S07:E10 - A Royal Problem

[PoisonClaw 8,164]

Well, now that the episode has official aired, I can finally talk about A Royal Problem! I was against watching the episodes out of order, so originally I was going to wait until the official release...

... right up until I saw an unspoilered screenshot of what appeared to be Nightmare Star on Derpibooru, prompting a flat "What." from me and a desire to watch the episode just to see what the hell I was looking at. So, once the episode had reached Youtube, I loaded it up... and immediately had to pause the video because I almost fell out of my chair from Twilight's expression. Seriously, that look could very well be the greatest Twilight face EVER.

Anyway, this is easily my favorite episode of the entire season. For the last few years, I have prayed for two things to finally happen with this show: A Celestia episode, and a Royal Sisters episode, and this season managed to deliver both and I couldn't be happier. Some may argue that Celestia and Luna's bickering appears kinda childish for ponies who are hundreds of years old, but I would counter that by bringing up the events of Slice Of Life, where we see them bickering like normal siblings. For lack of a better term, if makes them feel more human, that behind the titles and power, they're still regular ponies with their own personalities. 

Starlight and Twilight weren't slouches either, with Twilight spending much of the episode panicing and being unhelpfull with Starlight reacting in her own snarky way. Before this episode aired, I said that how the spell Starlight used could make or break this episode, and while having the spell be unable to be undone for 24 hours may not be the best solution, it certainly sets a reason for why they can't just switch back and go right back to arguing. 

And now, we come to the mane event: Daybreaker, an actual look at an evil Celestia, something I have been greatly opposed to because I think the idea of Celestia ever going evil is impossible given her character but, in a move that amazes even me, I kinda love Daybreaker. Not only is her design really well done, but she's just too hilariously hammy not to love! It's clear that Nicole Oliver was having fun with the role, playing up Daybreaker to the nth degree.

"Daybreaker! The better, prettier, more powerful version of you!"

"Ugh... so much black. We get it, you're sad. You could really use some... SUN!" *Breathes fire*

Plus, here she's more a manifestation of Celestia's own fears as opposed to Celestia actually going crazy, a fear that if she isn't careful she could very well lose control and become something she despises more than anything else. Factoring all that, I can't really find a fault in this episode. If this doesn't end up being the best episode in the season, I look forward to what tops it!     

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, The Nth Doctor said:

Absolutely; we saw that happen with Luna back in episode one, remember?

Would it happen again, considering that Luna has (one would hope) learned her lesson? And would it happen to Celestia, who probably put up with much worse without transforming? Without knowing how Luna became Nightmare Moon in the first place, I can't help but think it wouldn't. 

2 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

I loathe the fact that people claim to know better than the characters themselves. They may be fictional characters and as such they actually have no thoughts and feelings of their own, but for the sake of this discussion we will say otherwise. If someone does something to help me, and when all is said and done I decide they made the right decision, who are you to come and tell me I am wrong? Who are you to decide what is best for me and my destiny and where it is heading? Obviously all of us think we know best for the characters in the show, and paint our own personal feelings and opinions upon that and them to varying degrees, but in the canon of the fiction we all watched, it is not hinted at, but stated outright she made the right choice. You can headconon all you like about how wrong it was and drop every opinion and review you want to about it, and it does not change the fact that is how they feel and their opinion is greater than those sitting in the back seat screaming directions or opinions.

4

Okay, before I start, I should clarify that I know my opinions aren't objective fact. They're how I perceive and react to the episode, but they're not the only valid perceptions or reactions. I understand that and appreciate that. However, I take issue with this specific paragraph, because the characters aren't real. If I think that their reactions are promoting a questionable moral (in this case, that the ends justify the means even if the means are morally dubious), then I'm still going to be troubled by it. I'm more willing than many to prize the characters' reactions, but ultimately they're not real and don't have actual opinions aside from what the writers present them with.

By my own ethics, I don't understand why none of the characters are bothered by Starlight's actions, and I don't understand or agree with the ethical arguments which would make that seem valid. The only objective fact of that is that it's how I feel, but while I will agree that @Nightmare Muffin was wrong to suggest that Starlight's fans somehow aren't seeing some "truth," there is no inherent validity to the opinions of fictional characters, because they do not exist, and even among real people, it's valid to be concerned by what others are willing to accept if you think it would lead to harm in the future, and that's how I feel about Starlight's actions. Not everyone will be as okay with them as Celestia and Luna, and I'm led to believe Starlight won't consider that in the future. 

And as for this:

2 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

Most (not all) of the complaints stem from the whole "Starlight swapped their cutie marks! She is pure evil I knew it!

Perhaps that does encompass a fair few responses, but mine (as well as, as I interpret it, that of @Music Chart Fan) more boils down to finding it hard to relate to and sympathise with a character to acts in a way which violates our own moral codes. For me, I don't think she's pure evil, but I think she has a wonky sense of right and wrong which could seriously hurt those around her some day, and having that praised doesn't sit right with me. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by AlexanderThrond

[FizzyGreen 909]

Brilliant episode! Not much to say about it! All in character, decent conflict, logical conclusion to it and nice plot. The only problem i have, i guess in general, is that Starlight was called by the map. That is most curious and needs an explaination! And i guess i'm gonna have to come up with one now.

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

46 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

However, I take issue with this specific paragraph, because the characters aren't real. If I think that their reactions are promoting a questionable moral (in this case, that the ends justify the means even if the means are morally dubious), then I'm still going to be troubled by it. I'm more willing than many to prize the characters' reactions, but ultimately they're not real and don't have actual opinions aside from what the writers present them with.

