How bad is racism/sexism, etc in the MLP fandom?

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

2 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Did you see my post explaining why the N word is not just a sound due to the history.

On your first point, I respectfully disagree. I don't think it works like that.

I was just reading it. But you didn’t really seem to consider what I said. ALL words are sounds. The only reason the n-word means anything is because people agree that it means something. Otherwise, it would just be gibberish. That’s how language works. Like how dab is a type of fish, but now it also the name of a stupid dance move.

I will agree that it still shouldn’t be used, because it hurts people, and to me, that’s a good enough reason to not say it. I don’t like to hurt people’s feelings. But not everyone is so empathetic.

On a sort of related tangent, being inconsiderate doesn’t automatically equate to racism. Because are you actually racist? Or are you just self-centered? Neither is good, but it’s a thought. Is a person actually a racist if they just don’t care about anyone other than themselves?

I ask because your argument is that someone MUST be racist if they do something despite others asking them not to. You say that if they don’t care about that hypothetical black person’s feelings, then they just don’t care about black people in general. But what if they just don’t care about ANYONE’S feelings?

Still a sucky person, but not necessarily a racist sucky person. But that’s just a side thought.

Oh no, it totally works like that. It’s happened to me. Not with a slur, but see, I rather dislike swear words. But I would watch videos with people that were rather foul-mouthed. Whatever right? It’s not like I’M saying it. But then, sure enough, I casually said s**t in front of others, immediately followed by my hand shooting up to my mouth.

Trash in, trash out. Whatever you surround yourself with will eventually begin to influence you.

[Clod 8,293]

17 hours ago, Nightmare Terror said:

a lot of people DRAW images of the ponies having *** and doing other things! It’s abominable that people draw 4 FEMALE ponies and make them have ***!

That, my dude, is homophobia. You're being homophobic.

[Outnick 1,228]

58 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Hm. 

Got a question for the female members here. How often have you had to beat back awkward male bronies who engage you in conversation because of the novelty that you are a woman? Not exclusively here, but considering all the other fandom haunts you may frequent. 

How many of these interactions have come across as the guy trying to suss out if you are .... how can I put this delicately .... available and interested? How often have you felt it is jnnocent .... and how often have you been creeped out? 

this happens to you in this fandom?....

[Jeric 46,836]

Just now, Outnick<3 said:

this happens to you in this fandom?....

Oh no, not to me personally. I am just honestly curious as to the experiences of others. Several of the women who have posted in this thread are fairly level headed, so I expect that should they respond, they would say something that would help enlighten me. Goat commented earlier along the lines of how we should be differentiating between sexism and harassment, and not looking for something that isn't in plain sight (paraphrasing that). I want to see if we could explore these thoughts a little more. 

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

On 5/25/2018 at 5:52 PM, ShadowSJG said:

You have no right to tell women and minorities what is or isn't sexist for them.

Just noticed this line. Buddy, you have to be careful with that kind of thinking. You are putting ALL the power in one side’s hands. You’re saying that they get to make all the calls on this topic. And contrary to what you might believe, there are those unscrupulous characters out there that will abuse this attitude for their own benefit.

For example, one of my managers (who is a white woman) works as a manager at another store as well. And one time she caught wind of a couple of customers that were BLATANTLY trying to pull a scam on the store. They were trying to return merchandise they had never even purchased (I won’t explain exactly how they do that, because I don’t want to give potential dirt bags any ideas). So my manager told them she couldn’t take the return without a receipt, which was true. But they’d been able to trick other managers before, and when my manager refused, these people (who were black) accused her of being a racist.

Fortunately the cashier, a friend of my manager’s, was ALSO black, and immediately jumped to her defense. And then later she followed them out into the parking lot when no one was looking, told them that people like them were the cause of all sorts of disgusting racial crap. And when the people were all surprised and like, “Well you didn’t act like this while in the store”, the cashier said, “I’m not on camera anymore... don’t you ever come back to this store again.”

What a bad@$$.

That is an extreme example, but my point still stands. Racism and sexism is the act of treating others differently because you think they’re inferior. It is NOT, you hurt my fee-fees or mildly inconvenienced me, so I’m going to label you as a bigot and try and ruin you.

