaining villains and I love it. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Loyal Defender

[KawaiiYandere 83]

I guess I'm fine with Chrysalis being reformed, but I don't want her to look a whole lot different. I've always liked her character design.

[Loyal Defender 4,111]

I can already tell you now that this one moment is going to be in one of watchpony’s top 10 lists. 

 

“Tirek, Chrysalis And Cozy Glow Bond. Naturally seeing villains bond wouldn’t exactly be a good thing to most people, but in this case seeing this triad of villains working together and realizing just how much better they are as a team it’s almost heartwarming in a way when they finally understand the concept of teamwork.”

 

I can already assume that they’re going to use that mysterious bell against Equestria  and possibly Grogar as well.