By my own ethics, I don't understand why none of the characters are bothered by Starlight's actions, and I don't understand or agree with the ethical arguments which would make that seem valid. The only objective fact of that is that it's how I feel, but while I will agree that @Nightmare Muffin was wrong to suggest that Starlight's fans somehow aren't seeing some "truth," there is no inherent validity to the opinions of fictional characters, because they do not exist, and even among real people, it's valid to be concerned by what others are willing to accept if you think it would lead to harm in the future, and that's how I feel about Starlight's actions. Not everyone will be as okay with them as Celestia and Luna, and I'm led to believe Starlight won't consider that in the future.

As has been said, all of that is your opinion, and you are free to all of it. There is not doubt nor disagreement about any of that. The point is many (not necessarily yourself) are trying to raise their opinion and feelings over the fact of the show. The big problem that is created and forms some of the issues is the whole (sorta) real vs. fictional thinking when discussing the show (at least for me).... you either have it one way or the other, there is no in-between. If you can decide that they are out of character, or you just don't agree with what they say or think and feel it is wrong by your own opinion, then that train of thought can be placed on any character in any episode in anyway by anyone who wants to do it. I can say Twilight actually hates Spike no matter what she says or does just because I want to. I can say Rainbow Dash secretly thinks Fluttershy is a wimp and would rather she just move away if not outright be sent to the moon... it does not matter what is said in show or how it appears, the only thing that matters is my opinion. Obviously that is not the case, because the show has made it quite clear I would be wrong and many would call me out on it. I can think whatever I like for myself, and write a million page document upon why my opinion is correct, and it will be trumped by that simple fact that I am wrong because the show specifically said it is. Also, none of those facts would ever change my opinion either.

So it comes down to this, are they fictional characters that have no mind of their own and thus anything anyone wants to think or say about any character in any situation is OK because if you don't like it you can just make up whatever you want? Or are they fictional characters that we treat as semi real for the sake of discussion and personal enjoyment that have defined thoughts and actions we can see, hear and think about? If they are utterly fictional to the point of nothing they say is real and utterly dismissable, then there is no actual reason to care about anything they say at all. Furthermore there is no point in caring or worrying about what "Starlight does in the future" because she can't and won't do anything since she is not real and her actions will be dictated by whichever writer feels like having her do something at a given moment. No, they are not real, but the very fact we sit here and discuss all of this means that they do hold some reality in all of our minds.

Starlight did the right thing, because they said she did.. it is that easy. I am perfectly fine with people disagreeing with that sentiment, finding fault in it, or thinking it makes no sense and offering their opinions and counter proposals... but I do take issue when someone says they are wrong and she actually violated them and shamed them or used them. Because she didn't. That is taking an opinion and trying to superimpose it over the facts of the show as stated. We can sit around "worrying about the future" but it is painfully obvious no one else is in show, so why should we? The whole Starlight has not learned her lesson thing has went on so long now that the horse has long since rotted away and now some are just hitting the ground where the body once was.

 

47 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Perhaps that does encompass a fair few responses, but mine (as well as, as I interpret it, that of @Music Chart Fan) more boils down to finding it hard to relate to and sympathise with a character to acts in a way which violates our own moral codes. For me, I don't think she's pure evil, but I think she has a wonky sense of right and wrong which could seriously hurt those around her some day, and having that praised doesn't sit right with me. 

Again all well and good. You don't have to sympathize or relate to her. You can just sit there and expect the worst from it if that is what you choose to do. We all have moral codes we believe in and follow... and I cannot find fault in that, nor can I find fault in misgivings for future episodes. But sitting on your moral horse there and wagging your finger, let me put it like this... as I said in a previous post unrelated to this one, were it possible to somehow switch "destines" or "situations" or however you want to call it between two people for a temporary period of time as was done in this episode, then more than half the members of this site alone would take advantage of it. Because just about EVERYONE here has experienced some form of mistreatment, disgrace, humiliation, belittling, misjudgement, bigotry, persecution, dismissal or antipathy to some degree that has made them wish they could either show the offender how they feel and what they go through and deal with, or just spend a day being them and letting them suffer with what they struggle with in some form or another. No amount of talking, discussion, counseling or therapy can fix all of those things in all situations and not even close to as quickly. Starlight was able to do what most of us in some form or another only wish they could do at some point in their life. Make someone else see how it is to live with what they live with when someone either does not understand, or refuses to understand or worse, just does not care and ridicules or ostracizes you for it.

Obviously this show was dealing with a far more light hearted version of it, and did not expect you to take it too deeply. But where some might morally see some form of magical abuse.. I see it as cutting through all the bullshit and showing someone else how it really is to walk in someone else's shoes. If we could, a whole lot of abuse and discrimination could be avoided in this world.

 

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,673]

Yes! YES! This is the MLP I fell in love with! Best episode of season 7 yet! (This is also the latest episode I've seen so far.)

This seems like one of those episodes you need to sit on to really appreciate. The more I'm realizing this is an episode I've been wanting to see for a very long time! We get to get a more up close and personal look at their day to day life and their jobs. I was especially eager to see what Luna's job is all about. Seeing both fail at the other's task felt a lot more organic. Princess Luna is used to working on her own and at her own pace while Princess Celestia is much better adapted to the limelight. It also makes it easier to understand just why Princess Luna does get lonely and feels neglected. They both have very rough jobs. I'm a bit worried that they hardly get any time off and their shifts make it nigh impossible to see each other. I feel bad for the both of them. Even ponies who do appreciate what they do still underestimate them and their responsibilities.