Edited May 27, 2018 by ShadOBabe

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jeric said:

Hm. 

Got a question for the female members here. How often have you had to beat back awkward male bronies who engage you in conversation because of the novelty that you are a woman? Not exclusively here, but considering all the other fandom haunts you may frequent. 

How many of these interactions have come across as the guy trying to suss out if you are .... how can I put this delicately .... available and interested? How often have you felt it is jnnocent .... and how often have you been creeped out? 

I'd say regularly. I get approached maybe once per week on average, and a good majority of those are people trying to roleplay or immediately ask personal or even intimate questions. I wouldn't exactly call it unflattering at all times, but I am in no way interested in this kind of thing and I am not typically nice about it either. If a person comes with unsolicited intimacy, I immediately have the upper hand in that conversation and I always use it if I feel like it's just unwarranted. 

For the innocent situation you mentioned- like people just asking if I would be interested in that sort of thing- I am much less hostile and just let them down easily. There is no need to be nasty to good-natured people and there's no need to string them along either

 

[Wonderbolt Slipstream 263]

It's all perspective.

[Twiggy 2,965]

I've not seen any personally, aside from those AltBrony guys, but they're really cringy so it's best to pretend that they don't exist.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Twiggy

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Jeric said:

Got a question for the female members here. How often have you had to beat back awkward male bronies who engage you in conversation because of the novelty that you are a woman?

There have been a few instances in the past, yes. Not on a regular basis though. The worst experience was with a guy that was constantly creeping on me even though I also kindly kept telling him to go away, not to mention he was already dating my best friend at the time. I think the worst thing that he said to me was that he'd kill himself if I didn't say I love him. He wasn't a creep just on the internet either as the same person has forcefully held me on his lap in a meetup, picked me up without asking, and dropped me in ankle-deep river water.

It's not just the brony fandom though - there's another website where I posted a picture of myself a couple of times and some of the comments were plain disgusting. That kind of thing happens in loads of fandoms and it kind of turns me off the entire fandom thing in general.

[ShadowSJG 62]

19 hours ago, ShadOBabe said:

Just noticed this line. Buddy, you have to be careful with that kind of thinking. You are putting ALL the power in one side’s hands. You’re saying that they get to make all the calls on this topic. And contrary to what you might believe, there are those unscrupulous characters out there that will abuse this attitude for their own benefit.

For example, one of my managers (who is a white woman) works as a manager at another store as well. And one time she caught wind of a couple of customers that were BLATANTLY trying to pull a scam on the store. They were trying to return merchandise they had never even purchased (I won’t explain exactly how they do that, because I don’t want to give potential dirt bags any ideas). So my manager told them she couldn’t take the return without a receipt, which was true. But they’d been able to trick other managers before, and when my manager refused, these people (who were black) accused her of being a racist.

Fortunately the cashier, a friend of my manager’s, was ALSO black, and immediately jumped to her defense. And then later she followed them out into the parking lot when no one was looking, told them that people that them were the cause of all sorts of disgusting racial crap. And when the people were all surprised and like, “Well you didn’t act like this while in the store”, the cashier said, “I’m not on camera anymore... don’t you ever come back to this store again.”

What a bad@$$.

That is an extreme example, but my point still stands. Racism and sexism is the act of treating others differently because you think they’re inferior. It is NOT, you hurt my fee-fees or mildly inconvenienced me, so I’m going to label you as a bigot and try and ruin you.

Yeah, let me explain why this is wrong. What I mean is that since women and minorities have historically been victims of racism/sexism, we should listen to their voices the most when it comes to this. I know there are those who abuse it but also letting those who aren't part of those groups to define it leads to huge abuse and overlooks those instances as shown by examples in this thread.

This thread is showing me that the fandom might overlook racism/sexism.

[Jeric 46,836]

4 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

Yeah, let me explain why this is wrong. What I mean is that since women and minorities have historically been victims of racism/sexism, we should listen to their voices the most when it comes to this. I know there are those who abuse it but also letting those who aren't part of those groups to define it leads to huge abuse and overlooks those instances as shown by examples in this thread.

This thread is showing me that the fandom might overlook racism/sexism.