This is an episode done right. I can relate to these characters and not feel like a conflict is being forced into the episode as an excuse for the episode to exist. About time. I could connect with not just Princess Luna but also Princess Celestia and Starlight. Tis episode brought a tear to my eye and I really miss that this season.

So yeah, the conflict felt much more organic instead of shoe-horned in. All characters had to confront their shortcomings and their fears and they all made it out the other end together. That was quite touching.

There were plenty of other wonderful moments. There's Daybreak, something many people have been itching to see for a very long time. That fight between Nightmare Moon and Daybreak was exciting to see... I could go on.

There were also some things that felt off. I never thought of Celestia as the extrovert she's been protrayed but on second thought, it makes sense that it only shows itself when she's taken away from ponies. She's so well-adapted to it that you just can't tell it's one important reason she's so comfortable and composed. It's like how it's only during a power outage do we really get to understand how important electricity (or an internet connection) is to our every day functioning. I also find that Twilight's neuroticism was exaggerated for convenience. Hearing Princess Celestia speak with such a condescending, dismissive and angry (not to be confused with assertive) tone also caught me off-guard.

Ehh. Since she's only starting to become characterized after years of being little more than a plot device, it's naturally going to be really hard.

I think I'm giving this a 9/10

[Sonic5421 423]

7 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Yup, again, I don't disagree. I just think that, given the negatives in her past, she needs to find something other than this. she has a wider range of spells than just this - pushing ponies apart with a blue field similar to Twilight's purple one, for example. However, I can also agree this was a case of special circumstances, and possibly one of the few times it was a valid choice (I waffled a bit on this near the top of the page ) but not necessarily the best or only choice.

That much I'm willing to agree with. Starlight needs to learn that magic won't solve every problem out there she encounters. Sometimes, she needs to think things over with other ways before resorting to magic as a last resort when everything else fails.

[blackstarraven 142]

Some one actually said in a post before this that they thought this episode had been penned quite some time ago.

 

And I agree.

Actually I recall a interview where some one was talking about a comic ideal like this, but in a more standard 'trading days' type set up.

This episode honestly is pretty classic, but then goes in a direction I really was not expecting.

[Dowlphin 463]

I thought the black spots weren't part of Luna's cutie mark. Last time, when it was taken away, only the moon vanished. I assumed it's just her natural coat (and that it's naturally symmetrical). Hm, maybe that was just draining the power from the cutie mark.

EDIT: I think Luna's coat IS spotted as indicated in an earlier episode, but the spots were transferred here purely for practical reasons, since Luna's cutie mark is white and Celestia's coat is, too. It would have been nearly invisible on her. (Personally I would have chosen a black cloud/radiant effect around the moon to provide minimum contrast, but maybe that wouldn't have fit the art style. Still could have just given the moon a black outline though.)

Interesting dreams ponies have. Pinkie surfing on the gummyboard, wearing shades, I like that a lot, heh. And Derpy as queen, on her side another ... background character. ;-)

Starlight's dragon toothbrush was funny.

Twilight her frequent freakout self, but totally understandable why she couldn't calm herself. Still so much admiration for the regal sisters and projection of crucial importance to Equestria. (She underestimates the importance of everypony else's contribution.)

The episode was full with playfulness, action and lovely little details and a new insight into ponies' daily life.

Early-on this episode reminded me of one of my favorite pictures from olden times that I call "Maneheart"...

Edited June 21, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Jeric 46,851]

42 minutes ago, Dowlphin said:

I thought the black spots weren't part of Luna's cutie mark. Last time, when it was taken away, only the moon vanished. I assumed it's just her natural coat (and that it's naturally symmetrical). Hm, maybe that was just draining the power from the cutie mark.

I noticed that too. I'm guessing it was an animation oversight and that slight detail from Twilight's Kingdom was missed. 

Either that or Starlight can dye coats at the same time as swapping Cutie Marks.

[Quinch 1,120]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Either that or Starlight can dye coats at the same time as swapping Cutie Marks.

MARY SUE! MARY SUE!!

{awkwardly waves torch in one hand and pitchfork in other}

[Jeric 46,851]

3 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

As has been said, all of that is your opinion, and you are free to all of it. There is not doubt nor disagreement about any of that. The point is many (not necessarily yourself) are trying to raise their opinion and feelings over the fact of the show. The big problem that is created and forms some of the issues is the whole (sorta) real vs. fictional thinking when discussing the show (at least for me).... you either have it one way or the other, there is no in-between. If you can decide that they are out of character, or you just don't agree with what they say or think and feel it is wrong by your own opinion, then that train of thought can be placed on any character in any episode in anyway by anyone who wants to do it. I can say Twilight actually hates Spike no matter what she says or does just because I want to. I can say Rainbow Dash secretly thinks Fluttershy is a wimp and would rather she just move away if not outright be sent to the moon... it does not matter what is said in show or how it appears, the only thing that matters is my opinion. Obviously that is not the case, because the show has made it quite clear I would be wrong and many would call me out on it. I can think whatever I like for myself, and write a million page document upon why my opinion is correct, and it will be trumped by that simple fact that I am wrong because the show specifically said it is. Also, none of those facts would ever change my opinion either.

So it comes down to this, are they fictional characters that have no mind of their own and thus anything anyone wants to think or say about any character in any situation is OK because if you don't like it you can just make up whatever you want? Or are they fictional characters that we treat as semi real for the sake of discussion and personal enjoyment that have defined thoughts and actions we can see, hear and think about? If they are utterly fictional to the point of nothing they say is real and utterly dismissable, then there is no actual reason to care about anything they say at all. Furthermore there is no point in caring or worrying about what "Starlight does in the future" because she can't and won't do anything since she is not real and her actions will be dictated by whichever writer feels like having her do something at a given moment. No, they are not real, but the very fact we sit here and discuss all of this means that they do hold some reality in all of our minds.

Starlight did the right thing, because they said she did.. it is that easy. I am perfectly fine with people disagreeing with that sentiment, finding fault in it, or thinking it makes no sense and offering their opinions and counter proposals... but I do take issue when someone says they are wrong and she actually violated them and shamed them or used them. Because she didn't. That is taking an opinion and trying to superimpose it over the facts of the show as stated. We can sit around "worrying about the future" but it is painfully obvious no one else is in show, so why should we? The whole Starlight has not learned her lesson thing has went on so long now that the horse has long since rotted away and now some are just hitting the ground where the body once was.

 

Again all well and good. You don't have to sympathize or relate to her. You can just sit there and expect the worst from it if that is what you choose to do. We all have moral codes we believe in and follow... and I cannot find fault in that, nor can I find fault in misgivings for future episodes. But sitting on your moral horse there and wagging your finger, let me put it like this... as I said in a previous post unrelated to this one, were it possible to somehow switch "destines" or "situations" or however you want to call it between two people for a temporary period of time as was done in this episode, then more than half the members of this site alone would take advantage of it. Because just about EVERYONE here has experienced some form of mistreatment, disgrace, humiliation, belittling, misjudgement, bigotry, persecution, dismissal or antipathy to some degree that has made them wish they could either show the offender how they feel and what they go through and deal with, or just spend a day being them and letting them suffer with what they struggle with in some form or another. No amount of talking, discussion, counseling or therapy can fix all of those things in all situations and not even close to as quickly. Starlight was able to do what most of us in some form or another only wish they could do at some point in their life. Make someone else see how it is to live with what they live with when someone either does not understand, or refuses to understand or worse, just does not care and ridicules or ostracizes you for it.

Obviously this show was dealing with a far more light hearted version of it, and did not expect you to take it too deeply. But where some might morally see some form of magical abuse.. I see it as cutting through all the bullshit and showing someone else how it really is to walk in someone else's shoes. If we could, a whole lot of abuse and discrimination could be avoided in this world.

 

There are chunks of that post that need to be laser cut into a glass plaque. I often bring up the importance of reader interpretation vs the authorial intent -- invoking Barthes famous essay. What I don't tend to discuss nearly as much is that there are natural limitations to proper interpretation when discussing the elements that make up any story or character. Your post nails the a huge issue I see with some analysis (not exclusive to MLPF). Unless we are presented with evidence to the contrary or given an unreliable narrator, we do need to heavily consider what the show gives us. 

[Steve Piranha 29,421]

Couldn't resist watching this episode again. I FUCKING LOVE IT 

6 hours ago, FizzyGreen said:

Brilliant episode! Not much to say about it! All in character, decent conflict, logical conclusion to it and nice plot. The only problem i have, i guess in general, is that Starlight was called by the map. That is most curious and needs an explaination! And i guess i'm gonna have to come up with one now.

For all things considered, maybe Starlight and Trix will be in the changeling hive solving an issue with Thorax's brother is because the map sent them both 

[Truffles 2,033]

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

To start, when Luna is posing for the picture with the schoolponies, Luna should only have to smile right before the picture is taken; in fact, I've heard that letting your face rest just before posing a smile for a picture will make it "fresher", anyway.

The only issue I had with this scene was it might have made more sense for her to look bored rather than that awful scowl. I could see how she could get tired and relax her smile, leading the readers to think she was bored with having to work with schoolponies, but not how she'd go from a smile to a scowl. Unless she was really ticked off at this point at the photographer?

Not a big deal, but since I've already started down the road of how I'd make this episode absolutely perfect beginning with my Spike comments earlier, well... as they say - in for a penny, in for a pound!

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

I guess the photographer and the newspaper could have an agenda of making the Princesses look bad and embarrassing them whenever possible, but it would still be pretty callous of them to (apparently) make collateral damage of the earnest students' fundraiser in the process.

There's multiple aspects of confusion for me going on here. First of all, why is this being reported by the Foal Free Press? It's a Ponyville-local newspaper that really shouldn't be available in Canterlot. I guess it's possible after the Gabby Gums incident, it permanently expanded to a national readership (which says something about Diamond Tiara's real calling as an editor if that's the case) but if that's the case then it seems by the nature of this article there's another Gabby Gums at work again - somepony who also has a take-no-prisoners attitude when it comes to publishing gossipy or fake news to sell more copies.

Also, if this is the Foal Free Press, then why isn't Featherweight the photographer? I know it's been a few years since "Ponyville Confidential", but even if he got promoted, there should still be a school pony manning the camera. (And in fact, there should be colts and fillies manning the paper in general.) It's kind of unsettling that there's an adult pony photographer working for a school newspaper now, but in this universe such concerns are probably not warranted, I suppose.

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

But after Luna declares in the "traditional royal Canterlot voice" that there are no timberwolves, the delegates just run away, screaming that there are definitely timberwolves. I get that Luna's doing that might have been a little intimidating, but wouldn't the delegates want to talk about Luna's proclamation, dispute it, see whether she has evidence for it, etc.?

My impression was the way she said it sounded fake because modern ponies still aren't used to the "Canterlot Voice" and so maybe they thought she was trying to cover up the truth?

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Couldn't such disputes be handled (and handled better) by an Equestrian court system or a trained third-party arbitrator or something like that?