Interesting. I bolded a part of your response as I really want to zero in on that part. First, and this is just a casual observation, it might be worthwhile to point out that you are advocating placing an emphasis on deferring to women with respect to their views and opinions on sexism, while dismissing several female's views on the subject. Can you elaborate as to why one opinion is valid over another? How are you reconciling this contradiction? 

 

As far as my opinion on what you said, I try, within reason, to be open to listening to every view and perspective since we all experience the world in unique ways, and one group does not have a monopoly on truth. I may disagree with their perspective, but I will always try and at least understand it before assigning judgement or weight. Opinions that are thoughtful deserve consideration, irrespective of their origin. Focus on thoughtful. 

 

I'll have to circle back regarding the responses to my earlier question later tonight. In the interim, I'll eagerly await your response as well. 

[The Recherche 29,965]

8 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

Yeah, let me explain why this is wrong. What I mean is that since women and minorities have historically been victims of racism/sexism, we should listen to their voices the most when it comes to this.

Why, if I may ask? I kinda get what you're saying... but at the same time, our ancestors don't speak for us, positive or negative; we've only inherited the world they have created. We're all individuals, and we live in a world created by other individuals.  For example, sexism in the 1940s was the Gender Wage Gap. Is any woman then allowed to define sexism, simply due to sharing the gender of those women way back when? For another example, is any black individual allowed to define racism, due to their ancestors being seen as 3/5 of a person, and outright slaves? To be perfectly frank, I would say no to both of these. 

Do you want to know of a group that is qualified to seriously talk about sexism in the modern day? Women in the Middle East, who can be stoned due to not wearing the correct clothing, or just being flat-out raped due to dodgy at best sexual assault laws. These people are in a much better position to talk about sexism, because they are literally suffering from it. That's the defining difference here; one woman is putting herself in a position to define sexism, simply due to another woman's suffering, whether it was in the past or present... all because they share each other's sex. At best, this kind of thing is naive. At worst, it's outright manipulative. Exceptions can be made if one goes out of their way to research sexism or racism, but that's not what I'm talking about here; I'm talking about people being placed on pedestals and being allowed to speak authoritatively on certain issues due to them sharing a trait with a victim.

Basically, one's race, gender, sexuality, or anything in between doesn't automatically put someone in a better position to talk about certain issues. Do you want me to give a personal example? My great grandmother probably assisted the German Empire in World War 1. Do you think that I wanted the Central Powers to win? Of course not! Does this make put me in a position to talk about Germany's modern economic struggles, simply due to the horrid effects the Treaty of Versailles had on my ancestors? Absolutely not.

Times change, and individuals change as a circumstance of that, whether they are born in a certain era, or are raised in it. I agree with your general idea; if there is any blatant sexism, racism, or outright harassment in the MLP community, it should be called out... but we need to be careful what qualifies as racism or sexism, and we shouldn't place others on pedestals due to things that have occurred in the past, or even in different parts of the world. Everyone is an individual, and one individual can't speak for another, simply due to a common trait.

[Twiggy 2,965]

5 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

This thread is showing me that the fandom might overlook racism/sexism.

That's because there is no real way to deal with it. If people are being blatant assholes, sure you can ban them and that happens in spades on this forum, but you will not likely be able to change their opinions. They will still exist, and probably still like MLP. Exposing and ostracizing them may keep them out of your line of sight personally, but they can always come back later with another username, so you've not solved the problem. Also, opening them up to mass persecution for their opinions would do nothing but harden their heart to the idea of your positions. Ignoring them and letting them have their little corner of the internet is all you can do tbh.

That being said, I am willing to hear out your detailed plan to deal with them.

 

 

[ShadowSJG 62]

3 hours ago, The Recherche said:

Why, if I may ask? I kinda get what you're saying... but at the same time, our ancestors don't speak for us, positive or negative; we've only inherited the world they have created. We're all individuals, and we live in a world created by other individuals.  For example, sexism in the 1940s was the Gender Wage Gap. Is any woman then allowed to define sexism, simply due to sharing the gender of those women way back when? For another example, is any black individual allowed to define racism, due to their ancestors being seen as 3/5 of a person, and outright slaves? To be perfectly frank, I would say no to both of these. 