Maybe that is all Equestria has under their current civic model - that the princesses decide disputes when two parties can't come to an agreement on their own? There is some evidence for that from how we saw disagreements settled in "Trade Ya" and "Princess Spike", though in the former I recall them saying it was somewhat of a historical tradition and not how things worked anymore, and in the latter it just made everypony seem stupid and helpless, lol.

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Again, it seems very premature to conclude that Celestia's and Luna's issues were completely unsolvable at that point, and I see no real evidence that Luna was on the verge of transforming into Nightmare Moon or anything, which would supposedly necessitate taking urgent extreme action.

For most ponies (certainly ones like AJ, Rainbow Dash, and Rarity) they would see it the way you did and not over-react like Twilight did by suggesting to Starlight this was a definite possibility. But we're talking Twilight and Starlight here, and we've already seen those two are more alike than they'd probably want to admit. Help me out, here, Spike: XD

 

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Did Starlight, in helping to fix the map back in "Spice Up Your Life", somehow get herself on the "call list" of the Cutie Map?

That's what I'm wondering, too. It could be that during her helping Twilight to fix the map she somehow imprinted on it due to her having to use magic in the repair, and doing so has allowed her access to the map missions.

I suppose if the show ever has another pony who is totally disconnected from the Mane 6/7/8 and who hasn't been a hero in some other way get called for duty, then we will know the map can actually call on any pony for a mission, even if their lives aren't wrapped up in the Tree of Harmony in some way.

22 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Finally, as Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks are returning, Starlight puzzlingly says "wait, I'm not doing this". I'm not sure what that statement is supposed to mean. Did it just strike 24 hours after Starlight first cast her spell, and the spell is reversing itself? Or is Starlight's statement implying that the Cutie Map is reversing Starlight's spell because Starlight's mission was accomplished?

Yeah, this was a bit confusing as well. Since it seems a whole day had passed, I wouldn't have expected her to be surprised that the marks were reverting to their original owners. But the way the scene plays out it seems like the Tree of Harmony short-circuited the spell and changed them back as soon as the issue was resolved, even if it was going to expire soon anyway. I suppose there are good reasons for that - no need For the ToH to risk an epic pony war since with Luna is more of a warrior than a diplomat.

 

[Thrond 3,263]

5 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

No, they are not real, but the very fact we sit here and discuss all of this means that they do hold some reality in all of our minds.

 

Sure. Although, all of that is only true for the statement "Celestia and Luna were pleased by Starlight's actions;" with an ethically contentious issue like this, I think it's valid to think they ought to have been less approving of Starlight's methods. 

5 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

but I do take issue when someone says they are wrong and she actually violated them and shamed them or used them. Because she didn't.

I don't see how she shamed them or used them, but I think "violated" is more of a judgment call, because she did change their bodies without their consent and that can be seen as a violation. Some people do tend to speak too strongly about her, but if you think swapping cutie marks without consent is wrong, I don't see what else you'd call it.

5 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

then more than half the members of this site alone would take advantage of it.

Perhaps, but I at least wouldn't do it without consent, and I'd like to think that most people would agree with that. 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

13 minutes ago, Truffles said:

There's multiple aspects of confusion for me going on here. First of all, why is this being reported by the Foal Free Press? It's a Ponyville-local newspaper that really shouldn't be available in Canterlot. I guess it's possible after the Gabby Gums incident, it permanently expanded to a national readership (which says something about Diamond Tiara's real calling as an editor if that's the case) but if that's the case then it seems by the nature of this article there's another Gabby Gums at work again - somepony who also has a take-no-prisoners attitude when it comes to publishing gossipy or fake news to sell more copies.

Also, if this is the Foal Free Press, then why isn't Featherweight the photographer? I know it's been a few years since "Ponyville Confidential", but even if he got promoted, there should still be a school pony manning the camera. (And in fact, there should be colts and fillies manning the paper in general.) It's kind of unsettling that there's an adult pony photographer working for a school newspaper now, but in this universe such concerns are probably not warranted, I suppose.

Yeah, that makes me wonder whether the "Foal Free Press" title of the newspaper was intentional, or whether perhaps the animators reused a convenient newspaper asset and didn't notice or change the newspaper title. If it was the latter, then I wonder if they realized that viewers like us would take notice of little details like that and see what we can read into them!

[Truffles 2,033]

4 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Yeah, that makes me wonder whether the "Foal Free Press" title of the newspaper was intentional, or whether perhaps the animators reused a convenient newspaper asset and didn't notice or change the newspaper title. If it was the latter, then I wonder if they realized that viewers like us would take notice of little details like that and see what we can read into them!

They certainly managed to start a whole new line of thinking among viewers as to who's currently running the FFP right now and whether it's gone back to its bad old days like it was under Diamond. The asset idea is a good theory; the other possibility is "Ponyville Confidential" is one of the writer's favorite episodes, and threw the FFP in as a nod to the sort of articles it was publishing for a brief time.

Celestia even got skewered back then, and it started a whole meme about her and cake. XD

[ManaMinori 4,145]

already said my piece in earlier posts. For now, I leave my reaction vid.

 

[Justin_Case001 4,883]

So, I have a lot of mixed feelings about this episode.  Needless to say, I've been waiting for a Sisters spotlight since day 1, and I was supremely worried that it was too late for it to be good.  I'm still a bit....on the fence about it, but I think I like it overall.

At first, I disliked the premise, and was very annoyed about several aspects of the episode, but upon rethinking it, I'm actually okay with most of it.  I feel like I was extra touchy about this one because I had waited so long for it, and really wanted it to be good.