Do you want to know of a group that is qualified to seriously talk about sexism in the modern day? Women in the Middle East, who can be stoned due to not wearing the correct clothing, or just being flat-out raped due to dodgy at best sexual assault laws. These people are in a much better position to talk about sexism, because they are literally suffering from it. That's the defining difference here; one woman is putting herself in a position to define sexism, simply due to another woman's suffering, whether it was in the past or present... all because they share each other's sex. At best, this kind of thing is naive. At worst, it's outright manipulative. Exceptions can be made if one goes out of their way to research sexism or racism, but that's not what I'm talking about here; I'm talking about people being placed on pedestals and being allowed to speak authoritatively on certain issues due to them sharing a trait with a victim.

Basically, one's race, gender, sexuality, or anything in between doesn't automatically put someone in a better position to talk about certain issues. Do you want me to give a personal example? My great grandmother probably assisted the German Empire in World War 1. Do you think that I wanted the Central Powers to win? Of course not! Does this make put me in a position to talk about Germany's modern economic struggles, simply due to the horrid effects the Treaty of Versailles had on my ancestors? Absolutely not.

Times change, and individuals change as a circumstance of that, whether they are born in a certain era, or are raised in it. I agree with your general idea; if there is any blatant sexism, racism, or outright harassment in the MLP community, it should be called out... but we need to be careful what qualifies as racism or sexism, and we shouldn't place others on pedestals due to things that have occurred in the past, or even in different parts of the world. Everyone is an individual, and one individual can't speak for another, simply due to a common trait.

Ok,what you said on the middle east is not true. Women are not stoned for wearing clothes. Don't believe everything you hear and fall into stereotypes. I've actually lived there.

Second, today, blacks and women in America for example, still experience sexism and racism, so that makes them more qualified to discuss these topics as outsiders tend to overlook racism/sexism.

[Hachiroku 127]

Nah, man. Racism and sexism a problem in the brony community? Are you kidding me? I'm more concerned with the SJWs making a big deal. A lot of them preach their gospel about how this is racist or sexist whatever. But let me tell you this from a real OG who's dealt with this stuff in real life since as long as I remember. These people have a victim complex, they don't really know what it's like to be a receiving end of discrimination. I hate to generalize but being an undergrad I've had to deal with these freaks in person, they're usually white (or Asian) girls from an upper class background but I hate to generalize like that. Anyways, these people live an easy life, they see people suffer and feel really bad, like it's some sort of self inflicted guilt. So they try their hardest to overcompensate for this by defending the "oppressed groups" as much as they can. But in doing so they belittle people like kids, and then make claims about how whites, men, etc. are evil and responsible for the evil in the world.

Going back to my college experience, a lot of bronies on my campus, it's pretty chill here. However, a lot of these bronies fall into the SJW camp. A shame really. These people want to make claims about men being these animals who are ready to rape, I've seen it with the flyers they put up. They love talking about how being white really openly too, heard it myself, and 9 out of 10 times it's from self hating white. If I said that sort of stuff about ANY other group I'd be expelled for being a nazi or whatever. Guess it feels good to be white passing but not white white. Still it amazes me how they try to lecture me about prejudice, like look at yourself first. I've lived in bad neighborhoods all my life. I'm from Echo Park, nowadays it's a trendy hipster neighborhood but when I lived there I'd here gunshots at night, even had to learn about some people in the hood dying. I remember they shot someone in the head at a bus stop in broad daylight. But I had to move out, once the neighborhood was more hipster than gangster we all got displaced. Despite this I'm still a so called "privileged straight white male" by this people. So I moved to south central Los Angeles, because I couldn't afford to live anywhere else. That's where I experienced some real stuff. I've been mugged and assaulted on my way to school because of my appearance. Had to deal with even more people getting killed, dealing with cops who don't care about you, but I'm still privileged some how. These people don't know how easy they have it. I used to feel uneasy whenever a car would roll up near me slowly, now I don't care, I embrace death. If they want to kill me so be it. The ugly truth is that a lot of black people despised me for my looks, that why they tried to steal from me. That's why they stalked my mom and they threatened my family too. After years of this stuff my dad couldn't take it anymore. He was worried that they'd send some Crips (it was a Crip hood) or something over to murder us so we moved out. Now I live in an MS13 neighborhood, but we don't feel anymore racial discrimination so that's good. Of course when I'm away for school, I live on campus. A college campus is the safest place you can be, don't let these documentaries like The Hunting Ground fool you, I know because I've felt safe on campus late at night. I honestly wouldn't feel the same at home. 

But never the less, I'm still "privileged" according to SJWs. Being a brony means being compassionate and understanding right? Isn't that what the pastel colored ponies have thought us? Guess these bronies don't get it.

[ShadowSJG 62]

Yeah, this thread really is conforming my views.  

Also, to the some of the people I'm talking to: It's almost a sure thing youu objects to the idea of "white privilege" as defined by minorities. So why do you feel as a white person, you're the most qualified to speak on your own privilege and I hope you can see hypocrisy in believing you're as qualified as a marginalised group to speak on marginalization.

 

Also, 

Given history, it should be obvious that minorities and women have disproportionately gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to racism and sexism.

Unless you believe that things have equalized out completely, by induction it would make sense that women and minorities will have experiences that are different than white men.

Also, it might be the case that minority women say there is nothing to worry about. But it would still be in error to believe that their experiences necessarily speak for everyone.

[Hachiroku 127]

3 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Yeah, this thread really is conforming my views.  

Also, to the some of the people I'm talking to: It's almost a sure thing youu objects to the idea of "white privilege" as defined by minorities. So why do you feel as a white person, you're the most qualified to speak on your own privilege and I hope you can see hypocrisy in believing you're as qualified as a marginalised group to speak on marginalization.

I'm not privileged because of my race lol. White privilege is a lie, you're only privileged if you have money and live somewhere nice. I've been working class all my life, and I'm super lucky to be in college because only one school accepted me.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

What I mean is that since women and minorities have historically been victims of racism/sexism, we should listen to their voices the most when it comes to this.

Why? It doesn't necessarily make us any more or less qualified to speak than anyone else and it doesn't make our opinions any more or less valuable. Telling a person their opinion matters more because of something that is out of their control is just as discriminatory as telling someone it matters less because it doesn't solve marginalization, it exacerbates and even defines it by telling one person their are not equal to another.

If by that you mean our experience is valuable in investigating potential causes and solutions for racism and sexism on an individual basis, then I don't think your argument really stands- nobody would stand against that way of thinking, and it isn't what ShadOBabe was talking about in the first place.

 

15 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

I know there are those who abuse it but also letting those who aren't part of those groups to define it leads to huge abuse and overlooks those instances as shown by examples in this thread.

Where, exactly? In places that you do not agree with or something actually valid? Why would you allow only the victims of racism and sexism to define what is racist and sexist? They have more reason than anyone on the planet to be impartial, and when their inevitably wider definition of what is racist or sexist encompasses even more victims, the whole world becomes racist and sexist.

What instances in this thread, pray tell? All I've been able to find is you objecting to everything and ignoring every opportunity to explain what you're saying with more than generalizations. If you want to stop drawing everyone's ire and give what you're saying any level of credibility, you need to start making sense and explaining your standoffish position.

 

1 hour ago, ShadowSJG said:

Yeah, this thread really is conforming my views.  

Also, to the some of the people I'm talking to: It's almost a sure thing youu objects to the idea of "white privilege" as defined by minorities. So why do you feel as a white person, you're the most qualified to speak on your own privilege and I hope you can see hypocrisy in believing you're as qualified as a marginalised group to speak on marginalization.

No, it's asking you to explain your honestly radical statements and you have refused to every step of the way to do that. Care to answer Jeric or Twiggy? They are offering openly what you are already privileged to have- a place to speak and explain. So speak, and explain.

Your argument of people of color and women being the only group able to define racism and sexism is precisely the reason this continues to be a problem. I do not cry sexism at every problem I come across or blame it on the fact that I am a woman, but in a world where the victim gets to write the narrative of their misfortune, I could. And that's wrong, and I would say it's dangerously wrong. At least in modern countries where there is equality, I have every bit of say as any white man here. As it's seen, even in the conservative place I live in- and even more so, the country I originally come from- were someone to tell me I am wrong on the basis that I am not male, I am more than capable of shaming that individual on my own but I don't even have to- they shame themselves with the loss of respect of everyone around them.