First of all, I initially hated the idea of the Sisters fighting, because it seemed to me to be unbecoming of the princesses, especially considering that Luna has only been back for ~7 years (estimating 1 year per season).  But after I thought about it for a bit, it makes sense that they would have trouble appreciating each other and getting along, because we know it happened in the past.  And the thing of it is, they never really did anything to change that.  Luna felt unappreciated a thousand years ago, and, well...her nighttime still isn't really appreciated all that much.  I mean, what's changed when you think about it?  It makes sense that history could repeat itself, and they'd begin fighting again, and it makes sense that it would start with the smallest, most mundane things, such as pancakes.  If left alone, they could easily go down the road toward Nightmare Moon again, someday.  Could take decades, centuries, or even millennia, but it seemed an inevitability at some point if they didn't change.  It's like a couple that always fights, then separates, then misses each other and gets back together, saying, "I'll never fight with you again!"  It's completely naive to think that you'll never have any more problems just because you missed each other when you were apart.  You need to actually have therapy and do something to change.  The Sisters didn't really do that.  They never really got to the root of their problems and did anything to change it.  I've postulated before on these forums that Luna could become NMM again someday, and it seemed likely if nothing changed.  So, perhaps this is how it started before--with pancakes and lavender and dumb sh*t like that, and over a millennium or so, you get NMM.  Perhaps history was repeating itself, only this time, they had a pony who pushed them to change--something everypony else was afraid to do.

I also initially hated the idea of the cutie mark switch, because it seemed at first to punch a giant hole in my theory of how marks work, a theory which has pretty much been confirmed time and again on the show.  Starlight's stunt seemed to suggest that cutie marks function like ability augments, literal Warframe mods that can be moved and given to another.  This frustrated me greatly, as I feel it contradicts what the show has established.  On closer inspection, however, I believe my theory still stands.  The key is that their magic color swapped as well, not just the marks.  As we already know, magic seems to be a sort of unified imprint that is completely independent of the pony's physical matter.  We know that magic can be completely removed and transferred to another.  (See Twilight's Kingdom)  It's unclear if only alicorn magic works this way, but it seems highly illogical that only alicorn magic can be transferred, and not unicorn.  There should be no difference, only that alicorn magic is typically stronger (though not necessarily).  So, the princesses transferred their magic to Twilight, and when they did, their marks disappeared.  Their self-perceptions were unaltered, but with no magic whatsoever, it makes perfect sense that the marks would cease to be.  After all, cutie marks have to have a magical basis, as they appear magically.  This means that all ponies have some amount of latent magic within them, but only horned ponies can cast spells.  The logical assumption here is that all ponies can have their magical imprint, katra, or whatever you want to call it, removed and transferred.  So, getting to the point, it makes sense that Starlight could swap their magic, and in so doing, their cutie marks would switch because the entirety of their magic was transferred, as it had been in Twilight's Kingdom.  (Twilight probably would have gotten one of their marks, had she not already had her own.)

It's important to note that having their magic transferred and marks switched in no way affected their talents.  This supports my theory that cutie marks are not ability augments that grant talent.  The Sisters got each other's marks, but that didn't make them good at each other's jobs.  Quite the opposite.  They sucked big time, and that was the point.  Just as in Magical Mystery Cure, having another's mark did not give them that talent.  Talent can defined merely as an ability to create neuron connections, memories, and muscle memory for a given skill faster and more easily than others.  Luna has a talent for dream manipulation.  Having her magic transferred didn't take that away, it merely took away her ability to do it at the moment.  Here's an example: I'm a talented figure skater.  If my feet were cut off, would I still have that talent?  Yes.  My brain still knows how to do it, and is able to learn it faster and easier than others.  If they invented Star Trek technology that could give me new feet, I could skate well again, because I still have that talent in my brain.  The Sister's talents were unaffected, because their talent is inherent in the physical, subatomic makeup of their brains.  Their magical imprints were merely transferred, temporarily disallowing them from performing their jobs.  Actually, this is only technically true of Luna's dream ability, an ability which no other pony seems to possess.  Celestia's job requires no magic that is specific to her.  Only talent.  The raising and lowering of the sun and moon is merely a feat of extreme telekinesis, and can be done by anypony sufficiently strong enough.  Proof of this is the fact that this job was performed by Starswirl and a council of unicorns before the job was passed to the Sisters.  This is found in The Journal of the Sisters.  I'm getting a bit off topic, here.  The point is simply that the cutie marks did not give them each other's talents, thus preserving my theory.

So...it turns out that it was a pretty good episode, and once I thought through it a bit, I liked it.  Daybreak was pretty cool.  I've often wondered if that would really be possible.  We have no way of knowing.  I've talked before about how Luna seems unique among all ponies, past and present, due to her ability to become NMM.  But perhaps the Sisters share this trait.  Perhaps Celestia has this ability too, but it's just never happened.  I do believe that there is something unique about the Sisters, setting them apart from all other alicorns.  The story of their parents and their birth is one that must be told, and probably never will.

There's a few things I still didn't like about the episode.  Foremost is the fact that they had the immature arguing scene.  Y'know, where they were yelling at each other and going, *mocking tone* "All you do is flitter about and blabbity blah!"  I just knew they were going to do that, and it really annoyed me.  I like the fact that they've made them real characters, with real person...*ahem*...ponyalities, but it seemed ridiculous to me that these millennia old beings, in their vast wisdom, would resort to childish bickering.  They can have trouble getting along, sure, but the immature bickering was absolutely cringy to me.  Did not like that.  Moreover, why in the hell did Celestia make pancakes for Luna every morning in the first place?  That made no sense.  After thousands of years, did Celestia not figure out that Luna sleeps during the day?!  I mean, come on, she knows Luna's bedtime is dawn, for friggin' sake, so why does she cook her breakfast AT HER BEDTIME??!  To everyone who has a spouse who works graveyard: do you fix them a short stack when they're on their way to bed?!  The hell?

I also think that Starlight's spell is ridiculously overpowered.  It's in keeping with the established canon in Twilight's Kingdom, but it still seems ludicrous that a unicorn can just swap a pony's magic willy nilly.  If it's that easy, then why doesn't some villain just do that?  The only way that this level of magic is acceptable to me if you take it as evidence of my headcanon that Starlight is in fact  the descendant of Starswirl, who obviously did a lot of work in this area.  I've even postulated that Starlight could be the daughter of Starswirl.  (We don't actually know for sure that he's dead.)  I would die happy if they did a

Game of Thrones spoiler

Tower of Joy R+L=J lineage reveal in the movie that shows Starlight to be the daughter of Starswirl.

So, moving on, the only other thing that ticks me off is this completely asinine idea, which only Twilight seems to have, that anypony not summoned by the map is utterly forbidden to go, help, or intervene in any way.  Where the F*CK did she get that idea??!!  Is it a RULE written down someplace?!  Is the map a f*cking TEST that ponies have to pass?!  Why does Twilight act as if the map will kill her if she gives Starlight a suggestion?  God damn, that really annoys me.  Like when Twilight was soooo bummed that she couldn't accompany Rainbow and Pinkie to Griffonstone; WHY THE HELL COULDN'T SHE GO AND JUST HANG OUT?!  Is the map going to shoot death rays at her if she goes?!  Does the map have a sentry eye that pops out and floats after ponies that break the rules and shoot laser beams at them?!  Dammit, I really hate that plot map. 

So, I had a lot of gripes, and a lot to discuss, but overall, I did like it, and I'm really glad that we had a Sister's spotlight.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

11 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Yeah, that makes me wonder whether the "Foal Free Press" title of the newspaper was intentional, or whether perhaps the animators reused a convenient newspaper asset and didn't notice or change the newspaper title. If it was the latter, then I wonder if they realized that viewers like us would take notice of little details like that and see what we can read into them!

Or maybe its a generic for a school newspaper? they seem to use a fairly old design of lithographic machine, maybe the "title page" block they typeset the front page into comes with that as standard rather than designing a new one for each school?

[Jeric 46,851]

13 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Sure. Although, all of that is only true for the statement "Celestia and Luna were pleased by Starlight's actions;" with an ethically contentious issue like this, I think it's valid to think they ought to have been less approving of Starlight's methods. 

I have to disagree with that premise. Utilitarianism is a legitimate ethical philosophy, and that philosophy what is demonstrated here. I mean, "The good of the many outweigh the good of the one or few" isn't considered a massive deviation on ethical thinking by scholars. I get it doesn't fit with your own personal values, but it is a legit school of thought. It's also one that rulers tend to consider very often. The two characters that give Starlight a pass probably are the two most likely to agree with Utilitarianism.

9 hours ago, Justin_Case001 said:

The Sisters got each other's marks, but that didn't make them good at each other's jobs.  Quite the opposite.  They sucked big time, and that was the point.  Just as in Magical Mystery Cure, having another's mark did not give them that talent. 

Luna and Tia didn't suck big time. In fact they both demonstrated success at times. It's a stretch to say that their difficulties were on par with the failures of the characters in MMC ... which didn't even line up with talent or elements as much as it did job. Rarity doing weather is not Loyalty or Rainbow Dash's actual talent. MMC is a bad episode to use to try and understand Cutie Marks in general because of this inconsistency. 

[Dusky Flare 11]

9 minutes ago, Jeric said:

I mean, "The good of the many outweigh the good of the one or few" isn't considered a massive deviation on ethical thinking by scholars. I get it doesn't fit with your own personal values, but it is a legit school of thought.

The problem is that in history Utilitarism is quite often used to justify cruelties against single persons or minorities ... for the greater good ... you know what I mean...

So despite that I'm fine with the basic idea of Utilitarism I really don't like the results coming out of it. For example killing the societal useless for unburden the bigger rest of the society... That might be a rather grave example, but it happened in history, didn't it?

So... although there was no disaster in the end, I agree very much, that SGs ways are questionable. For me the moral of this episode concerning SG is more like "Trust your guts. As long as you do something in good intention, it's most unlikely to come out bad in the end"...

And that, too, is not always the case.

 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

2 hours ago, Jeric said:

I have to disagree with that premise. Utilitarianism is a legitimate ethical philosophy, and that philosophy what is demonstrated here. I mean, "The good of the many outweigh the good of the one or few" isn't considered a massive deviation on ethical thinking by scholars. I get it doesn't fit with your own personal values, but it is a legit school of thought. It's also one that rulers tend to consider very often. The two characters that give Starlight a pass probably are the two most likely to agree with Utilitarianism.

The view that people have a fundamental right to ownership and control of their own bodies, and that violating that right without consent is wrong, is also one that is widely held, espoused, and practiced. I see that principle as the basis on which, for example, rape and slavery are nearly universally considered egregiously immoral. So I think that judging Starlight's actions using that moral framework is perfectly legitimate.

[Jeric 46,851]

39 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

The view that people have a fundamental right to ownership and control of their own bodies, and that violating that right without consent is wrong, is also one that is widely held, espoused, and practiced.

Is it though? I mean it is widely held, espoused and practiced in many countries, but ... let's be intellectually honest here ... it may not even be widely practiced by the majority of our species. I can still point to entire nations that disagree with you. Truth resists simplicity and all that good stuff.