My biggest problem with your idea that only the victim writes the narrative is that it seems to mean you can simply ignore what everyone tells you regardless of it's merit;
 

Spoiler

 

Yeah, let me explain why this is wrong. What I mean is that since women and minorities have historically been victims of racism/sexism, we should listen to their voices the most when it comes to this. I know there are those who abuse it but also letting those who aren't part of those groups to define it leads to huge abuse and overlooks those instances as shown by examples in this thread.

~

Ok,what you said on the middle east is not true. Women are not stoned for wearing clothes. Don't believe everything you hear and fall into stereotypes. I've actually lived there.

~

On your first point, I respectfully disagree. I don't think it works like that.

 

Et cetera, et cetera...

 

 

You've explained little to nothing and ignored every bit of these people you've responded to's questions and arguments. Is this what it means to be 'qualified' to speak to racism and sexism? Because it to me it seems to fall neatly into the definition of the word prejudice.

Do you think I am wrong? Feel free to correct me, but not with generalizations.

[Thuja 3,658]

Ok so I'll be the first to admit that I have white privilege even though I'm half indigenous(I look white as hell and people tend to be surprised when they learn I'm actually half).  To me, privilege is being able to exist in a public or private space without being questioned for it.  For example, if I were to check out a house I'll less likely be questioned for it unlike some cases where moc that are just doing their job are reported to the police for doing nothing, really.  Or I could just do something and not be questioned about it unlike someone that's a woman or a poc there'll be barriers put up around them making something more difficult even though said thing might be super easy to do.  Sometimes women are questioned and they have to fight for the same amount of respect that others get from fellow employees or their clients, now I'm not saying ALL women have to go through this but there's still a barrier put up that can make a job for a woman or poc much more difficult than a cisgender, white, heterosexual man.

Privilege is also having your foot in the metaphorical door unlike some people that have to ask someone for the key to open said door.  You can be the poorest person in the world but if you're white(in some countries anyways) then you do have privilege.  Privilege is something that spans over economic classes, if you're white in a country that has been affected by colonization, you're privileged.  Some people may be more privileged than others but even the poorest white person can have more privilege than their poc counterpart.  Privilege doesn't only affect the big things like how much you make or where you can live it also affects little things like, again, not being questioned about something, people won't bother you as much if you're doing something questionable. 

One big example I could think of is the kneeling protests with the NFL.  Tim Tebow a couple of years back knelt during the national anthem to protest abortion, he was applauded for doing so and he still probably has his job(don't quote me on that, I don't know if he does since I don't pay much attention to sports) and he didn't get any flak for it.  Unlike Colin Kaepernick who knelt to protest police brutality and what did he get?  People were burning his jersey, he lost his job, people thought he was disrespecting the flag and the troops and now the NFL wants to consider fining people for kneeling during the anthem.  Do you want to know why one is so much more different than the other?  Because Tim is a white christian man while Colin is a black man and black men in many parts of the world still have a long way to go to be considered equals.  Tim Tebow has white privilege and Colin does not.

Now as for the Brony community I'm just going to say this, there are shitty people in every fandom regardless of which fandom it is and I've noticed that most people don't really want to bother with dealing with these people since they can be rather frustrating.  Besides, to me at least, it seems like people on this forum don't care about this issue since they don't consider it an issue at all unless someone actually gets threatened.  We've got a long way to go as a civilization and if we're not made aware of these issues than it just gets passed down from generation to generation, not being fixed.  Now, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to put my two cents in.  I don't really want to speak for other people since people should have their own voice and be listened to.

I'm also a trans man and there are things I have to be more aware of since I don't pass 100% of the time, like for example, what washroom I use or what locker room I use at the gym.  Many states and countries have laws against people like me, I'm not a real person in their eyes and I don't deserve to even exist in public, anyone remember the bathroom laws that sprouted up all over the place?  In this case, I'm not privileged unlike a cisgender man who could walk right into the men's washroom and not be questioned about it, unlike me where I get weird looks for using either the men's or the women's washroom or it could potentially open me being attacked by someone who is offended by my existence... 

In any case, my experience is a lot different from other people's so what happens to me might never happen to another person and the other way around.  So I can't really speak for everyone on this type of topic and just let people have their own voice on it.

Thanks for attending my TED talk.

[ShadowSJG 62]

1 hour ago, Harper said:

Really the racists / sexists are people like yourself who put everyone into categories, some women are extremely powerful, rich and privileged, same with some men and white people and black people, this victim mentality and identity politics helps nothing, how about everyone put their own work and effort into life rather than trying to be a victim, it doesn't matter about anyone's skin colour or sex, no one owes you anything. 

Yeah, that's not how racism and sexism work. You're the problem I was describing and oversimplifying complex social issues. Rich Women/Black people does not mean centuries of oppression disappear over night. Reminds me of a guy who says racism doesn't exist for blacks because they have interent. In sum, you're this:

 "You're racist for thinking I'm racist"/

Also, you're this kind of guy right:

https://imgflip.com/i/vlao4

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by ShadowSJG

[ShadowSJG 62]

1 minute ago, Harper said:

 

Oh my bad, I thought racism and sexism worked something like this.  

 

All black people are X, all white people are Y

 

All women are X, all men are Y

 

The above is something people on your side of the argument do all the time. 

 

How am I the problem by saying no one is owed anything and that being a particular race or sex should play no part in who you are and that everything in someones life comes from their own effort.  Sure, I could walk down the street, be called a fag or whatever but thats life and the individual who said that would be homophobic / bigoted not the ''group'' they belong to.

 

Like Sunset Rose said, you don't actually answer with any real come backs or arguments, just sweeping generalisations which goes to show that you are wrong, hopefully deep down you know that to. 

Yeah no, you don't get it all. You're misunderstanding my point and putting words in my mouth .  I know I'm not wrong. You just choose to be ignorant. 

[Jeric 46,836]

5 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Yeah no, you don't get it all. You're misunderstanding my point and putting words in my mouth .  I know I'm not wrong. You just choose to be ignorant. 

It is often said that communication requires two parties to understand, the communicator and respondent. It might be a good idea to rephrase and go into more detail if you feel your point is becoming misinterpreted as you suggest, just to ensure that the miscommunication isn't something on your end of the equation. 

Also, now would be a good time to remind people that this could be a phenomenal discussion, and to be careful and dial back the hostility to ensure it has a chance to reach its potential. 

[ShadowSJG 62]

51 minutes ago, Sunset Rose said:

Why? It doesn't necessarily make us any more or less qualified to speak than anyone else and it doesn't make our opinions any more or less valuable. Telling a person their opinion matters more because of something that is out of their control is just as discriminatory as telling someone it matters less because it doesn't solve marginalization, it exacerbates and even defines it by telling one person their are not equal to another.

If by that you mean our experience is valuable in investigating potential causes and solutions for racism and sexism on an individual basis, then I don't think your argument really stands- nobody would stand against that way of thinking, and it isn't what ShadOBabe was talking about in the first place.

 

Where, exactly? In places that you do not agree with or something actually valid? Why would you allow only the victims of racism and sexism to define what is racist and sexist? They have more reason than anyone on the planet to be impartial, and when their inevitably wider definition of what is racist or sexist encompasses even more victims, the whole world becomes racist and sexist.

What instances in this thread, pray tell? All I've been able to find is you objecting to everything and ignoring every opportunity to explain what you're saying with more than generalizations. If you want to stop drawing everyone's ire and give what you're saying any level of credibility, you need to start making sense and explaining your standoffish position.

 

No, it's asking you to explain your honestly radical statements and you have refused to every step of the way to do that. Care to answer Jeric or Twiggy? They are offering openly what you are already privileged to have- a place to speak and explain. So speak, and explain.