Curiously, I agree with what you are saying if the implication was that the show was applauding rape. It isn't so it doesn't bother me. That line of thinking is bordering on absurd and is kinda neither here nor there. I definitely don't agree to the point where I would suggest that utilitarianism is inherently unethical (which is why I mentioned it).  

I'm personally not a utilitarian. My family has a higher place of honor in my heart than anyone else, so several thought experiments in philosophy tend to put me at odds with utilitarianism -- and would directly make me an evil bastard in the process. The good of them definitely outweighs everything else.

 

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

14 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Sure. Although, all of that is only true for the statement "Celestia and Luna were pleased by Starlight's actions;" with an ethically contentious issue like this, I think it's valid to think they ought to have been less approving of Starlight's methods.

They were not pleased in the beginning. This is is shown in the episode. They at the end said she made the right decision and were happy and better for it all. There is a big difference. Making the right choice does not always mean you will make everyone happy all the time. Realistically speaking, they for all we know may be somewhat peeved at her for it all the same despite everything, but recognize it was the right call. But all of that would be venturing into headcanon territory.

 

14 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I don't see how she shamed them or used them, but I think "violated" is more of a judgment call, because she did change their bodies without their consent and that can be seen as a violation. Some people do tend to speak too strongly about her, but if you think swapping cutie marks without consent is wrong, I don't see what else you'd call it.

Well the statement was not necessarily directed at you. But there are some who do equate what she did to shaming or using them, but that is neither here or there. As for violation... again, it goes to your own persona beliefs and reflects off of what i said before. I don't know what you would call it, it is up the viewer honestly... we don't have cutie marks and magical powers to swap them and as such we have nothing in real life to compare it to. We cannot build ethical cases based around cartoon shows with fantastical properties. We can try to compare it to something we have in real life as best we can, but it is really up to the viewer to decide how to place it. In my personal opinion, I would classify this example as educational.... but I cannot prevent someone from seeing it another way since normal morals and ethics do not apply, or at the very least are extremely difficult to argue. This discussion is evidence of that.

 

14 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Perhaps, but I at least wouldn't do it without consent, and I'd like to think that most people would agree with that.

I disagree. People are not nearly as complex as they try to pretend to be... they very simply do not want to be hurt (usually) and want to be understood (again, usually). There is no way to put the situation to the test obviously, but you can use this very forum for an easy answer to the hypothetical situation... A vast majority of these users have expressed the desire they wish they could make someone else understand, and I am willing to bet several people in this very thread wish they could make someone else within this thread see things from their point of view. Remember it does not hurt them in anyway, and is only temporary, as such while some would argue it could be a punishment, others can easily argue it is educational. We utilize all sorts of things this very day and age to teach people a lesson or help them understand something with varying degrees of success and sentiment, some with consent, others without, and we all either utilize them, or agree with them every day of our lives to varying degrees.

If there were a magic button on your computer or in your room right now that said "push me to swap situations (or whatever) for 24 hours" A great majority could not hit it fast enough, because they know that the likelihood of anyone consenting with their request for understanding would go unheeded. People everyday already ask for that consent over and over and are denied in some form or another.

Like I stated, this is all rather fantastical, and the show did not in anyway expect you to dig that deep, and I admittedly am taking it to much higher extremes. They simplified it into 2 characters had a problem, that could only be solved by making them see things from the others point of view. Therapy might have solved the problem, but you won't get that in 15 minutes of anything. Which brings us to Starlight's spell... yes she could have asked for consent, however that is its own debate right there whether they would have agreed or not. After all, both thought they were right and had no reason to consent... stubbornness is a thing after all and no one wants to be proven wrong. Include my points above.. plus it being a 23 minute cartoon show that needs to get to the point. To be fair, the episode could be re-written where she does ask and with some minor changes we would get the same results, That is hindsight though.

 

1 hour ago, Music Chart Fan said:

The view that people have a fundamental right to ownership and control of their own bodies, and that violating that right without consent is wrong, is also one that is widely held, espoused, and practiced. I see that principle as the basis on which, for example, rape and slavery are nearly universally considered egregiously immoral. So I think that judging Starlight's actions using that moral framework is perfectly legitimate.

Did you seriously just compare harmlessly swapping some marks on their ass temporarily so they could see how the others job was (in a cartoon show at that) to rape and slavery?

If you think those things are in anyway similar, all I can say is wow.

 

And yes, it is widely held, espoused and practiced everyday...to a degree. It is also ignored everyday by the very same people who practice it, whether by law or by moral code.

It is ignored when you put people in prison (We don't ask if they want to go or not)

Hold children in detention (Again, we don't ask if they want to or not)

Prevent them from drinking, having sex, smoking underage (It is their body, they own it, age is irrelevant it could be argued as long as they are able to consent)

Say no to them doing drugs (again, their body, it can be argued they can do what they want as long as they know the risks)

Prevent them from bullying or assaulting others (We are preventing them from controlling their own bodies and expressing their own feelings, as well as some apparently would argue hurting ourselves as a species)

Yes, all of these are ridiculous and extreme, and all of them have been or are still be argued by people today as violating somebodies rights somehow somewhere. Heck a couple of them are even floating around in the debate pit I believe. I cannot tell anyone where to draw the line for their own moral code about what is right or wrong, but I really don't see the horrible immoral cruelty being performed here in this situation considering everything made available to us.

[Dusky Flare 11]

I think neither of you is completely wrong.

But you will not solve ethical problems lots of philosophers couldn't solve decently in the last several hundreds of years, will you?

And... Wasn't it a cool episode anyway?