Your argument of people of color and women being the only group able to define racism and sexism is precisely the reason this continues to be a problem. I do not cry sexism at every problem I come across or blame it on the fact that I am a woman, but in a world where the victim gets to write the narrative of their misfortune, I could. And that's wrong, and I would say it's dangerously wrong. At least in modern countries where there is equality, I have every bit of say as any white man here. As it's seen, even in the conservative place I live in- and even more so, the country I originally come from- were someone to tell me I am wrong on the basis that I am not male, I am more than capable of shaming that individual on my own but I don't even have to- they shame themselves with the loss of respect of everyone around them.

My biggest problem with your idea that only the victim writes the narrative is that it seems to mean you can simply ignore what everyone tells you regardless of it's merit;
 

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Yeah, let me explain why this is wrong. What I mean is that since women and minorities have historically been victims of racism/sexism, we should listen to their voices the most when it comes to this. I know there are those who abuse it but also letting those who aren't part of those groups to define it leads to huge abuse and overlooks those instances as shown by examples in this thread.

~

Ok,what you said on the middle east is not true. Women are not stoned for wearing clothes. Don't believe everything you hear and fall into stereotypes. I've actually lived there.

~

On your first point, I respectfully disagree. I don't think it works like that.

 

Et cetera, et cetera...

 

 

You've explained little to nothing and ignored every bit of these people you've responded to's questions and arguments. Is this what it means to be 'qualified' to speak to racism and sexism? Because it to me it seems to fall neatly into the definition of the word prejudice.

Do you think I am wrong? Feel free to correct me, but not with generalizations.

Ok. I responded already. But throughout history, Blacks for example, have experienced centuries of racism/discrimination. The Civl Rights movement was only 50 years ago. That stuff doesn't go away over night. Marginalized groups are more qualified to talk about this as they have experienced it first hand. It is not as discriminatory. Also, there is hypocrisy here. If I, a minority, calls out white privilige people like will use your own experiences to say it doesn't exist. And yet, you refuse to listen when minorites discuss their own issues?

Also, racism can be overlooked by outsiders. For example, the person I linked who said dropping the N word is no big deal and just noise. To a black person, it isn't.

You are another example. You are saying women cry sexism. Are you a women? No. You don't have the experience of women. Don't speak for them. People like you overlook systematic racism. For example here:

https://www.bustle.com/p/this-is-proof-that-institutional-racism-is-still-very-much-a-problem-43610

https://www.thoughtco.com/examples-of-institutional-racism-in-the-u-s-2834624

Please, enough of this this whole, "I'm racist for calling out racism" BS. It's tiresome.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by ShadowSJG

[Steve Piranha 28,902]

On 5/25/2018 at 10:34 PM, ShadOBabe said:

Just noticed this line. Buddy, you have to be careful with that kind of thinking. You are putting ALL the power in one side’s hands. You’re saying that they get to make all the calls on this topic. And contrary to what you might believe, there are those unscrupulous characters out there that will abuse this attitude for their own benefit.

For example, one of my managers (who is a white woman) works as a manager at another store as well. And one time she caught wind of a couple of customers that were BLATANTLY trying to pull a scam on the store. They were trying to return merchandise they had never even purchased (I won’t explain exactly how they do that, because I don’t want to give potential dirt bags any ideas). So my manager told them she couldn’t take the return without a receipt, which was true. But they’d been able to trick other managers before, and when my manager refused, these people (who were black) accused her of being a racist.

Fortunately the cashier, a friend of my manager’s, was ALSO black, and immediately jumped to her defense. And then later she followed them out into the parking lot when no one was looking, told them that people that them were the cause of all sorts of disgusting racial crap. And when the people were all surprised and like, “Well you didn’t act like this while in the store”, the cashier said, “I’m not on camera anymore... don’t you ever come back to this store again.”

What a bad@$$.

That is an extreme example, but my point still stands. Racism and sexism is the act of treating others differently because you think they’re inferior. It is NOT, you hurt my fee-fees or mildly inconvenienced me, so I’m going to label you as a bigot and try and ruin you.

Huh, it's sad we don't have to look far to realize you speak the truth

[Jeric 46,836]

2 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

You are another example. You are saying women cry sexism. Are you a women? No. You don't have the experience of women. Don't speak for them.

I am just quoting this for posterity, as it believe it proves you aren't reading every post. Please go back and read what you missed.